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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 8:56 AM
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Don't ask me what the application is...but the idea popped into my head "What if I have to haul my partner back up the rappel ropes before we touch down!?" It's late...I can't sleep. I tried to work it out with my gear on the living room floor...but I'm too tired to figure it out straight.
I'm figuring on two rappel ropes. Lets say the one rappeler is unconcious and locked off with an autoblock.
You also happen to have any and all gear you own.
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sungam
Sep 21, 2008, 11:43 AM
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Lazlo wrote: Don't ask me what the application is...but the idea popped into my head "What if I have to haul my partner back up the rappel ropes before we touch down!?" It's late...I can't sleep. I tried to work it out with my gear on the living room floor...but I'm too tired to figure it out straight. I'm figuring on two rappel ropes. Lets say the one rappeler is unconcious and locked off with an autoblock. You also happen to have any and all gear you own. 
But seriously, by autoblock you mean auto locker? I'm confused ho an autoblocker would lock like that, maybe you mean his prussik back up or something.
Anyways, let's take it as his prussik, and that I'm at the anchor waiting to rap. Otherwise I'm completely confused as to what you mean.
Assume the anchor could take it (if not, you'd have to back up and equalize) then I'd make either a pully system using a prussik around the rap ropes with a biner on it and a sling clipped to it that runs to the anchor, through a biner there, maybe back to through the prussik biner and back through the anchor. put all your weight on the sling and - if there isn't over much friction- your partner should go up a little bit. use another prussik to lock it off, then slide the pully prussik back down the rope and reapeat.
He buys the beers.
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 5:23 PM
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...I JUST woke up...so I'm still blinking and can only think about coffee...but here it goes.
The auto block I mentioned; you might call a french prussic...if I recall correctly. It's a simplified Klemheist knot(if that helps). For the sake of the scenario; a prussick backup will work.
Now, I know it's plenty simple if there is only one rappel rope and the rescuer is waiting at the top to rap second.........but that's not what I'm saying. There are two rappel ropes/two rappellers. They are both free-hanging. I know one guy could just ascend back up then do a 7:1 from top side. But I'm operating on the assumption that he can't. The haul has to be done in mid-air. I think it could be easier anyway. (body-weight hauling on a 3:1 instead of 7:1)
I think I could figure it out if I was actually in the situation. But, eh. I'm at home.
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sungam
Sep 21, 2008, 5:55 PM
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Anchor = 3rd prussik attached on the hurt dude's rope?
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 6:00 PM
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But you also need a progress-capture on victim's harness so that you can re-set the haul system.
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colatownkid
Sep 21, 2008, 6:11 PM
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Lazlo wrote: Don't ask me what the application is...but the idea popped into my head "What if I have to haul my partner back up the rappel ropes before we touch down!?" It's late...I can't sleep. I tried to work it out with my gear on the living room floor...but I'm too tired to figure it out straight. I'm figuring on two rappel ropes. Lets say the one rappeler is unconcious and locked off with an autoblock. You also happen to have any and all gear you own.
Let's make sure I have this straight before I bother thinking about it:
Climber 1 is unconscious, suspended in mid-rappel, secured by his back-up friction hitch (type is totally irrelevant. hell, it could even be a petzl shunt). anyway, Climber 2 is the rescuer, in mid-rappel on a separate rope carrying the rack. Climber 2 is supposed to rescue Climber 1.
Are the climbers on single-line or double-line rappels? Also, what is the proximity of climber 1 to climber 2 and the respective ropes of the climbers?
edited for grammar.
(This post was edited by colatownkid on Sep 21, 2008, 6:16 PM)
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 6:17 PM
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colatownkid wrote: Let make sure I have this straight before I bother thinking about it: Climber 1 is unconscious, suspended in mid-rappel, secured by his back-up friction hitch (type is totally irrelevant. hell, it could even be a petzl shunt). anyway, Climber 2 is the rescuer, in mid-rappel on a separate rope carrying the rack. Climber 2 is supposed to rescue both Climber 1. Are the climbers on single-line or double-line rappels? Also, what is the proximity of climber 1 to climber 2 and the respective ropes of the climbers?
Right!
and...
Single line
Ropes/climbers are 1 foot apart.
(This post was edited by Lazlo on Sep 21, 2008, 6:18 PM)
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sungam
Sep 21, 2008, 6:26 PM
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Lazlo wrote: But you also need a progress-capture on victim's harness so that you can re-set the haul system.
Only this time you're moving upside down.
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 6:34 PM
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Where I'm finding my problem is how/what strand to atatch the progress capture to get it to self-feed. I'm actually thinking on placing it above the haul system on a cordalette so that the rescuer can manage it.
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moose_droppings
Sep 21, 2008, 6:38 PM
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Rap to your buddies side, let your autoblock hold you. Attach buddy to yourself (runner, quickdraw). Reach over and release his autoblock till he's weighted on you. Undo his rap device and autoblock off his line. Release your autoblock and rap down with buddy attached to you.
If your worried about your autoblock not holding while your taking him off his line, you could tie an OH below you to stand on, then untie after you've secured your autoblock with both of you on it.
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 6:43 PM
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Yeah, in most all situations, that's what you'd do...but it started bugging me that I couldn't think the haul system through. I'm just over-complicating it. I'll figure it out at the crag later today, I'm sure.
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 6:48 PM
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Just figured it out...garda hitch at the lowest "pulley" point on victim. No need to 'manage' device.
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colatownkid
Sep 21, 2008, 6:57 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: Rap to your buddies side, let your autoblock hold you. Attach buddy to yourself (runner, quickdraw). Reach over and release his autoblock till he's weighted on you. Undo his rap device and autoblock off his line. Release your autoblock and rap down with buddy attached to you.
Yep, no need to bother messing with a haul. you're already on the way down anyway.
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billl7
Sep 21, 2008, 7:00 PM
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Assuming you want to return to the anchor above, would it help to focus on a body haul with a 2:1 system using the rope that trails from his belay device? For example, if he has an ATC then the integrated biner can act as pulley (ATC becomes passive). Could you set up a haul system where his trail line goes up through a biner/pulley fixed above you and then back down to you. Then use your legs and prusiks/ascenders to pull down on that line.
I know there's a lot of missing details in the above (e.g., backups, how to reset efficiently). Also, at least the upper biner I mention probably needs to be a pulley or the friction from the two biners will likely be a problem.
Bill
Rescue Amateur
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moose_droppings
Sep 21, 2008, 7:01 PM
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Your partner already has a load releasable point in his system. Don't know why you need to lift and capture.
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 7:06 PM
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colatownkid wrote: moose_droppings wrote: Rap to your buddies side, let your autoblock hold you. Attach buddy to yourself (runner, quickdraw). Reach over and release his autoblock till he's weighted on you. Undo his rap device and autoblock off his line. Release your autoblock and rap down with buddy attached to you. Yep, no need to bother messing with a haul. you're already on the way down anyway.
The only real scenario I can think of:
Victim has massive head trauma from falling rock. Medical attention is urgently needed.
Both rappers have only descended like 20' (it's short.)
No cell reception.
If they finish the rappel, there still won't be cell reception AND a long improbable walk-out.
Victim might die if I don't get him up the 20' and into my car.
Hauling next to victim is important due to terrain.
Meh. It's Sunday morning and I'm bored. Can I just go climb?
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 7:08 PM
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billl7 wrote: Assuming you want to return to the anchor above, would it help to focus on a body haul with a 2:1 system using the rope that trails from his belay device? For example, if he has an ATC then the integrated biner can act as pulley (ATC becomes passive). Could you set up a haul system where his trail line goes up through a biner/pulley fixed above you and then back down to you. Then use your legs and prusiks/ascenders to pull down on that line. I know there's a lot of missing details in the above (e.g., backups, how to reset efficiently). Also, at least the upper biner I mention probably needs to be a pulley or the friction from the two biners will likely be a problem. Bill Rescue Amateur
I like this theory a lot...And it works well if the victim is locked on a prussic and not an autoblock.
Passive ATC would become a prussic-minder. 
(This post was edited by Lazlo on Sep 21, 2008, 7:13 PM)
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 7:09 PM
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And the body counter weight would be sufficient considering the 2:1 advantage.
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Lazlo
Sep 21, 2008, 7:10 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: Your partner already has a load releasable point in his system. Don't know why you need to lift and capture.
If he's using grigri, I agree. I was assuming a tube-style device.
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sungam
Sep 21, 2008, 7:18 PM
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I assumed you were talking about a plce like the Verdon Gorge where you rape 3 pitches in, hanging belay, then climb out. You would then have to haul back out.
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moose_droppings
Sep 21, 2008, 7:20 PM
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OK, if your needing to end up on top and not your 1st scenario "before we touch down", then first thing is to secure your buddy to his line(make sure he can't slide down). Jug your self to the top, make your call if you can now. Set up a 2-1 (or whatever your haul system you want) on his line at the top and start hauling him up.
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moose_droppings
Sep 21, 2008, 7:30 PM
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Actually, it depends on the situation. If he's unconscious, you'd be better off to get him down (since its quicker) and get him secured on a ledge some where to prevent HHS. Then go for help. Also hauling him up while he's out like a pig might cause more damage depending on the route, think roofs. Its much better if he can be attended to while he's being hauled.
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altelis
Sep 21, 2008, 7:30 PM
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Are they simul-rapping or are they rapping two seperate fixed single lines?
makes a HUGE difference.
and i don't see how any of these scenarios work if they are simul rapping AND the knot is on the "wrong" side of the anchor!
or have i missed something?
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