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Being lowered rope on sling
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Partner robdotcalm


Nov 13, 2008, 7:15 PM
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     Being lowered rope on sling
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The following is from Mt Project about an accident at Foothill Crag (Ventura CA). Obviously some inexperienced climbers who would have benefitted from some good advice. Best wishes for a decent recovery.


«just heard from someone who spoke with the belayer that was involved in this accident. Here are the apparent details:

Two local teens were planning to top-rope the 90-foot tall route "Roothless Poodles" (5.10a).

The individual who would later become the victim built an anchor that consisted of one continuous loop of 1-inch webbing that was clipped with carabiners to 3 different bolts. The rope was then passed through the end of the loop of webbing. No carabiners were used to attach the rope to the loop. The second climber complained that the anchor "did not seem right." The first climber reported that he had "done it this way before."

The individual who had built the anchor then successfully climbed the route with the rope running directly through the webbing. He sat back and began to be lowered off of the anchor. Approximately half way down the route, the rope sawed completely through the webbing anchor.

The climber dropped approximately 45 feet, remaining upright and clawing at the rock as he descended. The climber suffered life-threatening injuries including 3 broken ribs, a punctured lung, and a broken pelvis.

The injured climber was air lifted to a hospital. He is expected to make a full recovery.»


Lazlo


Nov 13, 2008, 7:22 PM
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Thank you for posting this. I'm shocked...but at the same time...I know I shouldn't be. We've seen so many things at our local crags over the years. I, myself, often have the mindset of "Oh crap, a noob will die today. Lets leave this area before it happens."

Lets start teaching more of these new climbers! If they don't want some well meant instruction, oh well, but lets try!

I'm so sad to read so many accident reports on incidents that are so easily avoided!

(I know I'm kind of hi-jacking...sorry)


coolcat83


Nov 13, 2008, 7:29 PM
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robdotcalm wrote:
The following is from Mt Project about an accident at Foothill Crag (Ventura CA). Obviously some inexperienced climbers who would have benefitted from some good advice. Best wishes for a decent recovery.


«just heard from someone who spoke with the belayer that was involved in this accident. Here are the apparent details:

Two local teens were planning to top-rope the 90-foot tall route "Roothless Poodles" (5.10a).

The individual who would later become the victim built an anchor that consisted of one continuous loop of 1-inch webbing that was clipped with carabiners to 3 different bolts. The rope was then passed through the end of the loop of webbing. No carabiners were used to attach the rope to the loop. The second climber complained that the anchor "did not seem right." The first climber reported that he had "done it this way before."

The individual who had built the anchor then successfully climbed the route with the rope running directly through the webbing. He sat back and began to be lowered off of the anchor. Approximately half way down the route, the rope sawed completely through the webbing anchor.

The climber dropped approximately 45 feet, remaining upright and clawing at the rock as he descended. The climber suffered life-threatening injuries including 3 broken ribs, a punctured lung, and a broken pelvis.

The injured climber was air lifted to a hospital. He is expected to make a full recovery.»

sounds like the probably had no instruction, or no gear money and thought they could get away with it. i almost had a similar incident with some high school kids setting up their anchor from a single tree that was closer to a twig, i re rigged their anchor with some of my gear since i was climbing the route next to them.


did you read an interview or anything about why they set it up like that?


(This post was edited by coolcat83 on Nov 13, 2008, 7:29 PM)


swaghole


Nov 14, 2008, 4:22 AM
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robdotcalm wrote:
The individual who had built the anchor then successfully climbed the route with the rope running directly through the webbing. He sat back and began to be lowered off of the anchor. Approximately half way down the route, the rope sawed completely through the webbing anchor.

My thought on this is that the inexperienced climber had probably seen someone rapel with a the rope directly on webbing. He may have thought that if rapelling is ok, then lowering off should be fine.


Partner epoch
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Nov 14, 2008, 4:25 AM
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swaghole wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
The individual who had built the anchor then successfully climbed the route with the rope running directly through the webbing. He sat back and began to be lowered off of the anchor. Approximately half way down the route, the rope sawed completely through the webbing anchor.

My thought on this is that the inexperienced climber had probably seen someone rapel with a the rope directly on webbing. He may have thought that if rapelling is ok, then lowering off should be fine.
I am willing to bet that he did it because he just didn't know any better.


Skabbi


Nov 14, 2008, 5:22 AM
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Hi

I read this a couple of years ago, seems appropriate. Maybe someone can learn something from it.

http://www.theuiaa.org/...ff_and_abseiling.pdf

jep

Ska


Partner j_ung


Nov 14, 2008, 5:26 AM
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Edit: Sorry, folks, we're too far out of hand. Socalclimber, I would have loved to leave this alone and wait for you to log on and self edit, but remarks like yours lead straight into escalating noise. In this forum, those days are over folks. I get how frustrating it is to hear about accidents like this, but please keep the tone mature or don't post at all.

Posts in this thread have been moved to the Recycle Bin. If yours was a reasonable response to the initial hoopla, I apologize, but it probably went, too.

Jay


(This post was edited by j_ung on Nov 14, 2008, 7:31 AM)


itstoearly


Nov 14, 2008, 5:49 AM
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As tragic as this is, it would have been even worse if the friend who spoke up was the one who was injured.


hansundfritz


Nov 14, 2008, 6:01 AM
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Skabbi wrote:
Hi

I read this a couple of years ago, seems appropriate. Maybe someone can learn something from it.

http://www.theuiaa.org/...ff_and_abseiling.pdf

jep

Ska


Interesting read. The melt-through times were surprisingly short in those tests.


markc


Nov 14, 2008, 6:50 AM
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itstoearly wrote:
As tragic as this is, it would have been even worse if the friend who spoke up was the one who was injured.

I have to agree. It's too bad the kid didn't stick with his gut and refuse to belay. I hope his friend mends well.

It sounds like the victim could have made a sub-par (but but not necessarily catastrophic) anchor with what he had. 1" webbing rigged for a sliding-x, biners on two bolts, and the rope through the last biner.


Partner j_ung


Nov 14, 2008, 7:48 AM
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hansundfritz wrote:
Skabbi wrote:
Hi

I read this a couple of years ago, seems appropriate. Maybe someone can learn something from it.

http://www.theuiaa.org/...ff_and_abseiling.pdf

jep

Ska


Interesting read. The melt-through times were surprisingly short in those tests.

I was out at the North Side of Looking Glass one rainy day when Fox Mountain Guides was out there doing a trad clinic. Adam had brought along a selection of slings and cords of varying thickness and he set up an ad hoc test to compare the relative abrasion resistance of the lot of them. It was pretty cool to see, and it's the reason why I don't have any of those ultra-thin Dyneema slings on my rack. (I'm not saying they're inherently dangerous, just that I'm not completely comfy with them in every situation.)

Anyway, this led to playing around with relative rub-through times of soft good on soft goods, as in this accident report. I pretty much already knew what was going to happen, but there was a whole bunch of "oh, right..." moments all strung together. I highly recommend you put your retired gear through similar home testing before throwing it away. Very enlightening.


socalclimber


Nov 15, 2008, 5:12 AM
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j_ung wrote:
Edit: Sorry, folks, we're too far out of hand. Socalclimber, I would have loved to leave this alone and wait

for you to log on and self edit, but remarks like yours lead straight into escalating noise. In this forum, those days are

over folks. I get how frustrating it is to hear about accidents like this, but please keep the tone mature or don't post at

all.

Posts in this thread have been moved to the Recycle Bin. If yours was a reasonable response to the initial hoopla, I

apologize, but it probably went, too.

Jay


Let's not get confused here:

In reply to:
I get how frustrating it is to hear about accidents like this,

As far as my stance or opinions on accidents go, I am not frustrated by them. I am disgusted. Don't put words in my mouth. Under no circumstances will I edit, or would I edit my comments. I made my point clear, and I stand by it.

As a moderator of this site, you felt the need to make changes to a thread that I made comments on. So be it. I don't for a second think that you, or anyone managing this site, have any obligation to support my right to free speech. This is simple, it's not my site. It's utlimately private property as far as I am concerned. The owners and the people they have entrusted to manage it have the final say.

What is going on is disturbing. It is also predictable. This isn't fucking bowling or knitting. This is a very dangerous way to spend your time. The more that people hear this, including the "loved ones", the better. Can't handle it, oh well. You probably should not be climbing.

I will not make excuses for my harsh statements. I will stand by them. Ban me if it makes you happy.

The stats of the accidents speak for themselves, and will continue to do so.


billl7


Nov 15, 2008, 7:12 AM
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socalclimber wrote:
The stats of the accidents speak for themselves, and will continue to do so.
The shallow response would be: then let the stats do the talking. To a slightly greater depth, I'd rather not see you banned, socal.

Besides, there are plenty of places for the free reign of feelings outside of I&A - assuming the new moderator rules aren't quite so heavy elsewhere.

Bill L


saxfiend


Nov 15, 2008, 8:59 AM
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socalclimber wrote:
What is going on is disturbing. It is also predictable. This isn't fucking bowling or knitting. This is a very dangerous way to spend your time. The more that people hear this, including the "loved ones", the better.
Your premise here is a good one: climbing has risks, the consequences of mistakes can be high, and people need to know that. What you don't seem to understand is that when you post statements that essentially say "it's too bad the climber who fucked up didn't die," you've derailed discussion of that good premise. This thread is no longer about a climbing accident and what climbers can learn from it -- it's about you, and whether or not you are a heartless asshole.

It's too bad you still don't get it.

JL


Tree_wrangler


Nov 15, 2008, 9:02 AM
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Deja vu.

This could have been me, age 16, once upon a time. I learned a little about alpine belaying, had toproped once, and thought "I get it. This shit is easy. And cool!"

I was frequently the ringleader, or one of them, of my social group's forays into the risque, be it risk or just misbehavior. "Dude, let's empty the contents of all of these model rocket engines into one container and......" When things went wrong "Dude, your hair is on fire!", the only sort of lessons learned were "Oh. Should have made a fuse. Not used a lighter." Smarter friends simply gave up experimenting out of sense or fear.

SO, I convinced my buddies that I knew what I was doing, and down to the crag we went. I had never used webbing as part of an anchor, and I had only toproped with the belayer sitting at the top of the rock, and had never seen the usual pulley-type toprope. SO, I found top anchors of two routes clipped all of them, and ran the rope through all 3-4 widely spaced bolts. It ran terribly of course.

A neighboring pair noticed the mess, and gave me a solid talking-to (very nicely), and rebuilt my anchor (they lent some gear). The next week I was enrolled in a basic climbing course.

I recall that even though the folks were delivering criticism, they were really sweet about it. At age 16, my ego still bruised, and embarrassment was at a maximum.


socalclimber


Nov 15, 2008, 9:25 AM
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billl7 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
The stats of the accidents speak for themselves, and will continue to do so.
The shallow response would be: then let the stats do the talking. To a slightly greater depth, I'd rather not see you banned, socal.

Besides, there are plenty of places for the free reign of feelings outside of I&A - assuming the new moderator rules aren't quite so heavy elsewhere.

Bill L

Thanks for your thoughts Bill.

I really don't want to be banned either. I know that I can be a VERY HARSH NASTY BASTARD. I'VE CLEARLY DEFINED THIS AS OF LATE. I MAKE NO APOLOGIES FOR IT, NOR WILL I STOP. I'M DOING THIS FOR A REASON.

This site has become a beacon to the "NEW"climbing community. As far as I am concerned, the "people in charge" need to start understanding a little more about the community in wich they portend to serve instead of coming up with new retarded policies to protect the feelings of others.

If you want to protect peoples feelings, then don't encourage them to pursue an activity that is inherently dangerous.

Frankly, I'm the only one on this site that seems to have the balls to step up and flat out call a spade a spade. This shit with accidents is out of control. It will continue to be this way. Take a look at this idiot mazzystr that I shredded this week. This guy appears to be of the type of attitude that are causing accidents.


"Ooooooooooooooooooo..... look at me! I'm a groovy climber. I'm freeeee!" Yup, you certainly are, I'll be plenty happy the sooner we are free from you and endagering the lives of others.

It's just fucking stupidity. I won't shed a tear if he off's himself with his attitude. What would be sad is if he hurts or kills someone else. Based on his comments and attitude, this is likely.

Climbing has become popular like jogging, going to the gym, and break dancing, and god, and I can't believe it, but I'll say it again, extreme frisbee.

I need a shower.

STAY HOME. It's probably safer there.

If the powers that be really give a shit about the community, then they will let this flame fest continue. It's time people start to hear the real ugly truth about climbing. It's not cool, it's not groovy, it's not bitchen.

IT'S FUCKING DANGEROUS.

I've stood by the partners of bad climbing accidents, attempting to consul them. I've gotten the emails from their loved ones after SAR incidents asking for explanations as to what happened. It's not a fun place to be.

Frankly, I just reponded to someone who had an epic on a route where he made a number of big mistakes, but, truth be told, he made some very good judgement calls and managed to get himself out of the situation he was in. One, by the way, that could have ended badly.

Have I made some really fucking stupid mistakes in 15 years of climbing? YOU BET I HAVE. Do I continue to repeat them? NO. Do I think before I strike? YES? This is why I am still alive and able to continue climbing.

So, to further dispell any other nonsense, here's a link to some of my trip reports that clearly dictate how stupid I have been in some cases, and successful in others (meaning I didn't die as I'm sure some of you wish I had):

http://www.socalclimb.com/tr_page.html

I have no problems owning up to my stupid practices, but what is going on in the climbing community today is shamefull at best.

<quote>Besides, there are plenty of places for the free reign of feelings outside of I&A -</quote>

I disagree with you on this one. This exactly the place for these feelings to be presented.

In closing, I will further back my statements up with a final offer. If any family member, or member of this site who has had to deal with the loss or horrible accident of a loved one and feels the need to confront me directly, this is my phone number:

(760)401-5462

I'm standing by what I say and believe. That's far more than most of the people of this site are truely willing to do.

Robert Fonda
Joshua Tree California


socalclimber


Nov 15, 2008, 9:35 AM
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saxfiend wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
What is going on is disturbing. It is also predictable. This isn't fucking bowling or knitting. This is a very dangerous way to spend your time. The more that people hear this, including the "loved ones", the better.
Your premise here is a good one: climbing has risks, the consequences of mistakes can be high, and people need to know that. What you don't seem to understand is that when you post statements that essentially say "it's too bad the climber who fucked up didn't die," you've derailed discussion of that good premise. This thread is no longer about a climbing accident and what climbers can learn from it -- it's about you, and whether or not you are a heartless asshole.

It's too bad you still don't get it.

JL

I very clearly understand what's going on here. Apparently you do not.


billl7


Nov 15, 2008, 10:35 AM
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socalclimber wrote:
If you want to protect peoples feelings, then don't encourage them to pursue an activity that is inherently dangerous.

I have mainly been thinking about the non-climbers linked by relationships to a climbing fatality. Of course they read threads related to the accident. And, I am biased that way given that many close to me would rather I did not climb.

As for my basically non-climbing wife, do I hide from her that I could be seriously disabled or killed in this choice of mine? No. ... that such an accident could be the fault of a partner of mine (which I accept but strive to avoid)? No. But I digress.

It seems we are looking from different angles: through the eyes of those in the 'audience' who will never climb outside versus the ones of those who are just getting interested in climbing. Looking at that difference, I would tend to say the interest of the latter takes priority in a conflict.

Perhaps this can be somehow factored into the moderator policy. Or maybe it has. Is a blunt-and-to-the-point style that risks insults really in conflict with the site's goal of 'mature' posts in I&A?

Bill L


Johnny_Fang


Nov 15, 2008, 10:54 AM
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billl7 wrote:
<snip>

Perhaps this can be somehow factored into the moderator policy. Or maybe it has. Is a blunt-and-to-the-point style that risks insults really in conflict with the site's goal of 'mature' posts in I&A?

Bill L

Good points. I think, though, that there is a difference between a blunt-and-to-the-point-style versus writing that you think it is sad that someone DIDN'T die, no matter how ignorant their actions. Apparently socalclimber posted some trip reports of himself doing stupid stuff (I'm not reading that). Based on his own bizarre and convoluted logic, he should wish death upon himself during these stupid actions in order to let n00bs know how dangerous climbing can be, and thereby turn them off to climbing... and, apparently, not have them on his crags. Which he can't climb anymore anyway, because he's dead. Brilliant.


(This post was edited by Johnny_Fang on Nov 15, 2008, 11:11 AM)


saxfiend


Nov 15, 2008, 11:03 AM
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socalclimber wrote:
I very clearly understand what's going on here. Apparently you do not.
Apparently not. But I do now. I had the impression you were trying to win hearts and minds, or at least raise awareness of the dangers. Now I understand that your real purpose is to spray and be a maximum asshole.

Thanks for the clarification.

JL


billl7


Nov 15, 2008, 11:21 AM
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Johnny_Fang wrote:
I think, though, that there is a difference between a blunt-and-to-the-point-style versus writing that you think it is sad that someone DIDN'T die, no matter how ignorant their actions.
I would not argue otherwise.


blondgecko
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Nov 15, 2008, 3:44 PM
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Thread locked for the time being, but I'm going to leave things in place pending a mod discussion.

This:

In reply to:
I think, though, that there is a difference between a blunt-and-to-the-point-style versus writing that you think it is sad that someone DIDN'T die, no matter how ignorant their action.

is exactly right. Pointing out that something was (or is) dumb, and likely to get someone killed: OK. Saying that someone should have been killed: Most definitely NOT OK.


(This post was edited by blondgecko on Nov 15, 2008, 3:48 PM)


Partner j_ung


Nov 16, 2008, 10:12 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
This exactly the place for these feelings to be presented.

And if everybody "presents" them like you did, what exactly do you think this will become? How many lives will you save by turning the entire I&A forum into a referendum on whether or not you're justified in being a prick?

I know you have a hell of a lot of good info and feedback, and there are a lot of us who feel similarly. Maybe this is arrogance on my part, but in this forum, you could probably make a difference... if you could manage to not turn every thread you post to into a flame war. And if you can't, thanks but no thanks.

I'll leave the thread the way it is -- locked. Here's a compromise, if you're interested: if anybody would like to start a new thread discussing the most effective ways to communicate in the I&A Forum, please feel free. As long as it isn't in regard to a specific accident, I promise we won't moderate that thread as heavily as this one.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Nov 16, 2008, 10:16 PM)


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