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addicted2alpine
Oct 20, 2008, 10:09 PM
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So what do you guys use to back yourself up when jugging lines that are fixed at the top and bottom? And were assuming your using running man style here, not the froggy way
I know some of you are going to say use a grigri but what if the lines are so tight that you would be pulling slack through the grigri every 5-10ft? - That would get annoying and be very slow
you cant tie into the end of the rope and tieing in short would only allow you to go maybe 10ft before you had to retie, so what do you do?
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glahhg
Oct 20, 2008, 10:54 PM
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If it's straight vertical and I'm not passing gear or doing anything weird, nothing. Probably put biners through the ascenders.
One thing you could do is put a prussik above your top ascender. The ascender pushes it up.
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socalclimber
Oct 20, 2008, 10:57 PM
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addicted2alpine wrote: So what do you guys use to back yourself up when jugging lines that are fixed at the top and bottom? And were assuming your using running man style here, not the froggy way I know some of you are going to say use a grigri but what if the lines are so tight that you would be pulling slack through the grigri every 5-10ft? - That would get annoying and be very slow you cant tie into the end of the rope and tieing in short would only allow you to go maybe 10ft before you had to retie, so what do you do?
Grigri, if the lines are so tight you can't use the grigri, then someone fucked up. Fixed lines does not mean CABLES. The prussik above works ok, but it you clear an edge or clean a piece of gear, or pass a knot, you've got some issues to deal with.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Oct 20, 2008, 11:04 PM)
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xtrmecat
Oct 20, 2008, 11:03 PM
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I usually put a biner through the top of each ascender to prevent it from being able to be torqued off the rope. I also put a locker on my belay loop so I cannot conceivably fall beyond the station below me. First pitch this is not possible. I also am very diligent about not getting in a hurry, getting sloppy with my strokes, and never bounce the line especially when I know it runs over an edge(either sharp or rounded) Some have wrapped a prussik above the top ascender and let the top jug push it up, however I have never done this.
Kind of unnerving the first time or ten above several hundred feet but after about 20 or 30 feet off the deck the results are going to be the same anyhow.
I have only jugged my own lines and there is never enough slack to allow a tie in. The second gets to tie in though, as he can bring up the bottom of the cord with him. The bad part is he also has all the ropes weight (we've fixed three 10.5 MM cords before) when he tops the lines as the first guy up never waits for the second at a station(prevent a cluster) and never on a section of line with your partner.
Bob
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scottb
Oct 20, 2008, 11:15 PM
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Seems like a mini-trax or a handle-less ascender attached to your belay loop would work in that situation. Personally though, I wouldn't bother. I just put lockers trough the top of the ascenders and tie a backup knot on a locker through my belay loop if I have to pass a knot or an anchor.
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ozoneclimber
Oct 21, 2008, 1:39 AM
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If you go to OnRope1.com you will see a shitload of ascending systems that you could use...
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ptlong
Oct 21, 2008, 1:45 AM
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I've seen a grigri used in this circumstance and it worked okay. But a small ascender (like the mini traxion) would surely feed just fine.
I've never backed up in that situation since the odds of dying are due more to failure of anchor or rope damage than from popping off both jugs. But I've never had to ascend a line fixed top and bottom that also traversed greatly. In that case I'd rig a grigri or at the very least a prusik.
(This post was edited by ptlong on Oct 21, 2008, 1:47 AM)
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marlinmje
Oct 22, 2008, 4:34 PM
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I use a grigri and the guys that I know that have done big walls use the grigri also. Just place overhand or fig 8 knots on the brake side of the rope as a back up.
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altelis
Oct 22, 2008, 11:16 PM
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marlinmje wrote: I use a grigri and the guys that I know that have done big walls use the grigri also. Just place overhand or fig 8 knots on the brake side of the rope as a back up.
not to be an ass- but WTF?!!?!?!
backing up the back up? isn't that a bit, um, overkill? if you are tying knots in the rope to back up the grigri (which in turn is backing up the jugs), why not skip the pain of pulling rope through the grigri and just freaking tie the knots?
or DON"T tie the knots but use the grigri......i know redundancy and all that but at a certain point you'll never leave the ground!
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kennoyce
Oct 22, 2008, 11:49 PM
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No one has yet mentioned a tibloc. I will just clip a tibloc onto my belay loop and call it good. I know that if I were to need the tibloc, it might shred some of the sheath of the rope, but I won't die, and I have never had a single ascender come off the rope ever, so I think the chances of both popping is next to nothing.
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colatownkid
Oct 23, 2008, 12:34 AM
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altelis wrote: marlinmje wrote: I use a grigri and the guys that I know that have done big walls use the grigri also. Just place overhand or fig 8 knots on the brake side of the rope as a back up. not to be an ass- but WTF?!!?!?! backing up the back up? isn't that a bit, um, overkill? if you are tying knots in the rope to back up the grigri (which in turn is backing up the jugs), why not skip the pain of pulling rope through the grigri and just freaking tie the knots? or DON"T tie the knots but use the grigri......i know redundancy and all that but at a certain point you'll never leave the ground!
not sure (didn't read that carefully, though in hindsight i probably should have), but i'm guessing marlin means that they're using the grigri as an ascender, in which case it might be worthy of backup.
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ptlong
Oct 23, 2008, 1:29 AM
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colatownkid wrote: altelis wrote: marlinmje wrote: I use a grigri and the guys that I know that have done big walls use the grigri also. Just place overhand or fig 8 knots on the brake side of the rope as a back up. not to be an ass- but WTF?!!?!?! backing up the back up? isn't that a bit, um, overkill? if you are tying knots in the rope to back up the grigri (which in turn is backing up the jugs), why not skip the pain of pulling rope through the grigri and just freaking tie the knots? or DON"T tie the knots but use the grigri......i know redundancy and all that but at a certain point you'll never leave the ground! not sure (didn't read that carefully, though in hindsight i probably should have), but i'm guessing marlin means that they're using the grigri as an ascender, in which case it might be worthy of backup.
No worries, marlin didn't read that carefully either.
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colatownkid
Oct 23, 2008, 1:34 AM
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ptlong wrote: colatownkid wrote: altelis wrote: marlinmje wrote: I use a grigri and the guys that I know that have done big walls use the grigri also. Just place overhand or fig 8 knots on the brake side of the rope as a back up. not to be an ass- but WTF?!!?!?! backing up the back up? isn't that a bit, um, overkill? if you are tying knots in the rope to back up the grigri (which in turn is backing up the jugs), why not skip the pain of pulling rope through the grigri and just freaking tie the knots? or DON"T tie the knots but use the grigri......i know redundancy and all that but at a certain point you'll never leave the ground! not sure (didn't read that carefully, though in hindsight i probably should have), but i'm guessing marlin means that they're using the grigri as an ascender, in which case it might be worthy of backup. No worries, marlin didn't read that carefully either.
indeed he did not; otherwise he would have known the thread was about back-ups. knowing this, i didn't worry about not reading.
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basilisk
Oct 23, 2008, 3:39 AM
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I'm no big-wall master, and I've never even tried this, but what about a cinch? It's pretty simple to slip onto even a taught line, and it'll more or less slide on its own
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skiclimb
Oct 23, 2008, 3:47 AM
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To be quite honest
I tend to rely on my skill and awareness to back me up while ascending fixed lines.
I don't think I have ever done anything else as a backup. knots tie-ins or whatever...
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majid_sabet
Oct 23, 2008, 4:18 AM
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skiclimb wrote: To be quite honest I tend to rely on my skill and awareness to back me up while ascending fixed lines. I don't think I have ever done anything else as a backup. knots tie-ins or whatever...
http://www.expeditioncave.com/srt/petzl/failure/
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skiclimb
Oct 23, 2008, 4:48 AM
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Majid I am very aware of how petzl ascenders can slip or fail.. there are at least 2 I can think of that most people probably havn't run into....(beware the neutrino) I have spent it seems years ascending ropes with Petzls...
They are in a way a paintbruh in the hands of a master when I use them...
Nothing trumps skill experience and judgement in climbing when it comes to safety...
What is safe for me may not be safe for others...
and there are those who can do more than I..many others... and do so safely...
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Oct 23, 2008, 4:49 AM)
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jmvc
Oct 23, 2008, 3:55 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: skiclimb wrote: To be quite honest I tend to rely on my skill and awareness to back me up while ascending fixed lines. I don't think I have ever done anything else as a backup. knots tie-ins or whatever...
Wouldn't that be called "user error"?
I mean it's like complaining that a gri-gri didn't catch when the cam was blocked..
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dingus
Oct 23, 2008, 4:00 PM
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addicted2alpine wrote: So what do you guys use to back yourself up when jugging lines that are fixed at the top and bottom? And were assuming your using running man style here, not the froggy way I know some of you are going to say use a grigri but what if the lines are so tight that you would be pulling slack through the grigri every 5-10ft? - That would get annoying and be very slow you cant tie into the end of the rope and tieing in short would only allow you to go maybe 10ft before you had to retie, so what do you do?
I use TWO ascenders. Each one serves as the backup to its mate. A nice simple solution.
DMT
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