Dec 4, 2008, 2:52 PM
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Re: [pmyche] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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It said aid climbers are lame. It says a5 is bogus. It claims the 'death fall' mystique is manufactured danger. The author retrobolted an A5 route, so I guess he's a little sensitive about the subject.
Dec 4, 2008, 4:21 PM
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Re: [jh_angel] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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Didn't read the article, but based on the comments from above then I'll throw my neck out there and say that I don't know what the big deal is. It's a style, and whatever one person wants to do is what that one person wants to do. I don't see why I should care if that person likes or dislikes aid. It doesn't affect me, and I'm not so sure it should affect others either.
I interpreted and make note of, Chris Kalous having an issue with the current system for categorizing aid climbs. Not to be confused with the act of aiding itself. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Note: I have never done a bit of aid in my life. Anyone in the South East need an apprentice?
(This post was edited by MikeSaint on Dec 4, 2008, 6:01 PM)
Dec 4, 2008, 6:00 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Didn't read the article, but based on the comments from above then I'll throw my neck out there and say that I don't know what the big deal is. It's a style, and whatever one person wants to do is what that one person wants to do. I don't see why I should care if that person likes or dislikes aid. It doesn't affect me, and I'm not so sure it should affect others either.
The dude retrobolted someone else's route, enroute to dissing A5. No I don't think this will affect 99.99% of us in the least. But there is a .01% that really takes that shit seriously.
I interpreted and make note of, Chris Kalous having an issue with the current system for categorizing aid climbsnot the act of aiding itself.
No he has an issue with the Valley Gods and the status quo. This is a social issue alone and goes back to the Robbins/Valley Christian Harding/Downward Bound wars.
Dec 4, 2008, 6:57 PM
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Re: [dingus] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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dingus wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Didn't read the article, but based on the comments from above then I'll throw my neck out there and say that I don't know what the big deal is. It's a style, and whatever one person wants to do is what that one person wants to do. I don't see why I should care if that person likes or dislikes aid. It doesn't affect me, and I'm not so sure it should affect others either.
The dude retrobolted someone else's route, enroute to dissing A5. No I don't think this will affect 99.99% of us in the least. But there is a .01% that really takes that shit seriously.
DMT
Well, my personal philosophy is that people should be able to do what they need to do. He retro-bolted it and dissed the original style. I'm OK with that. What I'm not OK with is him doing that and taking the response personally. In other words, if you're going to do something then expect the consequences. If he can't stand the heat then he shouldn't have stuck his neck out. To further my point, while it doesn't necessarily bother me that he did this, I feel it entirely appropriate for folks to flame him, too, if they don't agree with his actions.
Dec 4, 2008, 7:31 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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Haha. Try to follow my logic:
If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:
1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall OR 2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!
I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.
Dec 4, 2008, 8:51 PM
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Re: [rocks_good_hippies_bad] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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rocks_good_hippies_bad wrote:
Haha. Try to follow my logic:
If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:
1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall OR 2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!
I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.
Dec 5, 2008, 12:46 AM
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Re: [rocks_good_hippies_bad] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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rocks_good_hippies_bad wrote:
2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!
I find this statement ironic (and ignorant) considering that some of the boldest, most visionary climbers in the Valley today hail from Europe (Germany, Belgium, GB for example).
Dec 5, 2008, 2:12 AM
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Re: [rocks_good_hippies_bad] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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rocks_good_hippies_bad wrote:
Haha. Try to follow my logic:
If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:
1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall OR 2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!
I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.
He put bolts where there were previously rivets, which also require drilling. Thus making an aid route free-able, which most would agree is a better style. That was one of his points; If you are going to drill, do it right the first time and put in a bolt which can be used by aid and free climbers alike.
Dec 5, 2008, 2:32 AM
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Re: [jh_angel] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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About the rant of his and aid climbing.
I don't aid climb but when I see Ammon McNeeley, Ivo Ninov, or Chris Mcnamara aid climbing. Im pretty impressed, those guys have got balls. The shit ammon does is some insane shit. Have you seen First Ascent? well there is a clip on mcneeley and its some bold stuff.
And I agree with people above that have said this: Its just a style of climbing, its just like another style.
Dec 5, 2008, 3:07 AM
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Re: [krosbakken] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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As a complete outsider to the concept, the Aid climbing thing has always confused the shit out of me. There seem to be so many contradictions, so much double talk and double standards, so much "respect" for history that usually ends up with these ridiculously convoluted rule sets... it just seems so, pointless.
Here's an example. And again, this is coming from someone who the old-timers would call "ignorant". I've never aid climbed, barely have any real climbing in my extremely short "career", and am speaking solely from my own logical reasoning as an admitted outsider with no first-hand knowledge.
My example involves retro-bolting. And let's get this out of the way - I don't believe in grid bolting, and I believe retro bolting is a complete dick move (most of the time!). However, I always hear the same argument being sprayed about retro-bolting, and this is the thing that reeks of double standards to me.
That argument goes something like this: "if you can't do the line as it was originally climbed, you have no right to bring the climb down to your level"
Yet, these same "old timers" or "respectful" climbers seem to have no problem with bolt ladders in blank sections, or of drilling hook holes. To me, drilling a hook hole is bringing the mountain down to your level just as much as placing a bolt, perhaps even more. The sport climber clipping bolts might be bringing the protection down to his level, but the aid climber drilling hook holes is bringing the actual climbing down to his level. At least the "euro trash sport weenie" is climbing the features that the rock gave him, while the aid purist is creating new features to climb on.
It all seems so convoluted and stupid, in my humble opinion.
Dec 5, 2008, 3:39 AM
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[Valarc] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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F*** Rockclimbing. It's like a bunch of high school kids stuck in their cliches and pissing and moaning about how they are better than the next. We should all quit and take up curling I bet there are less things to hate people for.
Dec 5, 2008, 3:45 AM
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Re: [jh_angel] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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jh_angel wrote:
rocks_good_hippies_bad wrote:
Haha. Try to follow my logic:
If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:
1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall OR 2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!
I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.
He put bolts where there were previously rivets, which also require drilling. Thus making an aid route free-able, which most would agree is a better style. That was one of his points; If you are going to drill, do it right the first time and put in a bolt which can be used by aid and free climbers alike.
As I understand it; a rivet will not hold a fall...so if he placed bolts where there were rivets; then he has ruined this A5, right? I think that's wrong. That's like chipping holds to me.
Dec 5, 2008, 3:55 AM
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Re: [PosiDave] [Valarc] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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PosiDave wrote:
F*** Rockclimbing. It's like a bunch of high school kids stuck in their cliches and pissing and moaning about how they are better than the next. We should all quit and take up curling I bet there are less things to hate people for.
Dec 5, 2008, 4:07 AM
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Re: [Lazlo] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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So you think once a climb is done on aid it should stay that way forever and never be freed? For example: keeping something as A5 is better than having it be, for instance, 5.13 with the option of doing it as an A1?
Many aid routes have been freed over the years, and sometimes that requires putting in bolts. Sometimes in place of other drilled pro, sometimes not. So the main question to think over is: If an A5 can be freed, but it needs bolts, should it be bolted and freed or not? (Keep in mind many A5s have "enhanced" features that make them aid-able, they are not all natural)
Dec 5, 2008, 4:18 AM
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Re: [jh_angel] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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jh_angel wrote:
So you think once a climb is done on aid it should stay that way forever and never be freed? For example: keeping something as A5 is better than having it be, for instance, 5.13 with the option of doing it as an A1?
Many aid routes have been freed over the years, and sometimes that requires putting in bolts. Sometimes in place of other drilled pro, sometimes not. So the main question to think over is: If an A5 can be freed, but it needs bolts, should it be bolted and freed or not? (Keep in mind many A5s have "enhanced" features that make them aid-able, they are not all natural)
I'll just simply say; that if I put up a route of my own; and someone lowered it's grade (whether it's aid, free, ect.) I would be very unhappy. It certainly would not be the same route any longer.
Whoo Hoo for the sport climbers...boohoo for the aid climbers.
Lets remove some RAWLS on a sport route and start hooking the sleeves!
Dec 5, 2008, 4:19 AM
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Re: [jh_angel] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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jh_angel wrote:
So you think once a climb is done on aid it should stay that way forever and never be freed? For example: keeping something as A5 is better than having it be, for instance, 5.13 with the option of doing it as an A1?
Many aid routes have been freed over the years, and sometimes that requires putting in bolts. Sometimes in place of other drilled pro, sometimes not. So the main question to think over is: If an A5 can be freed, but it needs bolts, should it be bolted and freed or not? (Keep in mind many A5s have "enhanced" features that make them aid-able, they are not all natural)
I agree with this. Yes a climb may have to be aided at first but if it can be free climbed then make it free able. ( if that made any sense at all ).
Theres a video clip of tommy caldwell and beth rodden in the grand canyon wanting to free an aid climb but first chris mcnamara aided up there and made sure that all the pro was there and it was possible, and I think that is where aid climbing is great to have. With aid climbing your able to explore further, and then later free climb it (if possible, and aiding up it will help determine if it is possible or not).
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