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Hidden Cracks Roof, Possible? Rating?
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toofreakinsexy1


Aug 11, 2008, 6:09 PM
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Hidden Cracks Roof, Possible? Rating?  (North_America: United_States: Virginia: North_Western: Hidden_Rocks)
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Due to Horst publishing a 400 page terd, the roof at the very far end of Hidden Cracks has a 5.12? rating... Soooo.... Has anyone done it? Know the actual rating? I'm maxed out right now at 12a/b so I wanna know if it'll be a good proj (ya I'm cool, I just totally left out the last part of that word) or a spank-me-fest, any help would be awesome, thanks


chossmonkey


Aug 12, 2008, 4:31 AM
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toofreakinsexy1 wrote:
Due to Horst publishing a 400 page terd, the roof at the very far end of Hidden Cracks has a 5.12? rating... Soooo.... Has anyone done it? Know the actual rating? I'm maxed out right now at 12a/b so I wanna know if it'll be a good proj (ya I'm cool, I just totally left out the last part of that word) or a spank-me-fest, any help would be awesome, thanks
5.12? is way to hard if you are maxed out at 12a/b.


toofreakinsexy1


Aug 12, 2008, 6:52 PM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Hidden Cracks Roof, Possible? Rating? [In reply to]
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K, maybe I was too modest, I project 12d/13a, climb a few 12b/c's in a day, and can climb 11d/12a all day. I personally don't consider hangdogging on top rope for 45 minutes on a route before you get it 'climbing' at that grade. What I want to know is if anyone's climbed this roof and knows. 12? from a guidebook looks more like he stood under the roof and stared at it until a number popped in his head and he wrote it down. 12? could be 11a, could be 13d. So could someone reply who's actually climbed there?


Partner angry


Aug 12, 2008, 7:00 PM
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How long is the roof and what size are the jams.

Funny thing is, I got skunked a few days ago on a roof crack in Colo that has never been climbed, yet the guide author named and rated it. He missed it by a mile.


drumminmachine62


Aug 12, 2008, 8:28 PM
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A friend of mine pulled this roof for the likely first ascent earlier this year.
It is certainly not 5.12 We climbed strait up the orange face just above the large ledge and pulled the roof just to the left of the widest part. We think it is 5.10+. We plan on going back and working on climbing the widest section of the roof. We have scoped the holds and it looks like hard 5.11 maybe, but again certainly not 5.12.

toofreakin, i'd be glad to show you around some harrisonburg area crags and perhaps direct you at some harder climbs and or projects that might actually be worth your time.


toofreakinsexy1


Aug 15, 2008, 1:29 PM
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Really? Alright cool, well i guess it's not quite a project then... lol, looks fun though. Thanks for the info, and ya if you know some better places to go than I'd love to check em out. I live all the way out in Norfolk so Hidden's damn near the closest thing we've got (At three hours away) I'm originally from AZ so unfortunately all I really know of VA is through Horst's guide... so I know nothing :) Got any spots to recommend?


drumminmachine62


Aug 15, 2008, 8:09 PM
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The horst guide is a good starting point but really its pretty shitty. If you're in the area any time stop by the local outfitter in harrisonburg and pick of a copy of lester zook's guide to climbing in rockingham. it has real information on climbing at hone quarry (hidden rocks), rawley springs, and other surrounding areas. you might even be able to contact him through www.wildguyde.com and get him to send you out a copy.

it must suck to be out in the flatlands. the harrisonburg area climbing is certainly good, especially rawley springs and hidden rocks in the fall. there is also old rag if youre into a little more adventure and 2nd mountain, the local bouldering 'hotspot'....by hotspot i mean maybe a dozen people climb there with any regularity in the winter.

hit me up if i can help any other way. i don't usually like to do stuff to bring more people to the area to our small crags, they see enough irresponsible use and mistreatment from hunters, kids, and hikers. but i'm always glad to have other responsible climbers around.


toofreakinsexy1


Aug 19, 2008, 7:41 AM
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Thanks a bunch drumminmachine, I'll definately let you know next time i'm in the area, and I'll check out that guide. You won't have to worry about me and bringing crap along with me, I've seen Franklin... no place deserves to look like Franklin... lol


roninthorne


Aug 19, 2008, 8:33 AM
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Always thought it was funny that the H'burg climbers had to drive all the way to WV to birddog me an' Dr. Goodwhack in search of new crags when Hidden Roofs was sitting there just waiting for more lines... not to mention all the untouched boulders out there in Rawley. Oh, well... guess it's a matter of motivation. Way to go, workin' on that stuff.

Final authority on what has and has not been done in Hidden would be cragmasterp, also known as Paul Sullivan, the areas primary developing force.

drumminmachine62 wrote:
The horst guide is... pretty shitty.

Sorry, but I had to amend/edit that to accurately reflect reality.

drumminmachine62 wrote:
If you're in the area any time stop by the local outfitter in harrisonburg and pick of a copy of lester zook's guide to climbing in rockingham. it has real information on climbing at hone quarry (hidden rocks), rawley springs, and other surrounding areas.

Be aware that pretty much everything listed as a project in the ROCKingham guide was actaully completed before Mike Artz got off his arse to check the grades and the damned thing finally made it to press.

(Luv ya, Mike, but DUDE!.... TWO YEARS!?!?!?)


Having once lived in Rawley Springs for the better part of 4 yrs, and climbed at every crag listed in Lester's book (and more that aren't), I gotta say don't forget to check out the Rawley Aretes, which have nver been thoroughly developed, as well as the un-named ridge between the Maze/Apetizers and the Aretes.

Also, for some serious aerobic conditioning and bouldering, try hiking and bouldering the 4WD loop from 2nd Mtn around through Kline's Hacking and back down to Dictum in the winter or late fall... lotsa unrepeated problems back in there and the views are nothing short of spectacular. If you park in Rocky Run, you can even hit some problems on the way down off of Dictum on the old ATV trail, and the approach to 2nd is entirely on NFS land.

Regarding the way Franklin looks, feel free to come join us this Labor Day weekend for trailwork and climbing... nothing like chipping in to maintain the local crag to separate you from all the rest of the crowd which seems to give little more than lip service and impact.

(This post was edited by roninthorne on Aug 20, 2008, 2:50 PM)


cragmasterp


Aug 19, 2008, 9:37 AM
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Re: [toofreakinsexy1] Hidden Cracks Roof, Possible? Rating? [In reply to]
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we used to top rope that ole roof back in the day(late 80's). you are talking about the roof just left of Welcome to Hidden, right? it is kinda just a boulder problem in the sky, starts on a high ledge. left, right and middle variations exist, although I don't think we ever pulled the middle route. We climbed or at least tried to climb every inch of that cliff.

Welcome to Hidden and Pegasus are very good, from bottom to top. Try working those two out if you haven't already.

Enjoy!


toofreakinsexy1


Aug 19, 2008, 9:57 AM
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Hey Ron, just wanted to say if you're one of the people who I see all over this site trying to clean up Franklin, thanks for the effort, seriously. I took a trash bag with me the first time I went (Only been twice) and filled it from the walk from the car to the cliff base, lol. I'd love to join you labor day, but unfortunately I'm Navy and the government decided I needed to be floating off the coast of VA for month starting next week. Good stuff? Dear God, no. Franklin's a little drive for me, about 4 hours, otherwise I'd be there a lot more often.


toofreakinsexy1


Aug 19, 2008, 10:00 AM
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Thanks for the insight cragmaster, I've got another curiosity question for a long time climber of the area... Why so few bolts? And why chopped bolts on several of the Lower Hidden routes? Some of those lines scream sport face climbing, yet we have to set up a TR on em. Trad Enthusiasts? Bolt eating bacteria in the area? :)


roninthorne


Aug 20, 2008, 3:22 PM
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yo, tfs-

Thanks for doing your part as a continuing end of the Mission Accomplished... of course, that was five years ago, but I guess it's never too late to keep Virginia safe from WMDs... or is that GWB...?

ANYWAY... no prob... gimme a call/email if yer ever headed this way from the flats and we can hook you up on some fine new lines at Franklin...

As for the bolts thing, while I would never pretend to speak for cragmasterp or be worthy to do so, I can answer some of that question, at least as far as the chopped bolts-

1) The line bolted and subsequently chopped was put up where other, bolder climbers had gone before using thin gear and large cojones.

2) The line was also put up using very bogus homemade gear (torch cut angle iron, I seem to recall, and some sort of welded horrorfest interpretation of a cold shut on a piece of plate iron for anchors), which was stupid, since bolt hangers were available at Wilderness Voyagers (the aforementioned outfitter in H'burg), as well as through catalogs like Mtn Gear.

3) The bolts were quality (Hilti PowRBolt 3s... I still use 'em), but they had been hacksawed off, confounding any attempt to see just what length of bolt one was trusting to keep one's tender carcass from impacting the native soil, and indicating to practised bolters that perhaps too long a bolt had been used for the hole drilled. Said method of adressing the mistake left a loverly razor edge to slice open subsequent climbers' flesh in the event of an unfortunate fall.

A friend of mine (who no longer climbs or lives in the area and shall remain forever nameless) let this comedy of errors eat at him (as it did all of us who frequented the area and knew how bolting should be done) for several weeks before showing up at the door of my humble cabin in Rawley Springs one rainy morning with a huge, evil grin and a knotted length of tubular webbing, upon which dangled the offending gear. The Bolter in Question had since replaced 2 or 3 of the homemade horrors with Metolius hangers, 'tis true, but the route was still bolted over an existing trad line, without permission, and besides, the deed was already done. I sighed, looked at my friend, and said "You do know that everyone is going to think I did this, don't you?", whereupon his evil grin widened and transformed into a truly diabolical laugh.

"That's the best part of all! " he replied, stepping through the door as my significant other emerged from the boudoir clad in little except a mass of tangled blonde hair, her eyes wide with mischief and wonder. "You have an alibi!"

There was singing and dancing, angst and coffee, suspicion and vituperation was served all 'round the climbing comunity in equal measure, the 2 or 3 real SS hangers went on to adorn new lines out west, and the rest, as they say, is history.

But wait... you said there were chopped bolts on several of the Lower Hidden Routes... is there no longer a bolt protecting the beginning of Mike and Eddie's Roof or Snowblower? If not, maybe you need to ask Mr. Zook about the fate of those bolts, and the pitons he removed from the upper faces and at the top of Li'l Bubba. Mr Zook was apparently under the impression that putting up all the routes did not give you either first vote on gear removal or controlling interest in the crag (at least that's what he said to me). Maybe he knows what happened to those bolts.

While you're at it, ask him why no one who doesn't pay him to climb gets to climb at Chimney Rock, another of the Valley's lost classics? Seems kind of a paradox that a guy who never served- and, of course, the people who pay him to set up topropes- are the only ones who gets to climb on land owned by the Veterans of Foreign Wars, neh? Maybe a Navy man could change all that, hmmmmm?

(Ronin sits back from the screen, rubbing his hands with an evil grin)

As for bolting anything else out there... well, it took almost an act of Congress to allow me to install the few top anchors that do exist and even then I was stopped far short of what should have been done to save the few remaining anchor trees on top. The NFS is still very twitchy about allowing any more Franklins to be created... and given the responsibility climbers have shown in taking care of that crag, not to mention the impact at the base of Hidden (you used to have to climb out through giant rhododenron to do those routes... now there's a 10' wide dead zone around the base of most of the crag), can you blame them?

(This post was edited by roninthorne on Aug 20, 2008, 3:37 PM)


drumminmachine62


Aug 20, 2008, 8:43 PM
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Re: [roninthorne] Hidden Cracks Roof, Possible? Rating? [In reply to]
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Ronin, there is indeed still a bolt protecting the lower crux of snowblower ( as well as one other mid route ) as well as what looks like a homemade cold shut at the start of Mike and Eddie's roof. There is also still a lone rusted angle 2/3 the way up on little bubba.

edited: this information is current to about a week ago when i was out there last. i don't think anyone has chopped anything since then.


(This post was edited by drumminmachine62 on Aug 20, 2008, 8:44 PM)


toofreakinsexy1


Aug 20, 2008, 9:47 PM
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Great story man, good to know how these things come about when you're sitting there climbing under them wondering. I was wondering specifically about Toprope This, and Mike and Eddie's Roof about the chopped bolts, and someone lead that with thin passive huh? Cahones indeed.... I asked specifically because while I was climbing those routes I was thinking "Chopped bolts? Why? There's no trad placements here!" lol, it's funny how some routes that are "trad lead" and therefore aren't allowed to be bolted weren't really trad lead, they were free soloed, only stopping every once in a while to put a mute peice of gear in that if you fell would only a loving ping noise as it was ripped from it's "placement". Take Bachar Yerien for instance, did you read that article about it almost being lead with only gear?? So what happens when it's done? Do we chop the 9 bolts in 500 freakin feet because it's been "trad lead" in the same "free solo only harder" manner? I mean shit, it's impressive but... I wanna climb it too Cool lol


roninthorne


Aug 24, 2008, 7:13 PM
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If you wanna lead B/Y, or anything of that nature, the only answer is "Cowboy up!" Grabbing a bolt gun by way of substitution for cajones is lame... justifying any act as "for the good of everyone" when you are really only doing it for yourself (and kudos for your honesty about that) is something most religious nuts have covered pretty well... let's leave them to it and keep that kinda shite outta the climbing world.

I'm just explaining the history of Hidden, neither cursing nor condoning the chop, although I think that act prevented the entire place being turned into a series of two-to-four bolt routes, which, along with the inevitable exponential impact, would have been more of a travesty than requiring greater-than-average-sized stones to lead the routes on gear, no matter how thin. From bolting Hidden to putting in bolts instead of reaching for brass and toughing it out on Seneca... where do you draw the line? We don't need any more Bubba Cities...

Someday someone is gonna come along and find a lot of the things Dr Goodwhack and I have done ground up out in the backcountry in WV, and they'll either say "Cool mixed route... man, those cats the Punishers were crazy!", and maybe start working towards the place where they can find that kind of crazy in themselves, with the possibility of repeating the route, as is.

Or they'll talk about how unfair it was to put those routes out of reach of the common herd, retrobolt a runout section of psycho pro, and come back to find some old guy hanging on a static line snapping off their bolts, chuckling as he tucks free bolt hangers into his gear bag, and asking "How do you like me now?"

There is simply too much rock in the world, too much of it untouched and easily reached, to EVER justify putting bolts on someone else's route without permission. There is NO excuse for doing a route with home-made gear and badly-placed bolts, and it is sheer egomania and pure insanity to expect a route that includes both transgressions to remain in place for very long.



BTW... have any of you eager young tigers hiked on up the creek and looked at Hidden Roofs?


cragmasterp


Aug 24, 2008, 8:09 PM
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Don't add any bolts to any route at lower hidden. Every inch of that crag has been climbed before and most of it on lead. Its a small local crag and TR'n has always been the norm. once you get bored with that you will then lead the routes just like we did, many times over.

if you want to clip bolts climb somewhere else. or clip the couple bolts on the few mixed lines that are there already.

Try leading the first crux of Snowblower past the bolt, then step right and climb past the fixed pin on Streamroller. Thats a fun link-up that we always used to lead. bring a #2 camalot for the move stepping up to clip the old lost arrow. it was still there a year ago when i was in the area.

if you wanna "climb it too" then you better start saving your lunch money for some gear. LOL


toofreakinsexy1


Aug 24, 2008, 9:06 PM
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Ya, ya I know the whole ego thing behind not bolting other people's routes or chopping where you're not supposed to. Everyone's too worried about it, I have as much fun climbing a route on TR as I do leading it, trad or sport, no matter what the rating (as long as it's within my reach of course :) The climbing through the route and experiencing it's unique moves and rock is what climbing is to me. I've never gotten to the top of a climb and said to myself "Ya know, that would've been funner if my life was threatened more". Leading or TR, I get up the rock the way I can most conveniently do so, and I enjoy the climb.

If everyone could get over themselves, the climbing community would improve.


roninthorne


Aug 25, 2008, 7:15 PM
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tfs- I don't think anyone who does R/X routes "enjoys them more because (their) life (is) threatened more".

I think we enjoy them because we have the deepest love of climbing possible, driven by a desire to push our own boundaries, balanced with a belief in our own abilities and tempered by successful control of distraction on other routes of that nature.

In other words, we have "gotten over ourselves"... and on to climbing.

As far as not bolting other people's routes being an "ego thing", you need to spend a few more decades searching and finding new crags, sacrificing weeks and months of building trails to them, then investing hundreds of dollars and thousands of hours cleaning and creating routes, to truly grasp how little of that is "ego" and how much of that is "love". You ain't gonna give my kid (or anyone else's) a tattoo or a piercing until one of us agrees to it, and since the stone can't say "no" or prevent bolts, it's up to the FAs and the crag's caretakers to maintain that standard. Chopping is the last resort where communication and respect have failed.

Build trails, put up lines, invest your own time and money in replacing anchors and maintaining the places you climb, and join The Club... the people who truly have a say in what happens and who work to see that everyone has a crag to go to in the first place.

Or do nothing, just go climbing, and remain one of the self-entitled folks who are always bitching about the "elitist" or "holier than thou" (my personal fave) attitudes of people who work harder on an average climbing day than most "just for fun" climbers do at any point in their lives.


drumminmachine62


Aug 25, 2008, 9:32 PM
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I have been up to Hidden Roofs a couple of times. I was wondering what exactly has been done up there. I'd be interested in a little history cragmasterp. It definitely looks like the crag has some untapped potential. I am currently living in Harrisonburg. If the gas prices stay as high as they have been Hone Quarry and Franklin may be as far as i'm going to get to climb this fall.

It does annoy me, I can recall many times overhearing other climbers talking at hidden about how this route or that route would be 'a great sport climb'. Good thing none of those asshats have ever brought their bolting gear.


toofreakinsexy1


Aug 25, 2008, 10:31 PM
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Climbing IS just for fun man, relax there 'elitist' ;) Did that make you feel special?? Sure hope so, it's your favorite.


roninthorne


Sep 6, 2008, 10:26 AM
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Never said climbing wasn't just for fun, tfs... read the post again.

I divided climbers into "just for fun"- many of whom assuage their consciences with a yearly check to the Access Fund in lieu of ever raising a hand themselves, and those who create the crags in the first place, maintain the trails, replace the old/obsolete gear, and assure access through continuing interaction with landowners, NPS/NFS and law enforcement.

Nothing wrong with either approach, except that one creates and preserves crags, and one simply uses them up and moves on to the next. Like anything you do "just for fun", climbing comes with certain responsibilities, no matter if you put up the lines in the first place, or simply come along to enjoy someone else's hard work. Those responsibilities include (but are not limited to): honoring the choices of the FAs re:gear, practicing LNT to the greatest degree possible, and being vocal/active about educating uninformed climbers around you who may not be quite up to speed on their ethics or safety parameters.

Drumminmachine- Go get 'em... and have a blast!


mikeartz


Jul 25, 2011, 1:46 PM
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I realize my reply is a bit dated but what the heck. To answer the questions about the roofs, there are two crags at Hidden Roofs. There's the main Hidden Roof crag which is upwards of 70 feet high. Just upstream is a very low roof crag with two cracks. I aid climbed both of them with Eric Anderson in 1983. I also freed the lip part of the right crack (10+). To my knowledge, neither crack has been completely freed. The main Hidden Roof crag has at least two climbs. I aided out the seam in the center of the main roof in 1983 with Eric. Kris Kline did a route that passes the roof on the left. I doubt that anything else has been done or at least reported.

With regards to the history of the place. Kris Kline was the first rock climber to visit Hidden crags around 1981 or 82. He showed it to me shortly after he "discovered" it. We top-roped or bouldered everything first. Then we led everything after we got bored. Lower Hidden was the only place that ever got some bolts and pins. I don't recall who put them in but it wasn't me.


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