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Hennessey
Feb 18, 2009, 1:40 AM
Post #76 of 149
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graniteboy wrote: All I have to say on this matter is This: Even though there is no excuse for a climbing gym to have a 16 year old kid "teaching" you, and he dropped you, BY SUING< YOU ARE RAISING THE INSURANCE RATES ON ALL CLIMBING GYMS EVERYWHERE. Especially considering the fact that you were not really hurt. SO: thanks alot, Dou$hwad , because if you sue, every one of us who ever climbs in a gym has to pay for increased insurance rates for climbing gyms in general because of your greedy little ass beng all butthurt about what amounts to the distance of a good bouldering fall. The best solution is for you to quit climbing, because we don't want people like you in the climbing community anyway. Just go away. Now.
Next thing you know he'll be trying to sue the Access Fund for purchasing the local crag that he gets hurt at next
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extreme_actuary
Feb 18, 2009, 1:58 AM
Post #77 of 149
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Registered: Jan 26, 2006
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How could you justify an instructor dropping a client on toprope by saying it is a dangerous sport?
First of all, I know this forum is full of extreme gym climbers, but since when did gym climbing become a dangerous sport? Actually, I can't think of a safer sport.
I personally don't have a problem with the victim suing the gym. If a gym goes out of business because it doesn't stress safety and train their staff properly, it's a good thing.
Everytime there is a serious accident at a gym, it creates a negative perception of the sport as a whole, and will eventually lead to worse things. It could lead to higher insurance rates for all gyms, higher health/life insurance rates for climbers, maybe even closures of real outdoor climbing areas on private lands.
Basically, if the gym owner is so carefree that he lets untrained staff belay and instruct people, I don't think he deserves to be in business. We don't need any more accidents in this sport.
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kletter1mann
Feb 18, 2009, 2:04 AM
Post #78 of 149
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Wunderkind wrote: I think he's talking about sueing the gym, not the kid who dropped him. I'm not a lawyer, but if you're running any small (or large) business, you have liability for the screwups of your employees that put customers in danger.
Maybe yes, maybe no. Any "well written" waiver will also exonerate the gym for any errors by its employees or even equipment failures (like getting your head smashed in by a falling hold). This is absolutely standard. If the waiver didn't have something like this then their waiver was as poorly written as the gym is poorly managed. "Well written" of course means well written to protect the gym.
As for the guy getting dropped, get a refund and have the kid fired. And do NOT climb there anymore. If that's how they roll, you don't want to be there.
As for suing, what exactly are you going to sue for? Even if you did sprain your ankle you're going to need to find a lawyer that can demonstrate that you suffered some kind of damages AND that they are damages were outside the scope of the waiver. Good luck.
-Dave
http://www.climbrockclub.com
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sdonis
Feb 18, 2009, 2:13 AM
Post #79 of 149
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Registered: Nov 18, 2008
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dannyd wrote: I booked time on the wall with an instuctor and my g/f on valentines day. We are new to rock climbing and wanted an experienced person with us ensuring eveything is done properly, ( additional price ) On the last wall, 12-15 feet from the floor, the instructor said the rope got tangled and it slipped through his hands, thus causing me to fall direcly on my ankle. What course of action would you guys take? No compensation was offered. No broken bones, just swelling and sore
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newclimbing08
Feb 18, 2009, 2:28 AM
Post #80 of 149
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Hmm…I wouldn’t sue. But you should be upset and contact the owner of the gym. By signing that wavier you were under the impression that you would be provided a competent instructor. When they took your money to teach you the basics of climbing, the instructor is responsible for your well being to a certain degree. Dropping you is not acceptable. Just think about what you want to accomplish.
It seems you want the employee to be reprimanded (probably needs to be fired) and I would say some gym passes at the very least. This could be done without taking this to court. I would base further legal actions on the reaction of the gym owner.
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landongw
Feb 18, 2009, 5:13 AM
Post #81 of 149
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dannyd wrote: If going to court forces the gym owner to hire more competent instructors, then it is worth it. Lawyers are expensive and I am hesitant that I will be wasting my money for nothing to change.
The only thing suing will make him do is buy gri gris and lock them onto all of the ropes in the gym. That way, no one will be able to learn to belay with an actual belay device in your gym again. :) I think this is a great idea.
You win: You get a pastuerized climbing experience with almost no risk.
Even more importantly, I win: Less people learn how to climb in a realistic environment, keeping them forever confined to the safe womb of their gym. Thus, I have fewer nubile idiots to dodge in the mountains.
I vote for suing the gym :)
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sdonis
Feb 18, 2009, 5:18 AM
Post #82 of 149
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landongw wrote: dannyd wrote: If going to court forces the gym owner to hire more competent instructors, then it is worth it. Lawyers are expensive and I am hesitant that I will be wasting my money for nothing to change. The only thing suing will make him do is buy gri gris and lock them onto all of the ropes in the gym. That way, no one will be able to learn to belay with an actual belay device in your gym again. :) I think this is a great idea. You win: You get a pastuerized climbing experience with almost no risk. Even more importantly, I win: Less people learn how to climb in a realistic environment, keeping them forever confined to the safe womb of their gym. Thus, I have fewer nubile idiots to dodge in the mountains. I vote for suing the gym :)
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clews
Feb 18, 2009, 6:27 AM
Post #83 of 149
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Registered: Nov 10, 2008
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I work at a climbing gym and i belay a lot on a daily basis. Because of this, i have had the rope get tangled on me several times and in no circumstance have I ever came close to dropping my climber.
Seeing as you weren't seriously hurt, i wouldn't recommend a lawsuit, it probably won't go far
I would without a doubt talk to the owner and explain that you paid for a competent belayer and you obviously didn't get that so you should get your money refunded.
Secondly I think that kid needs to get canned. He wasn't paying attention, and he was obviously not belaying properly seeing as his brake hand came off the rope which is a never ever ever do. (ask the owner him what he would do if the kid dropped you from 40 feet up)
The last thing I would do is learn how to belay safely. (not from that gym). Take a climbing class from a gym with more competent employees. The sad thing is, is there are far too many gyms who do not teach proper belay skills.
Once you have good belay skills, you'll be able to climb and not worry about piss poor gym instructors.
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d0nk3yk0n9
Feb 18, 2009, 12:09 PM
Post #84 of 149
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I work at a camp over the summer, doing quite a bit of belaying for our climbing tower. We have this one guy on staff who has made a few mistakes while belaying. Every time he does, he is reprimanded and told "Don't let us catch you belaying anyone else until you figure out how to do it properly and show us that you know how again." Essentially, we make him retake an informal belay test every time he screws up. In other words, I don't think that the kid should necessarily be fired just because he screwed up once. However, you should definitely tell the gym owner what happened, because, if it is a pattern, the kid should be fired for sure.
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jamincan
Feb 18, 2009, 12:59 PM
Post #85 of 149
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landongw wrote: The only thing suing will make him do is buy gri gris and lock them onto all of the ropes in the gym. That way, no one will be able to learn to belay with an actual belay device in your gym again. :) I think this is a great idea. You win: You get a pastuerized climbing experience with almost no risk. Even more importantly, I win: Less people learn how to climb in a realistic environment, keeping them forever confined to the safe womb of their gym. Thus, I have fewer nubile idiots to dodge in the mountains. I vote for suing the gym :)
If you have ever climbed at a crag like Rattlesnake Point, you'll know that it doesn't work like that. They still go outside and belay (usually with an ATC because that's what comes with the harness and shoes package) just like they were taught at the gym, which, 9 times out of 10 means the device is never locked off because they use the grigri method where the brake hand never locks off.
I can understand a gym wanting to use grigris for safety reasons; however, I really dislike the practice of anchoring the grigri to the floor because it encourages people to belay without locking off the brake end of the rope. That's normally fine with a grigri, but it translates poorly to ATC-style devices.
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altelis
Feb 18, 2009, 1:06 PM
Post #86 of 149
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landongw wrote: (snip)
You win: You get a pastuerized climbing experience with almost no risk. (snip)
i don't understand this. i appreciate the risk while climbing outside- there are tangeable "benefits" to this.
but inside, really? you want to go somewhere, boulder/sport/top-rope really as practice (unless your simply a gym rat, then god help your soul) for the "real thing", PAY to do this none-the-less and have risk?
should the gym owners randomly elmer's glue a couple of bolt hangers on the wall? that way you don't know which will hold and which will fail miserably?
granted thats a little on the extreme side, but i think it still illustrates the point. unless you are a gym rat (see above) the gym really serves as a "simulator" when life dictates you cant get the real thing. why would you want/need risk in that environment?
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shockabuku
Feb 18, 2009, 1:26 PM
Post #87 of 149
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You should have asked for a refund. If you got dropped on top rope you probably weren't being instructed by an experienced/knowledgeable/responsible professional and you got ripped off. Or ask for another session with a more qualified instructor.
Climbing is dangerous, but getting dropped on TR, in a gym, is damn near inexcusable.
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cantbuymefriends
Feb 18, 2009, 1:29 PM
Post #89 of 149
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Posts: 670
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rockandlice wrote: Okay, I'm done being nice. After your last comment, it is clear you are a complete jerk. Do us all a favor and NEVER climb again. You are clearly not cut out for this sport.
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 18, 2009, 1:32 PM
Post #90 of 149
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I am curious after 4 pages of posts what dannyd proposes to do about this. We can go back and forth all day, but I want to know exactly what is being done about it. To sum everything up, here's what us internet jockeys have said:
1. Although you COULD sue, most, if not all of us feel a lawsuit would be frivolous and might do more harm than good. We are, after all, just talking about a sprainged ankle.
2. ALthough gyms have waivers stating that they are not responsible, any court would dismiss it if it was found the gym was grossly negligent.
3. The belayer's age is not as much of a concern as his lack of knowledge and experience.
4. Confronting the gym in some manner seems to be the best course of action. I like rgold's suggestion of writing a letter. This way the manager has time to process all of the information without being defensive by feeling like he's being attacked.
5. The "inherent risk of climbing" does not apply in this situation. He was paying for instruction inside on toprope. If the danger can't be eliminated here, then we have a problem.
6. The belayer should not be instructing, much less belaying. If the manager does not want to fire him, then I am sure there are some toilets that need cleaning.
7. dannyd should receive some sort of compensation as a sign of good will from the gym. That's just good business.
So, dannyd, what is being done about this?
Josh
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cantbuymefriends
Feb 18, 2009, 1:38 PM
Post #91 of 149
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rockandlice wrote: I really don't think this sport is for you. However, if you do choose to continue on in the sport, make damn well sure you warn every belayer you ever have that you will try to sue them if they ever drop you.
Just the ones charging him money for pretending to supply a competent and safe belay...
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Hotpies
Feb 18, 2009, 1:43 PM
Post #92 of 149
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Registered: Apr 24, 2008
Posts: 57
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I change my vote! SUE!! Sue the shit out of that place. Sue them for a loss of your manhood, being embarrassed in front of your girlfriend, a sore ankle, general annoyance, whatever you can think of.
Once you have the money, buy a DeLorean, a flux capacitor, and a Mr. Fusion (It's better for the Earth than plutonium). Then go back in time, hurt yourself again (it's just a sore ankle), repeat, and profit.
Edited to add: Make sure your profits exceed the losses incurred by the series of 88mph speeding tickets you will likely receive.
(This post was edited by Hotpies on Feb 18, 2009, 3:11 PM)
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shockabuku
Feb 18, 2009, 1:45 PM
Post #93 of 149
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Registered: May 20, 2006
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d0nk3yk0n9 wrote: I work at a camp over the summer, doing quite a bit of belaying for our climbing tower. We have this one guy on staff who has made a few mistakes while belaying. Every time he does, he is reprimanded and told "Don't let us catch you belaying anyone else until you figure out how to do it properly and show us that you know how again." Essentially, we make him retake an informal belay test every time he screws up. In other words, I don't think that the kid should necessarily be fired just because he screwed up once. However, you should definitely tell the gym owner what happened, because, if it is a pattern, the kid should be fired for sure.
Oh, the ironing.
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cantbuymefriends
Feb 18, 2009, 1:46 PM
Post #94 of 149
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d0nk3yk0n9 wrote: I work at a camp over the summer, doing quite a bit of belaying for our climbing tower. We have this one guy on staff who has made a few mistakes while belaying. Every time he does, he is reprimanded and told "Don't let us catch you belaying anyone else until you figure out how to do it properly and show us that you know how again." Essentially, we make him retake an informal belay test every time he screws up. In other words, I don't think that the kid should necessarily be fired just because he screwed up once. However, you should definitely tell the gym owner what happened, because, if it is a pattern, the kid should be fired for sure. 
HOW MANY TIMES did you say that you have checked out that he has "figured it out properly"?? And he STILL doesn't get it?
How many times before you think it's proper to put him on other dutys? 3? 5? 10?
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tomcat
Feb 18, 2009, 1:50 PM
Post #95 of 149
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Registered: Sep 15, 2006
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I'm having a hard time envisioning a sixteen year old instructor.Non-sequitor?
You may find this remarkable,but scores of climbers learned to climb and belay without injury,just by watching or reading a book or two,back when a book or two was all there were.
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clausti
Feb 18, 2009, 1:56 PM
Post #96 of 149
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tomcat wrote: You may find this remarkable,but scores of climbers learned to climb and belay without injury,just by watching or reading a book or two,back when a book or two was all there were.
well a toprope belay is surely not rocket science. but you DO have to be paying attention.
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j_ung
Feb 18, 2009, 2:10 PM
Post #97 of 149
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I think I fall somewhere in the middle of sue them and just don't climb there again. I doubt I would sue, since you don't really have any medical expenses, but I'd certainly put the incident in writing and send it to the gym management certified. I'd probably also try to talk to them face to face about training their employees better.
I haven't read the whole thread. Apologies if this has been said.
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shockabuku
Feb 18, 2009, 2:12 PM
Post #98 of 149
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Come visit. I've got a sixteen year old who can teach you a few things. Mostly just that you're old and weak, but, well...she can certainly teach a new climber to belay just fine.
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j_ung
Feb 18, 2009, 2:13 PM
Post #99 of 149
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d0nk3yk0n9 wrote: I work at a camp over the summer, doing quite a bit of belaying for our climbing tower. We have this one guy on staff who has made a few mistakes while belaying. Every time he does, he is reprimanded and told "Don't let us catch you belaying anyone else until you figure out how to do it properly and show us that you know how again." Essentially, we make him retake an informal belay test every time he screws up. In other words, I don't think that the kid should necessarily be fired just because he screwed up once. However, you should definitely tell the gym owner what happened, because, if it is a pattern, the kid should be fired for sure.
How many times constitute a pattern?
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bozher
Feb 18, 2009, 3:10 PM
Post #100 of 149
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dannyd wrote: is a lawsuit out of the question? This was directly a result of the 16 year old instructor socializing and not paying full attention
So you couldn't make a judgement as to stop climbing with this individual? Are you looking for a payday like everyone else? It is up to us climbers to take resposibility for our own personal safety. If we start looking for someone to pay for our injuries our sport will be viewed much differently and this action will ruin it for us all. Didn't you have the balls to tell this person to pay attention?! Or even to refuse to stop letting him belay you? Start acting like a grown up and take responsibility for you own actions!
If you are angry with the gym that is understandable. It would be acceptable in my opinion to speak with the owner and have this idiot fired. That would be an action that would protect other people. Suing would not.
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