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swaghole


Aug 18, 2008, 5:40 AM
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Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10
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I need help deciding on what crampons to buy. It's time to upgrade my old Terminators to something more modern.

I am looking for a technical crampon for waterfall ice that will fit well on all my boots (Nepa Evos, Trango Extreme Evo Light and Lowa Civetta). My current poons are old DMM Terminators. I need to replace the front points so it's a good excuse to buy something new. Plus these poons are a bitch to adjust when I swap betweens boots. You need to dismantle the damn thing to lengthen or shorten them.

I've narrowed down my selection to the BD Cyborg, Grivel Rambo 4 or G14, or Petzl M10. I am looking for some pros and cons on these models. The last good comparison review I found on the web is 5 years old http://www.climbing.com/.../equipment/crampons/

Some of the features I am looking for are:
-easily adjustable so I can swap between boots
-cheap repalcement front points (I've got some Grivel Ice tools and the pics are fraking expensive - hope the poons are cheaper)
-Mono point configuarion (where you don't have to buy extra parts or have a degree in mechanical engineering to figure out)
-Antibot plates included
-Heel bail adjusts for different heel height.
-Pretty color that won't clash with my super hero unitard



(This post was edited by swaghole on Aug 18, 2008, 6:34 AM)


crackers


Aug 18, 2008, 6:08 AM
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Re: [swaghole] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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I'd go for the G14s or the M10s. I haven't really used the Cyborgs (ie, used them once at a demo), but I've got more faith in Grivel and Petzl for some unknown and totally irrational reason. YMMV.

The Rambos are too much crampon for me. I'm not doing only water ice, and I don't feel rich enough right now to justify having multiple sets of crampons.

Following the advice of a "friend", I bought a set of the G14s. The antibott is really nicely integrated. It is simple to change out the front points. I haven't used these long enough to trash the points, but my experience with Grivel suggests that their crampon points last a long time for me.

All the above said, pricing for the Grivel products is a bit crazy here in North America right now. The Petzl 'poon isn't all that to me, and doesn't fit my (size 46 la sports and scarpas) boots as well. But, availability and price do matter...


(This post was edited by crackers on Aug 18, 2008, 9:45 AM)


tigerlilly


Aug 18, 2008, 7:57 AM
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Re: [crackers] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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The antibot sold separately for nearly $40 for the M10's, included on the G14's. I opted for the M10's anyway because they fit my boots better.

Kathy


granite_grrl


Aug 18, 2008, 8:09 AM
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Re: [swaghole] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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I bought the Rambo 4s for my husband last fall for his bday. They fit his boots like crap, would have taken major adjustments to get them to fit well. They were OK on my boots, but I still probobly would have tweaked them a little. They were also very narrow, which didn't work for his big feet and barely worked for my size 42 feet.

We returned them in the end.

I have the Cyborgs and like them, but they're not the end all and be all of crampons either. But I will say they are pretty easy to adjust between different boots and look like they fit the rest of your requirments too.

I have no comments on the other crampons.


Crimsonghost


Aug 18, 2008, 2:42 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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I would buy the G14's - the anti balling plates are the best, even in wet snow they stay clear. I have a pair of old M10's and they're ok, but a real pain to adjust. The idea of being able to adjust the angle and length of the frontpoints might sound nifty, but it's an utter ballache in practice - difficult enough in the home, impossible when outdoors. The Rambo's are pretty hardcore and I'm sure they're great for super technical climbs with short walk-ins, but no good for long alpine stuff. Also, they have a completely flat profile which means they won't fit your boots well if you have a curved sole unit. I've not used the Cyborg's but they seem very nice - I would find a store that has them and the G14's, take your boots along and see which mates up best with the sole unit. Cheers.


crackers


Aug 19, 2008, 6:24 AM
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Re: [Crimsonghost] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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another thought...get the newmatics.


swaghole


Aug 19, 2008, 6:58 AM
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Re: [crackers] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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crackers wrote:
another thought...get the newmatics.

Are you sure about that? For WI, I always thought that the metal toe bail is better. More solid kicking and less movement.
I've never had a problem with the toe bails on my boots - just with the heel bail. But that because they did not adjust very well.


stymingersfink


Aug 19, 2008, 10:54 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
I bought the Rambo 4s for my husband last fall for his bday. They fit his boots like crap, would have taken major adjustments to get them to fit well. They were OK on my boots, but I still probobly would have tweaked them a little. They were also very narrow, which didn't work for his big feet and barely worked for my size 42 feet.

We returned them in the end.

I have the Cyborgs and like them, but they're not the end all and be all of crampons either. But I will say they are pretty easy to adjust between different boots and look like they fit the rest of your requirments too.

I have no comments on the other crampons.

Climbed on the cyborgs last year, seemed to do ok. Fit my Nepal Tops ok as well. That, combined with some semblance of technique meant I didn't kick a crampon off all season.

That said, i am less than thrilled about the lack of adjustability in projecting the frontpoint further forward as I was able to do with the predecessor to this crampon. Being able to move the front-point forward gives me a little more life to my front-points, as I can extend them as they wear.

I like the fact that they come with anti-bots installed.

I've thought about purchasing a new pair, but since I can borrow a pair from a rental stash, I'll probably just climb on them for another season. I doubt they'll hold me back as much as my work schedule will though.


chossmonkey


Aug 19, 2008, 12:02 PM
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Re: [swaghole] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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The Rambo4's suck for adjustability, if you can even get them to fit your boots. You need a wrench to adjust the size. You will probably need a hammer to make them fit your boots.


swaghole


Aug 20, 2008, 5:44 AM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
The Rambo4's suck for adjustability, if you can even get them to fit your boots. You need a wrench to adjust the size. You will probably need a hammer to make them fit your boots.

I think I'll forget about the Rambos. From what I've seen, they only come in mono point configuration. I'd like to be able to swap between mono and double points.

I am not sure about the cyborgs either. I remember reading a post about the cyborgs titled "Putting my mothaf%$@&* poons on mono". Still laughing at that oneSmile
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=1783477

So I guess I've narrowed down the choice between the M10 and G14.


tigerlilly


Aug 20, 2008, 7:38 AM
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Re: [swaghole] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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swaghole wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
The Rambo4's suck for adjustability, if you can even get them to fit your boots. You need a wrench to adjust the size. You will probably need a hammer to make them fit your boots.

I think I'll forget about the Rambos. From what I've seen, they only come in mono point configuration. I'd like to be able to swap between mono and double points.

I am not sure about the cyborgs either. I remember reading a post about the cyborgs titled "Putting my mothaf%$@&* poons on mono". Still laughing at that oneSmile
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=1783477

So I guess I've narrowed down the choice between the M10 and G14.

Putting antibots on M10s is like juggling a porcupine. Dunno if you have to take them off to switch from mono to dual. I'd hate to ever have to do it again. Other than that, and the weight, I'm happy with them.

Kathy


(This post was edited by tigerlilly on Aug 20, 2008, 7:39 AM)


chossmonkey


Aug 20, 2008, 8:54 AM
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Re: [swaghole] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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swaghole wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
The Rambo4's suck for adjustability, if you can even get them to fit your boots. You need a wrench to adjust the size. You will probably need a hammer to make them fit your boots.

I think I'll forget about the Rambos. From what I've seen, they only come in mono point configuration. I'd like to be able to swap between mono and double points.

I am not sure about the cyborgs either. I remember reading a post about the cyborgs titled "Putting my mothaf%$@&* poons on mono". Still laughing at that oneSmile
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=1783477

So I guess I've narrowed down the choice between the M10 and G14.
That thread was just because Biner bought them second hand and the parts weren't all there.

You do need to cut the anti-balling plates to fit the mono, but that shouldn't be a big deal. You don't really need them anyway so you could leave them off if you don't want to cutout the slots.

I think Grivel steel is better than BD.


swaghole


Aug 20, 2008, 12:13 PM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
I think Grivel steel is better than BD.

I also think is stronger base on my experience with my ice tools. I've got some Grivel Takkoons and BD Vipers and can vouch that the Grivel picks resist much better when I accidentally chisel away at rock. However, I can buy Viper's Laser picks for half what I pay for the Grivels Cascade picks.

I'll chekc the price for replacement on the Cyborgs VS G14. Migth sway my decision.


AlexCV


Aug 20, 2008, 1:27 PM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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stymingersfink wrote:
That said, i am less than thrilled about the lack of adjustability in projecting the frontpoint further forward as I was able to do with the predecessor to this crampon. Being able to move the front-point forward gives me a little more life to my front-points, as I can extend them as they wear.
The flip-side is that BD front points can be bought for 10$/each instead of 100$/4 for the Petzl M10 points. (All prices from what I remember of MEC)


carabiner96


Aug 20, 2008, 2:32 PM
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Re: [AlexCV] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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I've got the cyborgs and la-la-love them. Front points are cheap, easy to adjust (once you cut the f*cking anti bot....there's a thread on here about that somewhere) and fit mist boots well. They rock out on my kaylands and are easy to adjust if you need to swap with a buddy.

They last a while too, they're what our climbing school uses to outfit groups.


stymingersfink


Aug 20, 2008, 3:28 PM
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Re: [carabiner96] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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carabiner96 wrote:
I've got the cyborgs and la-la-love them. Front points are cheap, easy to adjust (once you cut the f*cking anti bot....there's a thread on here about that somewhere) and fit mist boots well. They rock out on my kaylands and are easy to adjust if you need to swap with a buddy.

They last a while too, they're what our climbing school uses to outfit groups.
I got five seasons easy out of my bionics, only replacing the front points once. There's still plenty of life in them, but new stuff is just sooo damn sexxy!


vterinme


Aug 20, 2008, 5:22 PM
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Re: [swaghole] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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I like the Cyborgs a lot. I used them for roughly 40-50 days last year and can't say I notice anymore visible wear than all the other poons I've used in my life. I'd buy them again in a heart beat. They're easy to adjust, fit a multitude of boots, can handle long walks in with little annoyance, climb great, the bots are bots whatever show me a pair that truly work in all conditions.


the_climber


Aug 31, 2008, 9:56 AM
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Re: [swaghole] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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swaghole wrote:
crackers wrote:
another thought...get the newmatics.

Are you sure about that? For WI, I always thought that the metal toe bail is better. More solid kicking and less movement.
I've never had a problem with the toe bails on my boots - just with the heel bail. But that because they did not adjust very well.

The newmatic binding when adjusted correctly has less flex when kicking, more positive feedback through the boot, and is almost impossible to blow a 'poon while climbing. I have found that I have a greater sensitivity with them (ie. I can feel the placement better), the feed back is amazing, and adjust ability between boots is simply an easy task. I made the switch with much hesitation 3 seasons ago. I had previously been climbing on the CM Grade 8's, making the switch to the Grivel G14 Newmatics. Hands down it is the most versatile technical crampon I have used, and the only one on your list I would recommend to the average climber.

As for boot compatibility, they will work with the ones you listed. Depending on the size of your Nepal's some will say you will have to slightly bend the post on the toe bail, honestly I don't think it needs to be done.
One note about adjusting any newmatic style binding: Most adjust the binding too short then complain about not having enough frontpoint. This can easily be solved by adjusting the crampon properly. On a wire toe bail most want their poons and tight as they can get them. This does not work for a newmatic style binding for the simple fact that it is not how a newmatic style binding is designed to work. Adjust the length so that when the strap is tightened it draws the front of the crampon up to the toe of the boot; without the strap treaded through the toe piece the crampon should fall off. Also, don't tighten the strap too much.

As for durability of front points. Grivel simply has the best metal on the market. The only way you will be wearing out the front points where concern for cost would become an issue is if you are filing your front points EVERY time you head out, and filing them to a razor sharp edge that dulls and chips because you didn't tune them down after sharpening them. You front points will wear out due to excessive attention from a flat bastard file long before they will by regular use with routine "as needed" maintenance.


Or in short:

Forget the rest, get the G14's with a newmatic binding.





(Oh, and yes I have tried the Cyborg, Rambo Comps, Original Rambos, and M10's among many others to compare to the G14's)


(This post was edited by the_climber on Aug 31, 2008, 10:00 AM)


qwert


Sep 7, 2008, 4:24 AM
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Re: [swaghole] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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swaghole wrote:
-Pretty color that won't clash with my super hero unitard

Forget what all said, about performance and stuff, you need the cyborgs!
They are bright orange, with metallic sparkle in it!
will totall match the blue unitard
you be the hero of the party

and they climb well to, but thats just a minor consideration.

THEY ARE FUCKIN ORANGE WITH SPARKLES!!!!!!

qwert


brownie710


Sep 7, 2008, 12:44 PM
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Re: [swaghole] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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i'd say m-10's, they fit my nepal evo's great and my buddy hated his rambos. Plus if the antibot plate cost irks you just duct tape the bottoms, that's what most of the folks i climb with do and it works as well as the $40 plates


swaghole


Sep 15, 2008, 2:13 AM
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Re: [the_climber] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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the_climber wrote:
swaghole wrote:
crackers wrote:
another thought...get the newmatics.

Are you sure about that? For WI, I always thought that the metal toe bail is better. More solid kicking and less movement.
I've never had a problem with the toe bails on my boots - just with the heel bail. But that because they did not adjust very well.

The newmatic binding when adjusted correctly has less flex when kicking, more positive feedback through the boot, and is almost impossible to blow a 'poon while climbing. I have found that I have a greater sensitivity with them (ie. I can feel the placement better), the feed back is amazing, and adjust ability between boots is simply an easy task. I made the switch with much hesitation 3 seasons ago. I had previously been climbing on the CM Grade 8's, making the switch to the Grivel G14 Newmatics. Hands down it is the most versatile technical crampon I have used, and the only one on your list I would recommend to the average climber.

As for boot compatibility, they will work with the ones you listed. Depending on the size of your Nepal's some will say you will have to slightly bend the post on the toe bail, honestly I don't think it needs to be done.
One note about adjusting any newmatic style binding: Most adjust the binding too short then complain about not having enough frontpoint. This can easily be solved by adjusting the crampon properly. On a wire toe bail most want their poons and tight as they can get them. This does not work for a newmatic style binding for the simple fact that it is not how a newmatic style binding is designed to work. Adjust the length so that when the strap is tightened it draws the front of the crampon up to the toe of the boot; without the strap treaded through the toe piece the crampon should fall off. Also, don't tighten the strap too much.

As for durability of front points. Grivel simply has the best metal on the market. The only way you will be wearing out the front points where concern for cost would become an issue is if you are filing your front points EVERY time you head out, and filing them to a razor sharp edge that dulls and chips because you didn't tune them down after sharpening them. You front points will wear out due to excessive attention from a flat bastard file long before they will by regular use with routine "as needed" maintenance.


Or in short:

Forget the rest, get the G14's with a newmatic binding.

Grivel just went belly up in North America. I'll skip the G14 and go with the Cyborgs.


sungam


Sep 15, 2008, 2:50 AM
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Re: [qwert] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
THEY ARE FUCKIN ORANGE WITH SPARKLES!!!!!!
I think my compass needle just pointed north...


chossmonkey


Sep 15, 2008, 7:07 AM
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Re: [swaghole] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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swaghole wrote:
the_climber wrote:
swaghole wrote:
crackers wrote:
another thought...get the newmatics.

Are you sure about that? For WI, I always thought that the metal toe bail is better. More solid kicking and less movement.
I've never had a problem with the toe bails on my boots - just with the heel bail. But that because they did not adjust very well.

The newmatic binding when adjusted correctly has less flex when kicking, more positive feedback through the boot, and is almost impossible to blow a 'poon while climbing. I have found that I have a greater sensitivity with them (ie. I can feel the placement better), the feed back is amazing, and adjust ability between boots is simply an easy task. I made the switch with much hesitation 3 seasons ago. I had previously been climbing on the CM Grade 8's, making the switch to the Grivel G14 Newmatics. Hands down it is the most versatile technical crampon I have used, and the only one on your list I would recommend to the average climber.

As for boot compatibility, they will work with the ones you listed. Depending on the size of your Nepal's some will say you will have to slightly bend the post on the toe bail, honestly I don't think it needs to be done.
One note about adjusting any newmatic style binding: Most adjust the binding too short then complain about not having enough frontpoint. This can easily be solved by adjusting the crampon properly. On a wire toe bail most want their poons and tight as they can get them. This does not work for a newmatic style binding for the simple fact that it is not how a newmatic style binding is designed to work. Adjust the length so that when the strap is tightened it draws the front of the crampon up to the toe of the boot; without the strap treaded through the toe piece the crampon should fall off. Also, don't tighten the strap too much.

As for durability of front points. Grivel simply has the best metal on the market. The only way you will be wearing out the front points where concern for cost would become an issue is if you are filing your front points EVERY time you head out, and filing them to a razor sharp edge that dulls and chips because you didn't tune them down after sharpening them. You front points will wear out due to excessive attention from a flat bastard file long before they will by regular use with routine "as needed" maintenance.


Or in short:

Forget the rest, get the G14's with a newmatic binding.

Grivel just went belly up in North America. I'll skip the G14 and go with the Cyborgs.
Worthless without a link.

Where did you hear this and when did this happen?


swaghole


Sep 15, 2008, 7:29 AM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
swaghole wrote:
the_climber wrote:
swaghole wrote:
crackers wrote:
another thought...get the newmatics.

Are you sure about that? For WI, I always thought that the metal toe bail is better. More solid kicking and less movement.
I've never had a problem with the toe bails on my boots - just with the heel bail. But that because they did not adjust very well.

The newmatic binding when adjusted correctly has less flex when kicking, more positive feedback through the boot, and is almost impossible to blow a 'poon while climbing. I have found that I have a greater sensitivity with them (ie. I can feel the placement better), the feed back is amazing, and adjust ability between boots is simply an easy task. I made the switch with much hesitation 3 seasons ago. I had previously been climbing on the CM Grade 8's, making the switch to the Grivel G14 Newmatics. Hands down it is the most versatile technical crampon I have used, and the only one on your list I would recommend to the average climber.

As for boot compatibility, they will work with the ones you listed. Depending on the size of your Nepal's some will say you will have to slightly bend the post on the toe bail, honestly I don't think it needs to be done.
One note about adjusting any newmatic style binding: Most adjust the binding too short then complain about not having enough frontpoint. This can easily be solved by adjusting the crampon properly. On a wire toe bail most want their poons and tight as they can get them. This does not work for a newmatic style binding for the simple fact that it is not how a newmatic style binding is designed to work. Adjust the length so that when the strap is tightened it draws the front of the crampon up to the toe of the boot; without the strap treaded through the toe piece the crampon should fall off. Also, don't tighten the strap too much.

As for durability of front points. Grivel simply has the best metal on the market. The only way you will be wearing out the front points where concern for cost would become an issue is if you are filing your front points EVERY time you head out, and filing them to a razor sharp edge that dulls and chips because you didn't tune them down after sharpening them. You front points will wear out due to excessive attention from a flat bastard file long before they will by regular use with routine "as needed" maintenance.


Or in short:

Forget the rest, get the G14's with a newmatic binding.

Grivel just went belly up in North America. I'll skip the G14 and go with the Cyborgs.
Worthless without a link.

Where did you hear this and when did this happen?

http://ttp:/.../headlines.php?id=51

GNA SIGNS OFF
Grivel North America Over and Out

BY MARK TWIGHT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hail Citizens,

Grivel North America ceased distributing Grivel products on September 1st, 2008. We did our best over the last few years to keep the company alive but the flagging US economy and the Euro’s strength against the dollar prevented us from doing so.

Retail customers may contact the following dealers to purchase Grivel ice axes, crampons, helmets, ice screws, packs and some replacement parts while supplies remain.

The Mountaineer
http://www.mountaineer.com

Mountain Gear
http://www.mountaingear.com

Recreational Equipment, Inc.
http://www.rei.com

Second Ascent
http://www.secondascent.com

Mountain Equipment Co-Op (Canada only)
http://www.mec.ca

Warranty and repair issues must wait until Grivel determines how they will service the North American market in the future. Stand by for more information.

I thank the individuals who used Grivel ice tools and crampons and believed in the performance enough to keep doing so year after year.


Carolyn11


Sep 17, 2008, 7:20 AM
Post #25 of 56 (9526 views)
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Registered: Jul 29, 2007
Posts: 46

Re: [swaghole] Cyborg, G14, Rambo or M10 [In reply to]
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very sad news. just got my order of 360s from the mountaineer.

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