I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm.

see the point I'm trying to make again and again, does it _actually_ change the climb? ...... does it actually make it any easier?

see the point I'm trying to make again and again, does it _actually_ change the climb? Its not like adding bolts makes the holds and bigger or the rock have more friction. does it actually make it any easier?

So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite.

Who gives a flying fuck?

i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that.

i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things.

If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that.

Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure.

And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont,
*snip*

you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?).

Unless I'm missing something

(and I could be,

because

*snip*grizzled 40 year climbing veteran),

the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

Get yourself off!

does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes?

are you that fucking selfish?

And yes, I do climb trad.

Not as hard as my sport grade

but I've only been at it for the summer.

So yeah, I do both.

Had the same thing happen last year on a crag we developed.
If like us you ar ethe FA/Developer of the crag, Time to pull the crowbar out.

You do both but understand only one. I could explain, but you clearly do not have the frame of reference to comprehend, so I won't waste my typing on you anymore.

P.S. I'd offer you a beer, but I have a feeling you're too young to drink and I wouldn't want a good ol' Trad climber to be a bad influence in the Sport an Gym community.

*cough* troll *cough*
Hmmm, lets see... ummm, lots of people


Yeah, about those commas, well lack off. But hey, I'm sure you meant "don't


sport *wank* *wank*
I think you've been breathing chalk dust in the gym too long.

Yeeaaaahhhh.... [Dr.Evil]right[/Dr.Evil].... I'm guessing you've been at it somewhere between 2 and 5 years, most of your climbing is in the gym.

Well the only way to get experience is to ummm, you know, climb with gear.

Besides, my partner's 15 year old son and his sons best friend can afford gear... come to thing of his his son Kyle had built up his own rack just after his 14th B-day.

*Point invalid*

Ya, ummmm... you still trying to pat yourself on the back for that one? The whole witty feng shui comment... oh wait, what the hell is feng sway? Keep you funkness to yourself, just the though of what it might be is scary.

Clearly in this case you have ab-so-fuken-lutely no concept of ethics, and merely make an emotional, hot headed, and uninformed statement regarding something that is beyond you comprehension at this point.


Yep.

Yep.


*yawn*


*yawn*
HOLY SHIT! Call the doctor! I'm aging prematurely!



*yawn*

Back to the gym and sport wanking mindset.

*yawn*

Do some research on the history of climbing ethics, and write a 2000 word essay on the purity of the pursuit of climbing before you get back to me on this one. You sound young enough to sill be in grade school, it'll be good practice for you during the summer.

*time for a *


AAHHHHH! Tasty. Where was I? Oh, yes...

WTF! [image]http://www.twcenter.net/forums/images/smilies/emoticons/sign_wtf.gif[/image]


Oh, wait... I cheezetitted that one.

*yawn*

Next.



It's not a matter of ego. It is a respect issue; for the environment, the sport, and the first accentionists.


I could say you are selfish for letting others do ALL the work to establish climbing routes and crags, trail to the crag, the effort to ensure access is both secured and ensured... all without putting the effort in yourself.

I'm guessing you "just" started. Perhaps because you though it was "cool".


Spray.

*yawn*


Yep.



You do both but understand only one. I could explain, but you clearly do not have the frame of reference to comprehend, so I won't waste my typing on you anymore.

Have a happy slappy afternoon,

T_C

P.S. I'd offer you a beer, but I have a feeling you're too young to drink and I wouldn't want a good ol' Trad climber to be a bad influence in the Sport an Gym community.

Any opinion on this:



Jay

A crowbar is never the answer.

It leaves big nasty marks. There are much better, easier ways.

I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).

And if you are going to use slippery slopes with me, then as far as your leave no trace, well then shouldnt you just not be climbing at all? you erode the poor earth every time you make an approach, you polish each hand and foothold every time you use them. Holy christ, eventually every mountain everywhere will be nothing more than polished lumps of worthless goo!

No, its all about whats acceptible to each individual. All I'm trying to argue is that most people bitching and moaning about new bolts are doing so from a purely selfish standpoint. They dont want people who have put in less effort than them to be able to attain the same climbs. Yes they bitch and moan about erosion and asthetics and all that crap, but really for 92% of them, they are saying this because thats what was said to them, and it sounds good-they can keep the gumbies away from themselves AND not admit to being a selfish asshole. Now they are in the elite trad club and want to be just like daddy tradpants who taught them everything, so they continue spewing the lines without actually stopping to consider if thats how they truely feel themselves. Yes, these lines might even be partly true, just like your last girlfriend ended things because she felt like maintaining a long distance relationship was too hard (and it was), but most of it came from the fact that she couldnt stand the sight of you anymore and would rather be sucking on johnies dick instead. What did she tell you and herself? well the distance thing of course, who wants to admit to themselves or anyone else that they are a selfish prick?

Now of course I dont expect anyone here to, clearly everyone who slightly identifies with this has raised shields and loaded torpedoes, and maybe even fired a few (really? 13? cmon, you can do better, this is the internet!). And I guess its my fault for coming off so strong, but it just gets me when people spew forth massive loads of crap and everyone just kind of goes 'oh he sounds like he knows what hes doing, I'll just agree'. F-that.

And no, I'm not a gym rat or a sport boy. I climb it all and love all of it (except bouldering, dunno, just dont get it). I love trad and plan to do a ton more. I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm. I also climb at the gym because, well, I work, so I cant get out in the middle of the week.

So no really, duhh, say this.. your climbing a crack route 1 day... it's very hard fer you 2-day? then you see a hanger 2 clip instead of the crack~placement (easy way out)= no adventure )^:~ case closed please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.

So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite. Who gives a flying fuck? i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure. And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont, you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?). Unless I'm missing something (and I could be, because I'm not a grizzled 40 year climbing veteran), the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

Get over yourself! does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes? are you that fucking selfish?

And yes, I do climb trad. Not as hard as my sport grade but I've only been at it for the summer. So yeah, I do both.

Heres my point, why do YOU care if less committed climbers now have access? How does that degrade from YOUR experience? And if bolting a line makes it so a wheelchair bound climber can get up it, then hell yes bolt it!! I'd love to see that and be cheering them the fuck on the whole time!

Chalk, bolts, hanging draws (I'm assuming you mean the exceedingly few permanent draws installed on routes and not project draws). Seriously, defacements? thats your main point? The erosion, I'll give you that. Better access=more people=more erosion. But is that really YOUR reason for not liking bolts on your favorite trad route? Sure seems like we are worried about it getting popular, and we dont like to share now do we?

And ok, the 12guage wielding land owners do have a right to what goes on on their property, this is amerika, fuck yeah! so trespassing is still trespassing. But really, if we take away all the popularity that bolting would bring to classic routes, all the property owners' angst, when you see a bolt on your trad line, what are the real reasons that you get pissed? Is it really the tree hugging hippie in each of us whose spirit is dampend because of the bruising to mother nature's fragile essence, or is it our ego that cant stand the thought that we put in all this work to be able to climb this route this way, and now some punkass 12 year old with a rope and a bunch of draws can now do the same thing in a much less committing fasion?

I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).

And if you are going to use slippery slopes with me, then as far as your leave no trace, well then shouldnt you just not be climbing at all? you erode the poor earth every time you make an approach, you polish each hand and foothold every time you use them. Holy christ, eventually every mountain everywhere will be nothing more than polished lumps of worthless goo!

No, its all about whats acceptible to each individual. All I'm trying to argue is that most people bitching and moaning about new bolts are doing so from a purely selfish standpoint. They dont want people who have put in less effort than them to be able to attain the same climbs. Yes they bitch and moan about erosion and asthetics and all that crap, but really for 92% of them, they are saying this because thats what was said to them, and it sounds good-they can keep the gumbies away from themselves AND not admit to being a selfish asshole. Now they are in the elite trad club and want to be just like daddy tradpants who taught them everything, so they continue spewing the lines without actually stopping to consider if thats how they truely feel themselves. Yes, these lines might even be partly true, just like your last girlfriend ended things because she felt like maintaining a long distance relationship was too hard (and it was), but most of it came from the fact that she couldnt stand the sight of you anymore and would rather be sucking on johnies dick instead. What did she tell you and herself? well the distance thing of course, who wants to admit to themselves or anyone else that they are a selfish prick?

Now of course I dont expect anyone here to, clearly everyone who slightly identifies with this has raised shields and loaded torpedoes, and maybe even fired a few (really? 13? cmon, you can do better, this is the internet!). And I guess its my fault for coming off so strong, but it just gets me when people spew forth massive loads of crap and everyone just kind of goes 'oh he sounds like he knows what hes doing, I'll just agree'. F-that.

And no, I'm not a gym rat or a sport boy. I climb it all and love all of it (except bouldering, dunno, just dont get it). I love trad and plan to do a ton more. I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm. I also climb at the gym because, well, I work, so I cant get out in the middle of the week.

So no really, please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.

see the point I'm trying to make again and again, does it _actually_ change the climb? Its not like adding bolts makes the holds and bigger or the rock have more friction. does it actually make it any easier? If you go and climb it trad (which you can still 100% do), NO! If you want to climb it with all or some bolts, yes! Everyone is happy! (although aparantly not).

And are you really trying to argue that slamming pitons into the wall and then taking them out so the next person slams their own into the wall a bit down from yours and takes theirs out is the same as putting in a bolt that gets used thousands of times and can fairly easily be replaced (in the same spot no less!) causing no further scaring of the rock? really? cuz thats what it sounds like to me. Really in the long run it could be argued that bolting has less impact than gear (even gear scars the rock when it rips out right?).

It only lowers the challenge for those who WANT the lower challenege. The difference between this and all of your examples is that yours force EVERYONE onto the lower challenge. Bolting, if not for the egos involved, allows both parties to be happy.

The other poster was comparing placing pitons to placing bolts. I was showing the difference.

Yes I really do trad climb, Yes I know about cams and nuts and no they typically dont scar the rock, but they can, and they do occasionally rip out and scar the rock. Not very much, but much less so yarding on bolts.

Yes I read all these posts, but I never get any good answers. The only one that made me think about it for a minute was about 100-300 years from now. Everyone just responds 'ugh you dont get it, but I'm just not going to explain it to you', because either they are lazy or cant because they dont have any good arguments (I'm leaning towards the later).

you_can_still_climb_a_bolted_trad_line_only_using_trad_gear. What I dont get it how this suposedly 'ruins the line' when in fact nothing has changed for the trad climber. The rock is still there, its exactly the same, the only thing that has changed is he has more options open to him. Aparantly options are bad?

and just saying a point is asinine is asinine. Come up with intelligent logical arguments other than 'because I say so' or 'its tradition!'. Its almost like arguing with religious zealots!

No I dont have a ton of experience, I've never said I have. But that dosnt stop me from making a valid point does it? Just because it goes against the grain dosnt mean its not worth exploring.

Convince me I'm wrong using valid justifiable points and I'll concede, until then, I'm having fun at the end of an otherwise mind dulling work day!

UMM~,

Did someone say TROLL?
HONESTLY peeps.... would anyone really DRILL? NEXT TO A 30$ USED CAM PLACEMENT? HMM WHAT1 would motivate this kinda CRAP!
lets see here.....?
I see many "excuses" here,but do 2 my "poor" typing/spelling I will get us "going" w/t THE TOP 3 REASONS I BOLTED A CRACK

#1 sport~weeniew/t an ego prob-" @ the coffeeshop s~weenie has 2 tell he/she cohorts that they climbed a 5.9 2-day on lead! )^:

#2 sport~weenie has 2 much $/time on he/she hands now- s`weenie has a trustfund and has been reading rock n ice alot...buy drill go 2 cliff and "pervert" the nature of the rocks.

#3 sport~wennie CAN now climb 5.8 but, would NEVER "trust" a nut or an aiein 4 that matter... buys drill and gets to climb a crack on lead fer once....

So no really, duhh, say this.. your climbing a crack route 1 day... it's very hard fer you 2-day? then you see a hanger 2 clip instead of the crack~placement (easy way out)= no adventure )^:~ case closed please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.

Any opinion on this:



Jay

I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).

YEAH! what he said!

I honestly hope thats a troll... its just idiotic.

Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike. Get my drift?

That being said, the guy who was trying to lead the bachar-yerian all on gear is ridiculous.

That being said, the guy who was trying to lead the bachar-yerian all on gear is ridiculous.

You advocated adding bolts for increased access. I was merely pointing out that your logic can be extended. If we are going to add bolts to trad lines so that all can enjoy, then why don't we add handi-capped access to remote alpine waterfalls? how about everest? (wait, no, that's been done) my point was merely, how come you, mr. elitist sporto, (look i can put you on your high horse and call you elitist as well), need your routes to be bolted in order to climb, that's mighty elitist requiring all of your routes to have bolts, why not save some lines for people who prefer other styles? maybe the trad climbers aren't as sporty and gymnastic as you, and maybe they can't pull down as hard. should we deny them of routes so you can have your precious bolted lines?

of course not, it's silly either way to claim routes in honor of a style. styles coexist, some crags have been developed as one or the other, there are typically many good reasons, no placements, an abundance of placements, loose rock, run-outs, etc. what does matter is the local community. what style do they prefer? what style is the accepted style at the crag? that's what to follow.

why don't i just walk into a gym and say that my accepted style is slopers, and change all routes i want to climb to be all slopers, then yell elitists at the crimp fanatics who all get their crotchety panties in a twist. i know, cause that's dumb. i walked into a scene where i am not part of the community and changed pre-established things to meet my needs, who is elitist?

If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure...the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike.

And yes bolts on a route absolutely change the character of the route. As t2stone writes

^^i missed that earlier, but this is one time t2stone actually got it right.

And yes bolts on a route absolutely change the character of the route. As t2stone writes

Actually, I wrote that. It got quoted incorrectly.