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Tricks of the Trade
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garrettweaver


Feb 12, 2009, 6:58 AM
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Tricks of the Trade
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Hello everyone,

Hoping to climb Tricks of the Trade in Zion in the next year or two. Just seeing if anyone has climbed the route before and wanted to share important information like : rack needed, time needed (# of pitches), portaledge required or not (is there bivy ledges) and approach hike.

Thanks,

Garrett


P.S. Come end of May I will be looking for climbing partners in the area.


krusher4


Feb 12, 2009, 7:15 AM
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Re: [garrettweaver] Tricks of the Trade [In reply to]
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wow, your more bad ass then me LOL. I think this is in 50 greatest routes in N. America.


brownie710


Feb 12, 2009, 7:16 AM
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Re: [garrettweaver] Tricks of the Trade [In reply to]
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Garrett, I'm guessing this is stuff you've already gotten off mountain project but here it is.

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/utah/zion_national_park/isaac/105717898?highlightphrase=tricks+of+the+trade&

We've met before while we were facilitating some high ropes, I'm a buddy of Drew B's from Potsdam

edit: This is also often referred to as tricks of the tramp but judging from the posts the route is one in the same.


(This post was edited by brownie710 on Feb 12, 2009, 7:27 AM)


garrettweaver


Feb 12, 2009, 7:27 AM
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Re: [brownie710] Tricks of the Trade [In reply to]
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Hello fellow Potsdam Person,

Just wondering who this could be?


Partner xtrmecat


Feb 12, 2009, 8:39 AM
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Re: [garrettweaver] Tricks of the Trade [In reply to]
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Garrett,
Tricks of the Trade as I think it goes is a 1900 foot, 19 pitch A2+ just to the right of the Southeast Buttress on Isaac. Approach appears to be about 15 minutes at most.
The rack listed is 2.5 sets cams, 1 set of nuts, 1 set of big dudes, 2 each lost arrows, beaks, and long blades, and helmet recommended.
Descent is approxiamately 6 hours with nine rappels on one feature and four more to the deck on another feature. It is listed as grade V and the free at 5.11 with just 60 feet of aid, or two piton placements.
There is a lot of fourth class at the top of pitch 7 to the start of pitch 10 (The start of the business) that sure looks to me like it should support life(snakes) and possibly sleep/ rest. I do not know if these ledges are going to be sloping or yield some flat stuff.
I have in my possession a topo. I also am heading down there for an extended stay as soon as the rock dries up and a substantial window for climbing opens up. I would be glad to scope it for you.
I also have no idea of your intended style or ability, but last night I was looking at it as a prospective solo for me and I think the bottom should easily go in one push solo, bivi, and then a push should yield the summit at the very least in the next day. Pitch one is the lower crux at 10+ , and pitches 10 through 17 are never under 5.9, even for a short stretch.
Get back to me if you wish and I'll be glad to read the Beta (Zion Fiction)at the outdoor center and try to get what info I can while I'm in there. I decided to forgo this one on this trip mostly because I'm solo and the loose stuff seems to come down more frequently in winter(now).
There are other places that will also yield info, such as Mountain project, and another forum I frequent. Pm or E-mail me and I'll turn you on. Some of the Supertopo wall rats are well traveled and cross posting this there may get you someone who has done it. Some of the Zion authors are frequent poster there and may or may not post up.
If you intend to free it then you picked a great route. Enjoy. Oh yea, it appears to face south so it may be hot in May.
Bob


bandycoot


Feb 12, 2009, 9:16 AM
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Re: [garrettweaver] Tricks of the Trade [In reply to]
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If you're looking for people who have done a route, look up the route and PM the people who have done it! That said, I'm one of the three people who have recorded and ascent and have a lot of beta. More to come, I have to go right now.

Josh


garrettweaver


Feb 12, 2009, 9:35 AM
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Bob,

Thanks for all the great information. Seems like a great long route. I agree it will be very hot in May. I think I would probably attempt it in the fall. I haven't done any real aid climbing yet and only lead 5.10a/b trad so I will have to work up to this climb. I am moving to Saint George UT at the end of May and want to work up to Tricks of the Trade by doing shorter routes (moonlight, spaceshot, prodigal, touchstone...etc).


Garrett


garrettweaver


Feb 12, 2009, 9:38 AM
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Josh,

I have a quick question about the aid. Is is all clean or is it a good idea to bring a hammer and a few pins? Also, have you done any other routes in Zion? If so, what routes would be good to do before Tricks of the Trade besides (spaceshot, prodigal sun, moonlight and touchstone).

Thank you,

Garrett


bandycoot


Feb 12, 2009, 11:21 AM
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DO NOT BRING A HAMMER. If it has gone clean at a lowly C2, it's pretty damn weak to even consider bringing a hammer. My friend aided the pitch with no problems with some thin gear. I have done no other routes in Zion. I've done walls in Yosemite. This isn't like your normal wall in that it is mostly free. We freed the whole thing except a couple of swings and 60' of aid. Be good at wide stuff including what I thought was about 5.8-5.9X. More to come.

Josh


(This post was edited by bandycoot on Feb 12, 2009, 11:21 AM)


garrettweaver


Feb 12, 2009, 12:10 PM
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Josh,

Sounds like a hammer and pins are out of the question. When you say thin stuff are there any speciality pieces in particular that are necessary (ballnutz,peenuts,BD micro nuts,smallest tcu/aliens). As for the wide stuff is it more chimneys or offwidths).

Thanks,

Garrett


bandycoot


Feb 12, 2009, 12:44 PM
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I don't remember exactly what we had at the time for the thin crack. At least HB offset nuts and offset aliens, maybe ballnuts. They are old pin scars that you're aiding up. There are chimney's and offwidths. I remember that my offwidth guru friend failed on one of the pitches, and I managed to lead it clean by applying some good old fashioned committing liebacking. The "Santa Clause Chimney" is harder than 5.7, I pretty much didn't get a single piece of gear in the pitch til it was almost done, despite having up to a #5 camalot on me, and you're over a ledge. I'd call this pitch 5.8/5.9 X easily. It's a squeeze out a bombay chimney. No holds, just friction. I looked at it and thought, "Well, if I don't lead this we might not go to the top" and went for it. Rather committing but I found it rather secure with a good chicken wing the whole way. More to come.

Josh

PS. John Middendorf is full of shit. There is no 800' handcrack out an overhanging headwall as advertised in 50 Favorite Climbs of NA. They took a shot of him on the short continuous handcrack section at the top of the headwall and hyped the climb up. There is probably 300' of good handcrack on the route.


garrettweaver


Feb 12, 2009, 3:41 PM
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Josh,

You mentioned HB offets and alien offsets. Have you tried dmm offset nuts and/or metlouis offset cams and if so what do you think?

Garrett


bandycoot


Feb 12, 2009, 4:01 PM
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I have tried the DMM offset nuts. They set so well that they all ended up fixed. I'm sure they would work well enough. Haven't tried the Metolius offsets, but I'm sure they work great as well. Outside of some alien offsets for aid (which I almost never use) I use Metolius TCSs almost exclusively in the small sizes and love em. At the worst, give it a try and report back. I'd be really surprised if it didn't work. More later...

Josh


flamer


Feb 12, 2009, 5:05 PM
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garrettweaver wrote:
I agree it will be very hot in May. I think I would probably attempt it in the fall.


You won't be trying it this spring ebcause it is closed for raptors.

This is a fall only route.

Also you(and Mr. xtreme) should check Mtn. project...your questions are answered in the database there.....

josh


garrettweaver


Feb 12, 2009, 8:05 PM
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Flamer,

Thanks for the heads up on the raptor closure. What are some good spring (non-raptor closure) routes in zion?

Garrett


Partner xtrmecat


Feb 13, 2009, 8:49 AM
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Also you(and Mr. xtreme) should check Mtn. project...your questions are answered in the database there..

Contrary to your belief there is not that much on Mtn. Project. The answers I have for my questions have come from another source, mostly people who have been on the routes that I seek, in the last year or two at most. Some of the Mtn Project stuff is inaccurate or old.
Bob


bandycoot


Feb 13, 2009, 9:27 AM
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garrettweaver wrote:
Hoping to climb Tricks of the Trade in Zion in the next year or two. Just seeing if anyone has climbed the route before and wanted to share important information like : rack needed, time needed (# of pitches), portaledge required or not (is there bivy ledges) and approach hike.

The rack is large, we had triples of a lot of medium and small cams, but went light in the large cams since we were comfortable on those size cracks. Maybe one #5 (old) Camalot and one or two #4.5 (old style) Camalots. The 50 Favorites recommend 3 of each. If you're aiding these sections, you'll obviously need more. Time needed is up to you. It's a time consuming climb. You should know how long you'll take on it before you start from experience if you're going after a route of that size. I recommend fixing some pitches off the mid-way ledge for the next day. It's a long way to the top.... The approach wasn't too bad, and I had the haul bag. Don't remember details, but it's no Half Dome appraoch! There is an ENORMOUS ledge system halfway up the route for sleeping on. We were untied and hiking around on it. There were at least two great flat dirt dug out bivy spots. Bring webbing to replace potentially bad anchors.

Josh


flamer


Feb 13, 2009, 9:59 AM
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xtrmecat wrote:
Also you(and Mr. xtreme) should check Mtn. project...your questions are answered in the database there..

Contrary to your belief there is not that much on Mtn. Project. The answers I have for my questions have come from another source, mostly people who have been on the routes that I seek, in the last year or two at most. Some of the Mtn Project stuff is inaccurate or old.
Bob


So even though it clearly states on the mountain project site that the route has gone CLEAN since 1998, you suggest bringing pitons? brilliant.

Everything that has been said here has also been said on the Mtn. project page....plus there are links to 2 seprate trip reports, which you can glean plenty of knowledge from.

Mr. "xtreme" I think maybe you just don't know how to disseminate information.

josh


flamer


Feb 13, 2009, 10:01 AM
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bandycoot wrote:
[ The approach wasn't too bad, and I had the haul bag.


...was it a no big deal 15 minutes?

Hey Bro!
It's been to long...I'll in Vegas for the month of March come on out let's climb something!

josh


bandycoot


Feb 13, 2009, 10:09 AM
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It was no big deal as in a little over an hour, I think. I definitely want to climb something! I'll send you a PM!

Josh


Partner xtrmecat


Feb 14, 2009, 8:43 AM
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Hey dipshit, Clean does include hand placed gear of any sort. You sure seem to want to slug it out, and sling mud, by be disrespectful. I mearly repeated the beta I had on hand for a route I decided not to do. You seem to want to chastise me for criticizing some information that was outdated on another site.
Allow me to bow down to you Oh Great Knower Of All.
Bob


flamer


Feb 14, 2009, 4:11 PM
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xtrmecat wrote:
Hey dipshit, Clean does include hand placed gear of any sort. You sure seem to want to slug it out, and sling mud, by be disrespectful. I mearly repeated the beta I had on hand for a route I decided not to do. You seem to want to chastise me for criticizing some information that was outdated on another site.
Allow me to bow down to you Oh Great Knower Of All.
Bob

Dipshit really?

If you read all of the beta on mountainproject you would see that hand placed pins were NOT used by ANY of the parties. But that info is outdated huh?

Also didn't you say the approach was NBD...maybe 15 minutes?
Looks like you were WRONG on that one as well.

You should do better research before opening your mouth and acting like you know what's going on...because you very clearly DO NOT.

In fact it's not even hard research! The easiest beta site around had all of the up to date info on it....seems like maybe you are the dipshit.

You also state that your beta came from folks who had done the route....I think maybe they were messing with you... captain Extreme....you seem an easy target.

Also....I saw the oft used quote that you are using for your signature....and I wondered how you could possibly leave the G out of Hemingway's name?

Then I realised that you are a classic internet spray lord......who is clearly lacking in the intelligence department.
Also you added an M......

Big kiss knucklehead.

josh


flamer


Feb 14, 2009, 4:17 PM
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garrettweaver wrote:
Flamer,

Thanks for the heads up on the raptor closure. What are some good spring (non-raptor closure) routes in zion?

Garrett

Garrett,

If you haven't been to Zion before and want to do a "wall" route, a good first route would be Touchstone.
Very little aid(and very easy), very short, and very straight forward.
I'd suggest not hauling on the route. If you can't do it in a day try the fix and fire method. The aid is in the first 2 1/2 pitchs or so(unless you can free 5.13).

Next up I'd do Spaceshot.

Then Lowe /Weiss on Moonlight

Then if that all went well maybe Lunar.....

I missed Prodigal in there somewhere because it is occasionally closed for birds as well....check at the Ranger station.

Have fun.

josh


garrettweaver


Feb 15, 2009, 6:01 AM
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Flamer,

Thank you for the information.


Garrett


Partner xtrmecat


Feb 16, 2009, 6:08 AM
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Bandycoot/Garrett. Let me know if there is anything you need Beta wise and I'll be glad to put you in touch with people who know.(e-mail best) Sorry your thread got hijacked.

Diphshit Josh. You clearly have a low reading comprehension level so I'll use simple sentences with small words so you can follow along. The info he was asking for is all I gave him. I had no reason to give him what you see as the last word in Zion Walls off of Mountain Project. By the way some of the information there is valid and current, but it is by no means the definitive, oops big word(sorry), last word in what is what there. I merely stated what I had in front of me and was willing to put him in touch with other forums and people who do not cruise this site or rarely Mtn. Project. The reason they do not is obvious to most, and vague to some others, but RC.noob has a reputation for people giving bad advice and thumping the chests from high on the hill as knowing what is the right way!
Sorry to let you down but I have seen that your tactics of never offering advice, just laying in the shadows and finding what you consider a victim to say something that you know more than, and then spring your infinite wisdom on him and all that will listen.(your name also gives a hint as to your methods,hint hint) I would like to suggest a softer gentler approach to life if I may and just try to help people because you can, not because you feel a need to let everyone know you are of superior intelect, (oops did it again didnt I?) a smarter better MOFO.
One moderator of another forum put it this way, "There is too much Static to Noise ratio on RC.noob for me", ( or something very close) and he is talking of people like you, who just know it all. We bow down to you and your bigger brain. Actually we chose to just take our conversation elsewhere and not invite you. I have very recently gotten lots of beta on routes for my Zion trip and route maps that are as current as the Zion Fiction or newer, from real climbers who have been on route recently. Yea I know, not on the one route here but hey I wasn't climbing this one this year anyhow. One of the route fathers in question has rcently tried posting here and it was sad to see his advice just blown off and shoved to the side, as it was offered freely, politely, and for a good reason, just to be dismissed. And some cannot figure out why, I'm sure.
There are reasons that the routes in Zion are deteriating as fast as they are, as some of the so called aid trade routes are now free and need to be freed when possible with as little aid as possible, as the routes are getting gumby'd to death and the sandstone is not holding up to the repeated body weight on placements. (My repeating of the words of two of the better known Zion route authors, not just my opinion) In case you didn't know it is a very finite resource.(I'm going to make you look that one up) So if you would just grow up and shut up until you really know something the Zion routes and other real climbers would appreciate(like) it.
Oh, and by the way the other forums, and resources are not hard to find either, I just wouldn't walk in there with your disrespectful attitude, as they talk about climbing because they love it, and it is their life, and have no room for arrogant assholes who want to tell the whole world what is what. Speaking of respect, I'm going to be out climbing for three weeks and would love the opportunity to show you what respect is, as your parents obviously didn't( or couldn't), so responding will just be you beating your own drum and stroking you own ego for the world to see. I am not visiting RC.com while out of town.
Bob

Oh yea, grow up.

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