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majid_sabet
Dec 14, 2008, 2:44 AM
Post #26 of 33
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h4lf_rope wrote: Have you ever lost a student this way? Have you ever wanted to?
I have trained over 200+ people so far not even once I had to worry about this practice however; I had three students refused to do it. One pissed in pants after first 30 second and another one almost panicked to death on the first minute .One guy was Everest veteran and lost his own partner in Broad peak on avi and barley escaped himself a year before he took my course. After he went to the hole, he told me he had never thought how freighting avis were till he was in the hole. IMO, all avi trainings should include at least one minute burial in the hole cause most first responder do not understand how serious it is to locate avi victims in the first five minutes.
MS
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 14, 2008, 2:47 AM)
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qwert
Dec 14, 2008, 10:42 AM
Post #27 of 33
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majid_sabet wrote: h4lf_rope wrote: Have you ever lost a student this way? Have you ever wanted to? I have trained over 200+ people so far not even once I had to worry about this practice however; I had three students refused to do it. One pissed in pants after first 30 second and another one almost panicked to death on the first minute .One guy was Everest veteran and lost his own partner in Broad peak on avi and barley escaped himself a year before he took my course. After he went to the hole, he told me he had never thought how freighting avis were till he was in the hole. IMO, all avi trainings should include at least one minute burial in the hole cause most first responder do not understand how serious it is to locate avi victims in the first five minutes. MS
Actually hitting someone with a probe is a good practice, to help recongnizing the difference betwenn -say the grass below the avalanche- and a human, but actually buriying the people?
In the course i had, we where simply digging a open sided snow cave at the side of a trenche, so that people could easily get in and out of it, whereas the others stood above it and probed. so everyone got the chance to probe and be probed.
I understand what your goal with the burying is. Getting to experience the whole "trapped" thing.
But i dont think that it really works. As far as i see it, the people simply get into the ditch and get slowly buried in some loose snow.
And now i can tell you that that does not really simulate the avalnche situation. To get a more realistic experience you should blindfold the people and get them on a rollercoaster, so that they loose orientation. Then throw them into the ditch (but tie their hands, so that they cant built a breathing cave) and quickly cover them in snow, and really compact the snow. That could be somewhat realistic!
But as you might guess, that is rahter dangerous, so i would not advise doing that.
As it seems even your approach is quite risky, with people panicking, so i am not shure if its worth it.
qwert
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hafilax
Dec 15, 2008, 5:14 PM
Post #28 of 33
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Registered: Dec 12, 2007
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The ski movie folks do serious avi evaluations taking hours including ski cutting similar aspect slopes and pits, working their way up to the big shot. Even then they still set off multiple big avalanches and with serious consequences. The difference there is that they have helicopters on hand and a team ready to find the person.
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skiclimb
Dec 15, 2008, 5:16 PM
Post #29 of 33
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Registered: Jan 11, 2004
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Glad you guys seem to be ok.
Just a few little peices of information.
Low snow years often have higher rates of avalanche accidents than High snow years.
Seems counter-intuitive but it is statistically true.
2 main reasons.
probably the largest factor is that when you finally get snow people are tempted to rush up in the mountains during the 48 hrs during which avalanche hazard is typically highest after a storm
2nd and more subtle ..long clear stretches of weather tend to be cold (causing a heat transfer problem between a warmer snowpack and colder air) and can cause sublimation of layers and the extremely dangerous layer of hoar frost that can create longterm high instability in a snowpack. Also you often have a shallow snowpack with the typical weak rotten sublimated gound layer. This allows fractures all the way to the ground which you don't typically get in higher snowfall years.
Just a heads up and maybe a bit of useful advanced avalanche info.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Dec 15, 2008, 5:23 PM)
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KeeperOfMaps
Dec 16, 2008, 4:01 AM
Post #30 of 33
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Registered: Sep 9, 2008
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Wow! I'm glad to hear that you and your friend are relatively unscathed. :)
I was wondering if you were carrying avalanche beacons? Also, I don't recall whether you mentioned how deep the snow was at the end of your "ride".
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the_climber
Dec 17, 2008, 8:13 PM
Post #31 of 33
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Registered: Oct 9, 2003
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qwert, good to hear you two are going to be fine. Sounds like you got off easier than we did a number of years ago in a similar "should have known better" trip.
Shoot me a PM if you want and I can relay my experiances and how it's effected my approach and outlook on climbing, and how it's effected my partners I've climbed with after my Avi.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Dec 18, 2008, 12:08 AM)
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the_climber
Dec 17, 2008, 8:14 PM
Post #32 of 33
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Registered: Oct 9, 2003
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dan2see wrote: *snip* Oh well, if you manage your hikes like you manage your posts, I guess you'll walk into more troubles. *snip*
I'm not even going start on this one.
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HIGHER_CLIMBER
Dec 18, 2008, 6:06 PM
Post #33 of 33
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Registered: Oct 30, 2008
Posts: 113
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8flood8 wrote: qwert wrote: Just sitting here, and not knowing wether should call today a really good or a bad day.  qwert The real question that belies this answer is: "Did you have to use your AK?"
CLASSIC
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