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dingus


Nov 26, 2008, 7:08 AM
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How to Collaborate with Freedom Loving and Independant Climbers
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I've made no secret for my distaste for how the Momma/Nannyism of this site is an insult to the spirit of climbers. I reject the Group-Think consensus model here as a dumbing down of the spirit that drives this sport.

Now, more than ever, really.

I've also made no secret I am fond of the Supertopo model. Some of the regulars here have visited that site (recently or in the more distant past) and have come away expressing their dislike for the seeming chaotic nature of the forum (no subforums, yeah! Tastes do differ!), a constant stream of politcal patter and not a few trolls.

All true.

And yet? Their moderation is based upon the Whackamole - you never know when its going to pop up and zap somebody but be rest assured no explanation will be offered when it happens. So rare is a mod event that when someone is censored there really isn't any question as to why.

But the thing I respect the most from that site and the one elemental truth I think is representedby Supertopo management is this - treat the members of your forum as peers and colllegues and forget about the Momma/Nanny/Teacher Mantle so many here seem to want.

Now I suspect that rc.com wants to become (and may already be of course) the PREMIERE NOOB CLIMBING SITE on the internet. It certainly has that rep outside these hallowed forums.

Anyway, Chris Mac, the owner of Supertopo, actually collaorates with his forum collegues. He rarely posts, almost never engages in banter or casual threads of any kind. Yet he creates indexes to good posts and stories, he is collaborating on a new big wall book, soliciting online input from some of the better wall climbers in the world.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=692927

But at the end of the day Chris Mac acknowledges the forum posters OWN THEIR OWN WORK. And (GASP!) he acknowledges that input and he will stop using it if asked.

I suggest you people take a look at how climbers work with climbers and stop the Momma/Nannyism RIGHT NOW.

Good day to you all
DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Nov 26, 2008, 7:09 AM)


caughtinside


Nov 26, 2008, 11:28 AM
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Re: [dingus] How to Collaborate with Freedom Loving and Independant Climbers [In reply to]
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Yo ding,

I'd point out that you can't delete any post on ST after a week.

But I like the rest of your treatise.


dingus


Nov 26, 2008, 11:35 AM
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True true. But you know what? He will delete a posters posts if asked and has done so in the past.

Imagine that!!!11111

Respecting copyrights. The nerve of that guy!

DMT


caughtinside


Nov 26, 2008, 11:42 AM
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True. I think ST gets a lot of respect because Chris Mac is a real climber who has been out there and done some real climbing. And he in turn respects other climbers.

I haven't run into NameMedia out on the rocks or giving a slideshow.


Partner epoch
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Nov 26, 2008, 11:43 AM
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Re: [dingus] How to Collaborate with Freedom Loving and Independant Climbers [In reply to]
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We will not delete your account. Deal with it.

You do, however, have the same right to delete all of your posts, just as you created them, you have the same control to delete them.


caughtinside


Nov 26, 2008, 11:46 AM
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epoch wrote:
We will not delete your account. Deal with it.

You do, however, have the same right to delete all of your posts, just as you created them, you have the same control to delete them.

you are the worst nanny mod here. Please wake up and fire yourself.


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Nov 26, 2008, 11:49 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
epoch wrote:
We will not delete your account. Deal with it.

You do, however, have the same right to delete all of your posts, just as you created them, you have the same control to delete them.

you are the worst nanny mod here. Please wake up and fire yourself.
We won't delete your account either.


dingus


Nov 26, 2008, 11:52 AM
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We. Haha. RC.Borg.

I will not assimilate.

DMT


caughtinside


Nov 26, 2008, 11:55 AM
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epoch wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
epoch wrote:
We will not delete your account. Deal with it.

You do, however, have the same right to delete all of your posts, just as you created them, you have the same control to delete them.

you are the worst nanny mod here. Please wake up and fire yourself.
We won't delete your account either.

if I could delete your account I would. here and on the grupe.

Just because.


Partner j_ung


Nov 26, 2008, 1:57 PM
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dingus wrote:
We. Haha. RC.Borg.

I will not assimilate.

DMT

That's cool. I will not delete all your posts. There are a variety of reasons. And here they are:

1. Supertopo doesn't have a quote feature. I could be wrong, but I suspect if it did, Chris might not be able to help anybody who wanted to erase their existence on the site, not matter how much he wanted to.
2. I freely admit that I place a very value on the continuity of this knowledge base. Granted, it ain't exactly the Library at Alexandria. It's a little like an ocean that's only ankle deep, but I hope it'll get better.
3. You have the ability to delete all your posts. I understand that this is difficult when you've posted thousands of times. But honestly, I'd have more empathy if you weren't making my number-2 reason even harder to swallow almost every single day.
4. There's no such thing as a "nuke button." I have to pay developers to do it, and even then, see number 1 above.

You can either accept those reasons or not, but I'm afraid the answer will still be the same.

Jay


Partner j_ung


Nov 26, 2008, 1:58 PM
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Please feel free to PM or email me if you'd like to discuss this more.


Partner j_ung


Nov 27, 2008, 5:03 AM
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Since you haven't PM-ed or emailed, I'll post here what I would have told you then. I want to apologize, not for not deleting your posts, but because I don't think you've really gotten a real attempt at an explanation from me yet. I have no excuse. That's weak customer service. I hope you'll forgive me, at least for that much.


Partner j_ung


Nov 29, 2008, 7:02 AM
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Re: [dingus] How to Collaborate with Freedom Loving and Independant Climbers [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
I've made no secret for my distaste for how the Momma/Nannyism of this site is an insult to the spirit of climbers. I reject the Group-Think consensus model here as a dumbing down of the spirit that drives this sport.

Now, more than ever, really.

I've also made no secret I am fond of the Supertopo model. Some of the regulars here have visited that site (recently or in the more distant past) and have come away expressing their dislike for the seeming chaotic nature of the forum (no subforums, yeah! Tastes do differ!), a constant stream of politcal patter and not a few trolls.

All true.

And yet? Their moderation is based upon the Whackamole - you never know when its going to pop up and zap somebody but be rest assured no explanation will be offered when it happens. So rare is a mod event that when someone is censored there really isn't any question as to why.

But the thing I respect the most from that site and the one elemental truth I think is representedby Supertopo management is this - treat the members of your forum as peers and colllegues and forget about the Momma/Nanny/Teacher Mantle so many here seem to want.

Now I suspect that rc.com wants to become (and may already be of course) the PREMIERE NOOB CLIMBING SITE on the internet. It certainly has that rep outside these hallowed forums.

Anyway, Chris Mac, the owner of Supertopo, actually collaorates with his forum collegues. He rarely posts, almost never engages in banter or casual threads of any kind. Yet he creates indexes to good posts and stories, he is collaborating on a new big wall book, soliciting online input from some of the better wall climbers in the world.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=692927

But at the end of the day Chris Mac acknowledges the forum posters OWN THEIR OWN WORK. And (GASP!) he acknowledges that input and he will stop using it if asked.

I suggest you people take a look at how climbers work with climbers and stop the Momma/Nannyism RIGHT NOW.

Good day to you all
DMT

The above constitutes an attack. I let it lie because, contrary to what you think, I have some degree of respect for your opinions.

Edit to add:

I don't exactly like where this is going -- we both know what'll happen if it continues. Attack, respond, attack, respond... c'mon, man. If you'd care to actually talk, I'm listening, and I hope you are, too. Just say the word.

The thread's open. The ball's in your court -- again. Please drop the attacks.

Jay Young


(This post was edited by j_ung on Nov 29, 2008, 8:36 AM)


caughtinside


Nov 29, 2008, 10:26 AM
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that's not a personal attack, big difference. It's an opinion on the way the site is run. And it's one I share. Post deleting, warnings, time outs = nannyism.


wanderlustmd


Nov 29, 2008, 1:04 PM
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I see what you're saying Dingus, and Jay makes some good points as well. At the end of the day, post where you like. They are two different sites, albeit run differently, but that's the game: differences. There's nothing wrong with it.

ST is definately more of a grassroots community, and one I enjoy. RC is just a different beast, and it too has benefits I don't get on the Taco. Sub-forums and moderation, while definately a double edge sword, are beneficial in that I don't have wade though nutcase political, trolling and noob shoe threads to look for deals on a new set of nuts or new TRs.

I guess internet communication doesn't play a major enough role in my life to warrent me caring about it too much. I don't care if my posts are modded (within reason) or what have you. I don't post too often these days anyway. RC.com was primarily a way for me to meet people to climb with , and now it's a way to stay in touch with folks so we can climb again!

Don't get me wrong, I see what you are saying about how climbers interact and the connotations these forums have. It's just never been that big of a deal with me. People I couldn't stand over at ST I subsequently met in Yosemite and found they were nice people.

In terms of deleting post content, can't help you there.


(This post was edited by wanderlustmd on Nov 29, 2008, 1:11 PM)


wanderlustmd


Nov 29, 2008, 1:04 PM
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caughtinside wrote:
that's not a personal attack, big difference. It's an opinion on the way the site is run. And it's one I share. Post deleting, warnings, time outs = nannyism.
I didn't send Twitch, does that make me a nanny?Wink


Partner j_ung


Dec 1, 2008, 6:33 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
that's not a personal attack, big difference. It's an opinion on the way the site is run. And it's one I share. Post deleting, warnings, time outs = nannyism.

I'm going to disagree on whether or not it's an attack. It sure feels like one.

But, the thread is open and I'm not afraid to talk this through. I know it looks like there's more moderating right now, and yeah, the net modding level is probably higher. But that raise is also restricted to certain forums, and in those cases, Accidents, Ladies Room, In Memory Of, etc, I feel entirely justified in keeping it so. There are still plenty of "theaters" on RC.com for people who like watching the escalation of flame wars to get it.

We're at a bit of a disadvantage on something here. Users see when we moderate, especially with the transparency rule we stick to like glue, but you never see the stuff we decide not to moderate. They far outnumber the cases in which we step in. Without throwing anybody under the bus, a week can't go by without me getting a request or two to moderate something, which I politely decline. In one case, the request came from a gear maker whose ad money we subsequently lost. Seriously, he told our ad-sales guy directly that, since I -- j_ung -- am so biased against his company, he won't advertise here. And in hindsight, I would do the exact same thing over again if I had the opportunity.

In Soapbox and Campground you guys have less moderation now, not more. And in the black forums, I'm currently working to put more power directly into users' hands. Post rating, killfiling, personal filters... though they're slow getting here, they're all at or near the top of my priorities for the forums.

I'm even revisiting dingus' post deletion thing right now, despite that I think dingus brought it about in an insult and my emphatic no above. (I guess it wasn't so emphatic after all. Blush)

RC.com will never go to a forum model like Supertopo's while I'm here. Yeah, both are climbing sites, but they're not even remotely alike in scope, purpose, infrastructure, blah blah... It's like comparing a semi with a sports car. They're both on the road, but...

Believe it or not, the vast majority of people who come here on a daily basis never post. I have no way of knowing why that is, but I guess one reason is the tone of the forums, which less moderating pretty much encourages. I don't know if they're beginners or grizzled vets or total non-climbers who clicked a Google link on a whim. I'm trying to walk a fine line between inviting them in so we can find out and not spoiling the party entirely.


Partner j_ung


Dec 5, 2008, 11:08 AM
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I don't want this to seem like a promise in any way, shape or form, but I'm working on something that may be an acceptable compromise for the site and people who want to delete, but have enough posts that self-deleting isn't a decent option.

Please stay tuned.


dingus


Dec 5, 2008, 11:31 AM
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Very cool. Thank you for your efforts.

DMT


Partner j_ung


Dec 5, 2008, 12:33 PM
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You're very welcome.


notapplicable


Dec 6, 2008, 12:35 PM
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j_ung wrote:
I don't want this to seem like a promise in any way, shape or form, but I'm working on something that may be an acceptable compromise for the site and people who want to delete, but have enough posts that self-deleting isn't a decent option.

Please stay tuned.


I really think this is a mistake Jay, I really do.

The information archive, which I'm glad your working to improve the function and accessibility of, is one of the strong points of this site and its not a good idea to have a bunch of holes punched in it. Obviously I have no idea exactly what your working on but take a look at this thread - http://www.rockclimbing.com/...orum.cgi?post=755354 - and imagine if Curt or Jay or Rgold got their panties in a bunch and deleted their posts, hell what if two of them did! A highly informative and entertaining read that I just stumbled across while browsing through the archive (something I do rather often) would be both awkward to read and more importantly less thorough.

When you post to a privately owned and public forum, that post is a contribution to the WWW. and you forfeit ownership, especially when there is a quote function and your words become part of an on going dialogue which relies on the presence of you contribution to give context to the contributions of others. You can't have entire threads and conversations, some of which are rather involved and important (relatively speaking), subject to the whim of one poster. Those that want to "own" their work should think about those who's own work on here will be compromised by the removal of a link in the thread.

In the real world an author can't demand that books which contain a quote of theirs be yanked from the shelves, if he/she first gave permission for it to be quoted. As soon as a person posts to a site like this, they are giving any and everyone permission to quote them and use their work.

Personally I don't like the idea of a delete button at all but most time a post will get quoted so it rarely becomes an issue and its not often that anything of value is lost, we just miss out on a good laugh now and again.


If they want to delete themselves the least you can do is make them go back and do their own dirty work. I'm only one vote but on the issue of wholesale deleting I vote NAY.


dingus


Dec 8, 2008, 7:10 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
In the real world an author can't demand that books which contain a quote of theirs be yanked from the shelves,

In the real world publishers PAY for the right to put those books on the shelves.

DMT


jt512


Dec 8, 2008, 9:42 AM
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epoch wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
epoch wrote:
We will not delete your account. Deal with it.

You do, however, have the same right to delete all of your posts, just as you created them, you have the same control to delete them.

you are the worst nanny mod here. Please wake up and fire yourself.
We won't delete your account either.

Now that Donny is back, maybe he'll delete your account.

Jay


jt512


Dec 8, 2008, 9:50 AM
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j_ung wrote:
dingus wrote:
I've made no secret for my distaste for how the Momma/Nannyism of this site is an insult to the spirit of climbers. I reject the Group-Think consensus model here as a dumbing down of the spirit that drives this sport.

Now, more than ever, really.

I've also made no secret I am fond of the Supertopo model. Some of the regulars here have visited that site (recently or in the more distant past) and have come away expressing their dislike for the seeming chaotic nature of the forum (no subforums, yeah! Tastes do differ!), a constant stream of politcal patter and not a few trolls.

All true.

And yet? Their moderation is based upon the Whackamole - you never know when its going to pop up and zap somebody but be rest assured no explanation will be offered when it happens. So rare is a mod event that when someone is censored there really isn't any question as to why.

But the thing I respect the most from that site and the one elemental truth I think is representedby Supertopo management is this - treat the members of your forum as peers and colllegues and forget about the Momma/Nanny/Teacher Mantle so many here seem to want.

Now I suspect that rc.com wants to become (and may already be of course) the PREMIERE NOOB CLIMBING SITE on the internet. It certainly has that rep outside these hallowed forums.

Anyway, Chris Mac, the owner of Supertopo, actually collaorates with his forum collegues. He rarely posts, almost never engages in banter or casual threads of any kind. Yet he creates indexes to good posts and stories, he is collaborating on a new big wall book, soliciting online input from some of the better wall climbers in the world.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=692927

But at the end of the day Chris Mac acknowledges the forum posters OWN THEIR OWN WORK. And (GASP!) he acknowledges that input and he will stop using it if asked.

I suggest you people take a look at how climbers work with climbers and stop the Momma/Nannyism RIGHT NOW.

Good day to you all
DMT

The above constitutes an attack.

Jay, I think you need to think good and hard about what constitutes an "attack." I see nothing in Dingus's post but genuine criticism of the site's philosophy and policies. It is abhorrent to think that you would even remotely consider a post like this objectionable, let alone grounds for moderation.

Jay


notapplicable


Dec 8, 2008, 10:02 AM
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dingus wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
In the real world an author can't demand that books which contain a quote of theirs be yanked from the shelves,

In the real world publishers PAY for the right to put those books on the shelves.

DMT


Yep and on here, being the great philanthropists that we are, we donate our work to the rest of the world. In this open, fluid and globally accessible format, that is really the only way for things to work.

Such is the price of admission my friend. Free to join at the low, low cost of your soul.

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