(vandalizing an archaeological site,

illegal ARPA-related activities at a rock shelter

In terms of the specifics, I don't know (I'm on the other side of the country), although I imagine that the bolting and trailbuilding ARE the vandalism.

It was in the original post, although disguised as bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo:


ARPA is the Archaeologica Resources Protection Act

the "rock shelter" would be at least one of the resources here. Virtually any activity, other than looking at it, would be disallowed by ARPA.

I'm curious - what does that mean? There is no other mention of it in your post....

DMT

Yep, there is. ARPA = Archaeological Resources Protection Act. ARPA-related is Park Service speak for damaging a designated archaeological site. Almost all rock shelters in NPS or Forest Service Jurisdiction are designated sites.

Digging to put in steps and a trail would fit. It is a Federal offense and entails serious fines and potential jail time, BTW. Although the most serious penalties are usually only applied to repeat artifact seekers, not ancillary damage from other activities.

TS

Rock shelter? What is that, a cave? A stone hut constructed by CCC crews? Do you know? Cuz it doesn't sound like anything archeological, at all.

I mean if they were that concerned about it they should be digging and researching and such.

Granted that it is technically illegal, doesn't it seem like BS that some society or act can just claim up sites like this?

You don't have ANY right to be there at all, let alone climb there. And you really have no legitimate rationale to argue that point.

Granted that it is technically illegal, doesn't it seem like BS that some society or act can just claim up sites like this? I mean if they were that concerned about it they should be digging and researching and such. If they are done trying to find out how the indians lived in caves (which who really cares anyway), then they should let us climb the rocks.

When land managers act like they own a piece of our property? SO DO I.

I don't agree with this base premise AT ALL.

No right to BE THERE?

Fuck THAT. Its public land. Certainly inappropriate to damage protected sites in any fashion, on that we see eye to eye.

But can't even look at it??? WALK BY IT???????

When land managers act like they own a piece of our property? SO DO I.

DMT

Granted that it is technically illegal, doesn't it seem like BS that some society or act can just claim up sites like this? I mean if they were that concerned about it they should be digging and researching and such. If they are done trying to find out how the indians lived in caves (which who really cares anyway), then they should let us climb the rocks.

This is another good example of the incredible hypocrisy practiced by the national forest service. I am constantly amazed at the "legalized" rape, pillage, and plunder on NFS and BLM land in the rocky mountain west with logging, mining, and drilling. Fussing over a trail and bolts is like worrying about the curtains on the titanic.

However trespassing on private property was just plain retarded.

This is another good example of the incredible hypocrisy practiced by the national forest service. I am constantly amazed at the "legalized" rape, pillage, and plunder on NFS and BLM land in the rocky mountain west with logging, mining, and drilling. Fussing over a trail and bolts is like worrying about the curtains on the titanic.

Well, there have been plenty of poor decisions, poor quality folks making poor quality decisions, rarely, there has been actual avarice practiced.....

But, if you had even the slightest idea what kind of planning goes into a FS timber sale these days, "rape" would be the last adjective you'd be allowed to use. All disorganization, bad decisions, waste aside, your public lands (when it comes to the FS and logging, anyhow), are managed under the strictest environmental guidelines IN THE WORLD.

And, most all of it was done in YOUR best interests, even if the decisions were poor in hindsight. For instance, my entire public education was paid for with timber dollars. Whether you value an educated citizen or an old-growth tree more is not the point....the point is that the resource was managed for the public benefit, and the public (me, and all my fellow students), benefitted as promised. And the resource is still there.

I guess I don't know what a rock shelter is.

Archaeologically, a rock shelter just means a cliff overhang, cave, or space that occurs naturally without human construction. A cliff or rock dwelling usually refers to a "shelter" that has added human construction of walls, room blocks, etc. (Think Canyon de Chelly.) Rock shelters can be really difficult to define on an archaeological survey (they're generally pretty small) and will be defined as "shelters" when there is some kind of "material culture" present in association with them (stone tools, old hearths, pottery, etc.)

Every state has different legislation about excavation, recording, allowing people around/near the site, whatever. And any kind of federal legislation about sites will be interpreted differently state by state depending on the relationship between state archaeologists and local tribes. (This is generally influenced by whatever repatriation policy the state has with local groups.)

Additionally, states have different laws about dealing with prehistoric and, especially, historic artifacts. Some states require that anything older than, say, 50 years be attributed and counted as a "historical artifact" (i.e. the bait jars...) and some states require that artifacts be at least a hundred years old before they're worth the state's time and money to house/catalog/museum curate.

Well, there have been plenty of poor decisions, poor quality folks making poor quality decisions, rarely, there has been actual avarice practiced.....

But, if you had even the slightest idea what kind of planning goes into a FS timber sale these days, "rape" would be the last adjective you'd be allowed to use. All disorganization, bad decisions, waste aside, your public lands (when it comes to the FS and logging, anyhow), are managed under the strictest environmental guidelines IN THE WORLD.

And, most all of it was done in YOUR best interests, even if the decisions were poor in hindsight. For instance, my entire public education was paid for with timber dollars. Whether you value an educated citizen or an old-growth tree more is not the point....the point is that the resource was managed for the public benefit, and the public (me, and all my fellow students), benefitted as promised. And the resource is still there.