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Tree_wrangler


Feb 5, 2009, 9:23 AM
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They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD
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Every couple of weeks, I get a copy of the Forest Service Law Enforcement report.

Just got this last week:

"On 1/13, LEO’s investigated illegal ARPA-related activities at a rock shelter on the Cumberland RD. They found an area where someone had constructed a trail by clearing vegetation and made steps. In addition, someone had placed climbing bolts into the cliff face which created 13 new climbing routes on NFS lands and 17 on private property. The investigation is ongoing."

This was almost a month ago.....so the route-builder has probably already been nailed.

If not, and it's you.....they found your spot, and you're in a heap of trouble (vandalizing an archaeological site, trail building on FS lands, and vandalizing public property).

Keep trail "building" to a minimum, and only where the alternative (an eroding hillside) would be much more degrading.

Cultural sites are not for climbing....no matter how good the rock...it's not your guaranteed right to climb it.

Bolting someone else's private land? Come on.......really?

FYI.


dingus


Feb 5, 2009, 9:28 AM
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Re: [Tree_wrangler] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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Tree_wrangler wrote:
(vandalizing an archaeological site,

I'm curious - what does that mean? There is no other mention of it in your post....

DMT


Tree_wrangler


Feb 5, 2009, 9:38 AM
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Re: [dingus] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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In terms of the specifics, I don't know (I'm on the other side of the country), although I imagine that the bolting and trailbuilding ARE the vandalism.

It was in the original post, although disguised as bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo:

In reply to:
illegal ARPA-related activities at a rock shelter

ARPA is the Archaeologica Resources Protection Act

the "rock shelter" would be at least one of the resources here. Virtually any activity, other than looking at it, would be disallowed by ARPA.


dingus


Feb 5, 2009, 9:40 AM
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Re: [Tree_wrangler] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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Tree_wrangler wrote:
In terms of the specifics, I don't know (I'm on the other side of the country), although I imagine that the bolting and trailbuilding ARE the vandalism.

It was in the original post, although disguised as bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo:

In reply to:
illegal ARPA-related activities at a rock shelter

ARPA is the Archaeologica Resources Protection Act

the "rock shelter" would be at least one of the resources here. Virtually any activity, other than looking at it, would be disallowed by ARPA.

Rock shelter? What is that, a cave? A stone hut constructed by CCC crews? Do you know? Cuz it doesn't sound like anything archeological, at all.

Cheers
DMT


troutboy


Feb 5, 2009, 9:42 AM
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Re: [dingus] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Tree_wrangler wrote:
(vandalizing an archaeological site,

I'm curious - what does that mean? There is no other mention of it in your post....

DMT

Yep, there is. ARPA = Archaeological Resources Protection Act. ARPA-related is Park Service speak for damaging a designated archaeological site. Almost all rock shelters in NPS or Forest Service Jurisdiction are designated sites.

Digging to put in steps and a trail would fit. It is a Federal offense and entails serious fines and potential jail time, BTW. Although the most serious penalties are usually only applied to repeat artifact seekers, not ancillary damage from other activities.


EDIT:

TO addrerss your other question D:

Almost every rock shelter in the Appalachians was inhabited by Native Americans. There are artifacts in many of them. A rock shelter is any overhanging area where the roof shelters the inhabitant from the elements. Imagine those shallow rock overhangs throught your homeland (TN, right ?) and you get the picture. They may be real caves where the inhabitant could get into total darkness, large shelters a hundred feet or more wide and tens of feet deep, or very small, barely small enough to stand or sit in.

Does that help ?
TS


(This post was edited by troutboy on Feb 5, 2009, 9:47 AM)


dingus


Feb 5, 2009, 9:44 AM
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Re: [troutboy] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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troutboy wrote:
dingus wrote:
Tree_wrangler wrote:
(vandalizing an archaeological site,

I'm curious - what does that mean? There is no other mention of it in your post....

DMT

Yep, there is. ARPA = Archaeological Resources Protection Act. ARPA-related is Park Service speak for damaging a designated archaeological site. Almost all rock shelters in NPS or Forest Service Jurisdiction are designated sites.

Digging to put in steps and a trail would fit. It is a Federal offense and entails serious fines and potential jail time, BTW. Although the most serious penalties are usually only applied to repeat artifact seekers, not ancillary damage from other activities.

TS

I guess I don't know what a rock shelter is.

Cheers
DMT


Tree_wrangler


Feb 5, 2009, 9:44 AM
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Re: [dingus] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Rock shelter? What is that, a cave? A stone hut constructed by CCC crews? Do you know? Cuz it doesn't sound like anything archeological, at all.

Don't know.

But, around here, "rock shelter" is the usual description for dry cave-like overhangs that bear evidence of pre-european human habitation (rock art, artifacts, fire-black on the ceiling)


Tree_wrangler


Feb 5, 2009, 10:24 AM
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Re: [Tree_wrangler] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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I suppose that I should add that I'm not posting this because I'm enjoying the idea of someone getting fined, etc.....I'm just trying to provide a potential heads-up, just in case the routebuilder reads, or has friends who read the posts here.

That way, that person could never go back, devise their "story" (they don't know who built it, they just heard about it at the gym, etc.), or whatever.


CrazyPetie


Feb 5, 2009, 10:29 AM
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Re: [Tree_wrangler] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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Granted that it is technically illegal, doesn't it seem like BS that some society or act can just claim up sites like this? I mean if they were that concerned about it they should be digging and researching and such. If they are done trying to find out how the indians lived in caves (which who really cares anyway), then they should let us climb the rocks.


Tree_wrangler


Feb 5, 2009, 10:59 AM
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Re: [CrazyPetie] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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Well, I won't pretend that I don't think that there is a lot of BS when it comes to archaeology (did you know that ANYTHING man made older than 50 years is protected by ARPA? I once watched an archaologist just melt over some fish-bait jars from 1943)

But, to address this more specifically:

1) The cave, it's use, it's recognition as a cultural resource, etc. all predate your sport. In a sport where "respect the Original user (i.e. FA party) is the ultimate truth, this would be no different.

2) You're assuming that the Natives are done using it. That must be based on an assumption that they are dead and gone, which they are not. Their use and rights to the site predate yours.

3)
In reply to:
I mean if they were that concerned about it they should be digging and researching and such.

The Sistine Chapel has no research of the kind you're referring to. There is no research to be done, because it's all a matter of recorded history. Therefore, it is now open for random dinks to place rock protection on the walls, since it's just some arbitrary BS that caused it to be protected, and no research remains.

Just because we understand something, doesn't mean that it has lost value. In many cases, it has value only BECAUSE we already understand it. Relict dwellings would fit that category.

You don't necessarily have ANY right to be there at all, let alone climb there. And you really have no legitimate rationale to argue that point. You do share the world with other interest groups after all.


(This post was edited by Tree_wrangler on Feb 5, 2009, 11:04 AM)


dingus


Feb 5, 2009, 11:01 AM
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CrazyPetie wrote:
Granted that it is technically illegal, doesn't it seem like BS that some society or act can just claim up sites like this?

No I think its a good thing. But in all my days I have never seen a signed "Rock Enclosure." I have been to The Enclosure, on the Grand though.... climbers walk through there EVERY DAY, in season.

DMT


dingus


Feb 5, 2009, 11:03 AM
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Re: [Tree_wrangler] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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Tree_wrangler wrote:
You don't have ANY right to be there at all, let alone climb there. And you really have no legitimate rationale to argue that point.

I don't agree with this base premise AT ALL.

No right to BE THERE?

Fuck THAT. Its public land. Certainly inappropriate to damage protected sites in any fashion, on that we see eye to eye.

But can't even look at it??? WALK BY IT???????

When land managers act like they own a piece of our property? SO DO I.

DMT


troutboy


Feb 5, 2009, 11:03 AM
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Re: [CrazyPetie] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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CrazyPetie wrote:
Granted that it is technically illegal, doesn't it seem like BS that some society or act can just claim up sites like this? I mean if they were that concerned about it they should be digging and researching and such. If they are done trying to find out how the indians lived in caves (which who really cares anyway), then they should let us climb the rocks.

Nice try. Report back after you attend Remedial Trolling Wink

T


Tree_wrangler


Feb 5, 2009, 11:14 AM
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Re: [dingus] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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Heh....I was already editing as you were reacting...

Yeah, it was originally a little harsh....

But I'm thinking of Totem Pole Rock for instance...or any site where a Native group might hold sacred, or a burial ground where NOBODY by tradition is allowed, save for burial practices....

We have hard laws about pissing on a gravestone, which is important only to a select culture, but folks are so thin-skinned when we speak of limiting ourselves with respect to other cultures.

You miss a minor detail relating to public lands....although this debate rages on (good!)

The public lands are held in the public's best interests. That doesn't imply in any way that you shall be guaranteed the right to stand on every square inch of those lands.....in lots of cases, it's in the broad public interest to keep individuals out.

In reply to:
When land managers act like they own a piece of our property? SO DO I.

GOOD.
But you're not the only owner. If the broad consensus amongst ALL the owners is to keep you out, YOU'RE OUT.


dingus


Feb 5, 2009, 11:18 AM
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Re: [Tree_wrangler] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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I'm with you. I think of the Devil's Hole Pupfish, as a case in point.

I'm a decent steward but as a pathfinder this actually strikes close to home. I appreciate the vein in which the thread was offered.

Cheers and thanks

DMT


dead_horse_flats


Feb 5, 2009, 11:21 AM
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Re: [Tree_wrangler] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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This is another good example of the incredible hypocrisy practiced by the national forest service. I am constantly amazed at the "legalized" rape, pillage, and plunder on NFS and BLM land in the rocky mountain west with logging, mining, and drilling. Fussing over a trail and bolts is like worrying about the curtains on the titanic.

However trespassing on private property was just plain retarded.


brotherbbock


Feb 5, 2009, 11:34 AM
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dingus wrote:
Tree_wrangler wrote:
You don't have ANY right to be there at all, let alone climb there. And you really have no legitimate rationale to argue that point.

I don't agree with this base premise AT ALL.

No right to BE THERE?

Fuck THAT. Its public land. Certainly inappropriate to damage protected sites in any fashion, on that we see eye to eye.

But can't even look at it??? WALK BY IT???????

When land managers act like they own a piece of our property? SO DO I.

DMT

I'm definitely gonna go climb this place now. I will do it ninja style. climbing on a piece of history......priceless.


Gmburns2000


Feb 5, 2009, 11:54 AM
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Re: [CrazyPetie] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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CrazyPetie wrote:
Granted that it is technically illegal, doesn't it seem like BS that some society or act can just claim up sites like this? I mean if they were that concerned about it they should be digging and researching and such. If they are done trying to find out how the indians lived in caves (which who really cares anyway), then they should let us climb the rocks.

On top of what others have said, you have to understand that sometimes sites aren't actively dug due to a lack of resources. Maybe that resource is time and effort that they're putting into another location and plan to go to the new location later.

Just because no one is actively digging it, that doesn't mean we can just go stomp on it.


Partner j_ung


Feb 5, 2009, 12:07 PM
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I pretty much agree with the prevailing viewpoint in this thread. I think the situation sums up pretty nicely why we as individual climbers have to police ourselves before somebody decides to do it for us. It'd be nice to hear the FA's side of the story, but without that, this seems like a case of him/her/them not policing themselves.

And now someone else is going to do it for them. I mean to them.


dynosore


Feb 5, 2009, 12:24 PM
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Re: [dead_horse_flats] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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dead_horse_flats wrote:
This is another good example of the incredible hypocrisy practiced by the national forest service. I am constantly amazed at the "legalized" rape, pillage, and plunder on NFS and BLM land in the rocky mountain west with logging, mining, and drilling. Fussing over a trail and bolts is like worrying about the curtains on the titanic.

However trespassing on private property was just plain retarded.

This is correct. Back in the day I used to ride ATV's a lot. Then they closed all the state land, but clear cut thousands of acres where we used to ride, punching in new roads, changing drainage patterns, etc. Tell me what did more damage...a few drunk teens on quads (we stayed on trails) or laying waste to square miles of forest. Pure BS.


Tree_wrangler


Feb 5, 2009, 12:29 PM
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Re: [dead_horse_flats] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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In reply to:
This is another good example of the incredible hypocrisy practiced by the national forest service. I am constantly amazed at the "legalized" rape, pillage, and plunder on NFS and BLM land in the rocky mountain west with logging, mining, and drilling. Fussing over a trail and bolts is like worrying about the curtains on the titanic.

Well, there have been plenty of poor decisions, poor quality folks making poor quality decisions, rarely, there has been actual avarice practiced.....

But, if you had even the slightest idea what kind of planning goes into a FS timber sale these days, "rape" would be the last adjective you'd be allowed to use. All disorganization, bad decisions, waste aside, your public lands (when it comes to the FS and logging, anyhow), are managed under the strictest environmental guidelines IN THE WORLD.

And, most all of it was done in YOUR best interests, even if the decisions were poor in hindsight. For instance, my entire public education was paid for with timber dollars. Whether you value an educated citizen or an old-growth tree more is not the point....the point is that the resource was managed for the public benefit, and the public (me, and all my fellow students), benefitted as promised. And the resource is still there.


dingus


Feb 5, 2009, 12:44 PM
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Re: [Tree_wrangler] They found your secret crag, Cumberland RD [In reply to]
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Tree_wrangler wrote:
In reply to:
This is another good example of the incredible hypocrisy practiced by the national forest service. I am constantly amazed at the "legalized" rape, pillage, and plunder on NFS and BLM land in the rocky mountain west with logging, mining, and drilling. Fussing over a trail and bolts is like worrying about the curtains on the titanic.

Well, there have been plenty of poor decisions, poor quality folks making poor quality decisions, rarely, there has been actual avarice practiced.....

But, if you had even the slightest idea what kind of planning goes into a FS timber sale these days, "rape" would be the last adjective you'd be allowed to use. All disorganization, bad decisions, waste aside, your public lands (when it comes to the FS and logging, anyhow), are managed under the strictest environmental guidelines IN THE WORLD.

And, most all of it was done in YOUR best interests, even if the decisions were poor in hindsight. For instance, my entire public education was paid for with timber dollars. Whether you value an educated citizen or an old-growth tree more is not the point....the point is that the resource was managed for the public benefit, and the public (me, and all my fellow students), benefitted as promised. And the resource is still there.

Yes, some if not much of our public land trusts are managed with good intentions, outcomes notwithstanding.

But pure greed and theft factor into a lot of western land lease sales, etc. When they say 'public good' sometimes the public they''re talking about are the investors and executives who will make a pile of dough off of the public teat.

Like the Bush admin and the Utah oil leases. That was pure greed.

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Feb 5, 2009, 12:45 PM)


lvpyne


Feb 5, 2009, 2:39 PM
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dingus wrote:

I guess I don't know what a rock shelter is.

Archaeologically, a rock shelter just means a cliff overhang, cave, or space that occurs naturally without human construction. A cliff or rock dwelling usually refers to a "shelter" that has added human construction of walls, room blocks, etc. (Think Canyon de Chelly.) Rock shelters can be really difficult to define on an archaeological survey (they're generally pretty small) and will be defined as "shelters" when there is some kind of "material culture" present in association with them (stone tools, old hearths, pottery, etc.)

Every state has different legislation about excavation, recording, allowing people around/near the site, whatever. And any kind of federal legislation about sites will be interpreted differently state by state depending on the relationship between state archaeologists and local tribes. (This is generally influenced by whatever repatriation policy the state has with local groups.)

Additionally, states have different laws about dealing with prehistoric and, especially, historic artifacts. Some states require that anything older than, say, 50 years be attributed and counted as a "historical artifact" (i.e. the bait jars...) and some states require that artifacts be at least a hundred years old before they're worth the state's time and money to house/catalog/museum curate.


dingus


Feb 5, 2009, 2:52 PM
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lvpyne wrote:
dingus wrote:

I guess I don't know what a rock shelter is.

Archaeologically, a rock shelter just means a cliff overhang, cave, or space that occurs naturally without human construction. A cliff or rock dwelling usually refers to a "shelter" that has added human construction of walls, room blocks, etc. (Think Canyon de Chelly.) Rock shelters can be really difficult to define on an archaeological survey (they're generally pretty small) and will be defined as "shelters" when there is some kind of "material culture" present in association with them (stone tools, old hearths, pottery, etc.)

Every state has different legislation about excavation, recording, allowing people around/near the site, whatever. And any kind of federal legislation about sites will be interpreted differently state by state depending on the relationship between state archaeologists and local tribes. (This is generally influenced by whatever repatriation policy the state has with local groups.)

Additionally, states have different laws about dealing with prehistoric and, especially, historic artifacts. Some states require that anything older than, say, 50 years be attributed and counted as a "historical artifact" (i.e. the bait jars...) and some states require that artifacts be at least a hundred years old before they're worth the state's time and money to house/catalog/museum curate.

THANKS!

DMT


dead_horse_flats


Feb 5, 2009, 3:30 PM
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Tree_wrangler wrote:
In reply to:
This is another good example of the incredible hypocrisy practiced by the national forest service. I am constantly amazed at the "legalized" rape, pillage, and plunder on NFS and BLM land in the rocky mountain west with logging, mining, and drilling. Fussing over a trail and bolts is like worrying about the curtains on the titanic.

Well, there have been plenty of poor decisions, poor quality folks making poor quality decisions, rarely, there has been actual avarice practiced.....

But, if you had even the slightest idea what kind of planning goes into a FS timber sale these days, "rape" would be the last adjective you'd be allowed to use. All disorganization, bad decisions, waste aside, your public lands (when it comes to the FS and logging, anyhow), are managed under the strictest environmental guidelines IN THE WORLD.

And, most all of it was done in YOUR best interests, even if the decisions were poor in hindsight. For instance, my entire public education was paid for with timber dollars. Whether you value an educated citizen or an old-growth tree more is not the point....the point is that the resource was managed for the public benefit, and the public (me, and all my fellow students), benefitted as promised. And the resource is still there.

I have to disagree with you based on my first hand experience. With regards to logging, NFS planning aside ( I know they go thru plenty of paperwork ), the result I see on the ground is nothing less than driving a bull dozer over every square inch and completely changing the terrain. The forests near my house were recently clear cut and the result looks like the blasted terrain in those old films from WWI. All the topsoil washed away afterward and silted up the streams. It just looks like hell. Plus they left slash piles all over the place. Was the NFS plan to strip the ground bare so that the only thing left is weeds (mostly invasive species by the way).

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