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fiend
Oct 22, 2001, 5:55 AM
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Are we putting guidebook authors out of business? Should we be competing with them? Should you have to pay for climbing info?
Discuss amongst yourselves.
[ Edited title ]
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2001-11-14 19:37 ]
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rrrADAM
Oct 22, 2001, 6:10 AM
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First of all, I'll never go to a destination without a guide book, ever. I cannot download information at my campsite.
What I invision is people being able to plan a trip, even put together a tick list for a destination. Contact people who have climbed it to ask specific questions, as two climbers recently PM'd me regarding ascents of Devil's Tower and Castleton Tower I made to ask about pro.
Whouldn't that suck if you planned a 2 week trip to American Fork, cause you heard how great it was, only to be crushed when you set up camp, started reading you new guide book, and realized that since you only climb 5.9, you came to the wrong place.
I think that the Routes Section on RC.com will help with the sale of guide books. For example, how many people living in New York go out and buy books for Bishop Area Climbing, unless they are going there. I believe that people will pruse the information, decide that they really want to go there after seeing specific climbs and desciptions, and buy a book at Wilson's when they get there. We cannot replace the guide book, I believe, but we can put the information here to make a trip. The information in guide books is public domain, it was known prior to it's publishing, the author just compiled and organized it. Just like we're trying to do.
I certainly think that someone can print out the 'The Bastille Crack' in Eldorado Canyon, Co. and go climb it without buying a book. But if they only planned on climbing one route in the park, I doubt they'd buy a book anyway. They'd get the beta from climbers in the park. If someone is planning on climbing many Routes, they'd be a fool to print out a tick list, and go on a trip. Plans change, I've never climbed everything I planned on climbing when I've gone somewhere, I've always gotton sidetracked.
Plus, there is relatively little information in the Routes section thus far. We all must add to it to get it to be worthwhile.
rrrADAM
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2001-10-21 23:20 ]
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kagunkie
Oct 22, 2001, 6:11 AM
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If someone wants to buy a guide book to carry with them they can do it, nobody is stopping them. Our climbing info is here for the taking for free because people give it freely from their own experience or beta they have learned on their own. If someone is copying directly from another persons work without their permission then it is not right. Route names dont change neither do the rocks on wich the routes are located so a name or route description may be basically the same but do the work yourself and describe the route in your own words and nobody can say you "stole" it. All the authors that list the same routes in their guide as the last author did in his are not stealing from the previous author as long as they do the work of giving their own description. If RC.com started charging for the guide then I dont think too many people would give route descriptions quite so freely.
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hardcoredana
Oct 22, 2001, 6:14 AM
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This is a cool topic, fiend, and one that I have been wondering about since I have started adding routes to the database.
I think that if our route database were as thorough as a guidebook, then yes, we would be stealing publishers' business. However, we don't provide maps, and sometimes the info that we do provide is not even enough to direct a climber to the correct climb. If climbers depended on our database as their sole source of info, they would probably get lost.
Second of all, we also have a field called "Books and References," where we provide authors and publishers with free advertising.
Right now, with the way the database is, we are probably helping out the publishers. When the route database becomes more complete, the issue will be more complicated.
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rrrADAM
Oct 22, 2001, 6:26 AM
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Great point hardore, about the field 'Books And References'. I've bought books with that information while planning a trip. The publishers should be grateful, RC.com contributed to another book sold.
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bart
Oct 22, 2001, 1:14 PM
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I think guide books are too expensive to buy one for each crag you want to go to. Most of them are even old and not up-to-date anymore. If you go to the same rock most of the times, it's interesting to buy a guidebook, but I believe that people should be able to find the beta on the internet. That's why I appreciate the 'topo pictures' in the gallery so much (great job, greatgarbanzo! .
I am also making a directory in favorites for all the topo pages I find on the web.
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russman
Oct 22, 2001, 2:16 PM
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Bart is very correct. Garbonzo has produced great topo pics with the routes clearly marked on the pics, as well as people climbing them. If you have not checked out his area goto Venezuela and check it out. It woudl be enven better if I could read Spanish.
As for guide Books, They do go out of print and are hard to get. I jsut purchased a book for the crags in my backyard, It has been out of print for 2 years and this was teh first time I have seen one for sale...and it was on ebay of all places. Hopefully our Routes section will help the publishers keep some of these books out there and maybe even updated.
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greatgarbanzo
Oct 22, 2001, 3:34 PM
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I think that if you really make an effort and upload all the topos as i am trying to do, you can (very easly) make something printable and eliminate the use of guide books... I do this for two reasons:
1. In Venezuela there are 0 (read ZERO) guides books published. We need something like RC.COM.
2. I believe that this information should be FREE FOR ALL.
THIS IS FOR RUSSMAN:
PLEASE IF YOU FEEL CURIOSITY ON ANYTHING I HAVE WRITTEN JUST ASK SO THAT I ALSO PUBLISH THE TRANSLATION OF IT.
I dont upload the information of the crags on english because almost no climber here in venezuela understand english... and... i am doing this for venezuelan climbers, but if you are interested in coming I will very FAST translate everything for all of you guys... also check:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=3744&forum=27&0
Remember this site is by climbers for climbers....
hey... dont forget to help me with my article at:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=3703&forum=36
[ Este Mensaje fue editado por: greatgarbanzo el 2001-10-22 08:45 ]
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andy_lemon
Oct 22, 2001, 6:07 PM
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Say you put up info from someones guide book. What do you say to him if he ever confronts you?
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maltek
Oct 22, 2001, 6:14 PM
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Here is the can and can't use from Guidebooks:
Can use:
1) the route difficulty degree (5.8, 5.10d, etc..)
2) The name of the route
3) Length, number of bolts, sports, TR
Can't use:
1) Descriptions
2) Photo or drawing
3) Appreciation of the route
4) Quality of protection
And be carefull and try to use your own words!
Maltek
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andy_lemon
Oct 22, 2001, 6:22 PM
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If you can't use the "description" to describe were the route is, then there is no since putting it up on the site.
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rrrADAM
Oct 23, 2001, 12:09 AM
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I think he means the 'Author's Description' of the climb, these are his own words. For us we should describe them as: Roof, Face, Crack, Crimpy, Friction, etc...
rrrADAM
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rrrADAM
Oct 23, 2001, 12:50 AM
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A further note...
At this point, anyone can go and pruse routes in France and Thailand, instead of just reading about them in magazines, or having to buy a book to just look at them.
But quantity is only a fraction of what it could be if the users of this site were to add just the climbs they have done into the DBase.
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mountainmike
Oct 23, 2001, 4:37 AM
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I don't think that rc.com will ever really take the place of guide books. It just doesn't really replace them. Rc.com brings the climbing community closer together. It helps us all share the beta that we would be sharing if all 10,000 sum could talk face to face.
Michael
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woodse
Oct 23, 2001, 9:31 PM
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I think that the guidebook authors will survive.
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saltspringer
Oct 25, 2001, 8:10 AM
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As someone who is in the middle of developing a new climbing area, I find resources like this website invaluable. If our local community waited to publish a guide book in order to let others know about the climbing here, we'd be waiting a mighty long time for people to show up. We're not precious about protecting FA's of routes so much but we are very concerned about development in eco-sensitive areas and, hopefully, any links or info that people find on this site will lead them to me & other local climbers before they bolt a peregrine falcon nest site or cut down a rare tree or plant. A guidebook would be alot of fun to produce for this area but for now the web is great
_________________
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[ This Message was edited by: saltspringer on 2001-10-25 01:15 ]
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trevor
Anonymous Poster
Oct 26, 2001, 11:31 PM
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This is in response to a previous link to Dr. Topo:
I think Dr. Topo is a great site. I personally have used it myself. The owner and I had even considered creating a partnership where we exchange advertising.
The advantage that Dr. Topo provides is providing a very custom, well-done site for a small number of popular destinations. What they did takes time and requires a lot of effort to do each one.
But this advantage is also what gives them their weakness. Because they have to do everything custom, there is no way they can ever come close to documenting even a fraction of the total climbing areas in the world.
By using a powerful database, RC.com gives the average climber the ability to document their favorite climbing area without knowing a single line of HTML! Then when they are done, other people can search, list, modify, and tons of other stuff that Dr.Topo could never do.
We are talking apples and oranges when you start to compare RC.com and Dr. Topo. Both good, just different.
[ This Message was edited by: trevor on 2001-10-26 16:33 ]
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trevor
Anonymous Poster
Oct 26, 2001, 11:58 PM
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Here is a glimpse of the future (the way I see it)...
You are walking down the pathway of a canyon that you've never seen before in your life. After all, this is your first time you've visited Africa. You pull out your Portable Computer from your front pocket (it's very small) and say, "Are there any sport climbs within 500 meters of me between 5.9 and 5.11?"
Just two weeks earlier, tumbo (a new RC.com member from Kenya) finished his exhaustive documentary on the Kumbo Danywee Section (Swaheli for Lion Pride).
The GPS device in your computer discovers your exact location, beams your question directly to RC.com, the server then queries the information that tumbo from Kenya just entered and responds (in French of course because you are from Paris)...
"Yes, there are 8 sport routes that match your criteria. Six of the routes are located on the Section called 'Lion Pride.' Walk 150 meters to your left and you will see a large cliff. On the far left side is a 5.10b sport route. It is the most popular route in this area. Would you like to climb that route?"
Obviously, we have a long way to go before we see all of this stuff, but we may not be so far away from a little part of it. If someone would write a Palm application, we could allow you to download route information into your Palm. We can track GPS coordinates already on the site. There are GPS devices from Garmin that can tell you which way to drive if you give it the coordinates. Web enabled phones and Palm VIIs can download websites remotely. You can plug in a GPS device to Visors (similar to the Palm). So we may not have voice recognition yet, but we are much closer than you think to making guide books 90% obsolete. None of this will magically happen, so we may have to charge a small fee to use SOME of the services. Unless of course you know some programmers that will work for free.
Will we replace guidebooks? Have people stopped buying the Bible just because you can now download it off the Internet? Nothing will ever replace good old fashion paper.
[ This Message was edited by: trevor on 2001-10-26 17:02 ]
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rrrADAM
Oct 27, 2001, 12:43 AM
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I also have not seen any routes on Dr Topo either, only bouldering.
rrrADAM
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spider_woman
Oct 29, 2001, 9:36 PM
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I think that the contributions RC.com offers to the climbing community are extremely beneficial, and that while the beta on this site is free, there are still going to be people who go out and buy the guidebooks. This site helps people who don't have a lot of cash get the beta they need. In my opinion, it's pretty evened out. When you're actually out there climbing, you aren't going to be hooking up the PC, you will end up referring to the guidebooks. By the same token, if you want to gather information before you go, you can scope things out here. RC.com rocks!! Climb on!
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laplaya
Oct 31, 2001, 2:38 AM
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If I found a guide book on any of the places I climb, or were planning on climbing, I would buy it. While alot of the posted routes here are well posted, there are also alot of routes here where all that is posted is the name and sometimes the location. If I did buuy a guide book and it was that piss poor, I would burn it. to those of you who are not listing any info on the routes you put up here, why bother to post?
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paintinhaler
Oct 31, 2001, 5:58 AM
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I guy that made tha book for my local area wasted his time and everyone elses. I think me putting what I know on rockclimbing.com will help people find climbs easyer. Becuase I know what it's like walking around back and forth looking the the picture asking your self was the guy that drew this on crack or what?
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