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brendeneng


Feb 26, 2009, 5:42 AM
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Aid Climbing Gear
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I'm just getting into aid climbing, asides from my trad rack I just got two pairs of Yates big wall ladders. Do you just use a regular sized carabiner to connect the pair together? What do you use and where/when do you connect the daisy chain? I also have read that often 40+ free carabiners are needed for an aid climb, is it common to use ovals, and in that scenario should I swap my hotwires my gear is racked on for ovals?


johnwesely


Feb 26, 2009, 6:11 AM
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Re: [brendeneng] Aid Climbing Gear [In reply to]
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read John Long's Big Walls book or similar.


coastal_climber


Feb 26, 2009, 9:56 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Aid Climbing Gear [In reply to]
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These are what I have for my aiders: http://www.mec.ca/...;bmUID=1235670912819

I use quick draws to clip the rope to my pieces instead of just ovals, but to each their own.


moof


Feb 26, 2009, 1:15 PM
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Re: [brendeneng] Aid Climbing Gear [In reply to]
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A strong second for using a keylock style for your lead biner. It's less prone to snagging while unclipping from bolt hangers, nuts, etc. I use Petzl Spirit bent gates because that's what I had spare, the owall's from Petzl would be better I think.

Avoid ovals in general, go for lighter full size wiregate biners instead. If you don't mine the mini ones that are all the rage, do that, but expect hassles at belay stations where biners end up with lots of crap clipped to them. Also avoid trying to keep different biners for different purposes (other than your 2 lead biners and lockers), they all just get mixed up no matter what.


tomtom


Feb 26, 2009, 4:31 PM
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Re: [moof] Aid Climbing Gear [In reply to]
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I use a Petzl Big William Screwgate to connect my daisy to my ladder. I find the large size easier to manipulate.

YMMV.


ptrendler


Feb 26, 2009, 5:06 PM
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i would say the main advantage of an oval biner while your aid climbing, compared to a more asymmetrical biner is that as you weight it, there is less of a chance that the carabiner will shift. not a super big deal, but on those precarious placements where you don't want your pro to shift at all, an oval will stay pretty balanced


coastal_climber


Feb 26, 2009, 9:21 PM
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Yup, biner shift scares the fuck outta me Tongue


moof


Feb 26, 2009, 9:22 PM
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Regarding free biners...

It very much depends on your style. If you rack a lot of your cams one per biner, you'll need lots more free biners (duh). If it's a nailing route you'll likely be racking several pins per biners, and of course you'll want tie off and free biners.

I usually run with only a dozen or so free biners (all C2 kind of stuff for me). Don't get me wrong, I start with 40-50+, but after a pitch or two most just sort of get consumed god knows where. I need a few for the anchor, and a few for fixed pins, and a few for aliens that don't need draws/slings.

Don't underestimate how many lockers you'll want. A half dozen can easily get sucked into an anchor, and leave you wanting more. Another pile get used up in rigging the haul bags, and by your partner for jugging backups and so on. Starting a wall with less than about 20 is a bad idea, in my opinion.

Daisy to aider connection...

I use a 2 aider system, so I have one aider per daisy, both on one keylock biner, problem solved.

You can also use a second biner from the daisy into the top point of your aider. If you take a daisy fall it'll destroy your aiders, but people use this scheme plenty often. If you use adjustable daisies you'll either need to also use a fifi, or you'll be hating life with the extra 3 inches the biner adds to the system.

You can use no daisy at all, just using a fifi and draw and needed (see Clean Climbing with Ron Olevsky).

Other variations abound.


kevinhansen


Mar 1, 2009, 8:32 PM
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Re: [moof] Aid Climbing Gear [In reply to]
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moof wrote:
Regarding free biners...

I use a 2 aider system, so I have one aider per daisy, both on one keylock biner, problem solved.

Other variations abound.

And the winner of the lightest OVAL biner goest to?
(Drum roll.......)
The first runner up and the least expensive goest to BLACK DIAMONDS OVAL WIRE!! weighing in at 1.6 oz.
and the winner of the lightest oval on the market goes to OMEGA PACIFIC'S DOVAL!!! weighing in at 1.3 oz.
{Please if you know of a lighter oval. prove me wrong.}
Now I know what yer thinking. Is 0.3 oz's worth shelling out an extra $1-2? Let me tell you,,, uh,,, maybe? How often do you replace biners? I still have/use biners I bought in the mid 90's. SHOOT I've been through 8 cars since then! You'd be digging the extra lightness long after your credit card is paid off.
Dirt bag option?
Only have an oval where it matters, and thats on yer aiders. Everything else gets the Camp Nano's. Yum to the 1 oz, goodness of a lighter rack. Sport, alipine, Ice, aid, and trad they do it all.

moof wrote:
You can use no daisy at all, just using a fifi and draw and needed (see Clean Climbing with Ron Olevsky)..

True, and Ron O has been climbing much longer than me. But what happens when you drop yer aider cus there's nothing holden her to ya? Yea, I learned that lesson the hard way. BUT it teaches yerself not to just let go of stuff.

Stay tuned after the break when we award the lightest locking biner.

Kevin


moof


Mar 1, 2009, 8:48 PM
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Re: [kevinhansen] Aid Climbing Gear [In reply to]
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Black diamond ovals are excellent in small quantities for walling, particularly for racking. You can get a whole set of nuts on one, or 4-5 aliens, or 3 regular cams without it getting crowded. Crowded biners lead to dropped gear while frigging.

In my opinion biner shift is just not worth worrying about, sack up. A rack of light biners keeps the loads manageable. Be careful of a rack of tiny biners can be a double edged sword, as it it's pretty common at belay and bivies to be clipping a lot of crap per biner. The best aid biner is the one you have. But when filling out the rack beyond that, get light near full sized wiregates as much as you can.

Also, if you have some keylock biners mixed into your draws you can do your partner a favor by using them on traversing fixed gear (heads, bolts, pins). It's a lot easier to unclip keylocks when using body english to momentarily un-tension the piece to unclip, as they don't snag to the same degree.


moose_droppings


Mar 1, 2009, 9:19 PM
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Re: [kevinhansen] Aid Climbing Gear [In reply to]
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kevinhansen wrote:
and the winner of the lightest oval on the market goes to OMEGA PACIFIC'S DOVAL!!! weighing in at 1.3 oz.

Oval=doval??

In reply to:
{Please if you know of a lighter oval. prove me wrong.}

Aren't dovals part d shaped?
Following your reasoning then;
doval=d shaped?

Then;
oval = doval=d shaped

All being equal then;
oval=d shaped

There are a lot of d shaped biners lighter than 1.3oz.

LaughCrazyLaugh


acorneau


Mar 2, 2009, 5:44 AM
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moose_droppings wrote:
Aren't dovals part d shaped?

Both Dovals and BD ovals have a slight D-shape:





moose_droppings


Mar 2, 2009, 9:04 AM
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yep,
ddddddoval

Wink


coastal_climber


Mar 2, 2009, 9:19 AM
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I've got some of those OP Dovals, when the light hits them right it looks like your ropes going though a biner with no gate. Tongue


summerprophet


Mar 2, 2009, 12:22 PM
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Re: [brendeneng] Aid Climbing Gear [In reply to]
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brendeneng wrote:
I'm just getting into aid climbing, asides from my trad rack I just got two pairs of Yates big wall ladders. Do you just use a regular sized carabiner to connect the pair together?
Yes, a regular oval biner to connect your daisy and the pair of aiders, a locker if you are uber-paranoid.
brendeneng wrote:
What do you use and where/when do you connect the daisy chain? ?
Assuming standard length daisies, if you are less than 5'11" girth the daisies through your harness and join the other end to your jugs or aiders. If taller (like me) I use a locker in the belay loop and lock it down BIG TIME. the goal here is to not have your reach longer than your daisies will go. It will be really frustrating when you can't reach the next placement to clip with the daisy. Apparently, longer daisies are available these days..... might look into them when mine need to be tossed.
brendeneng wrote:
I also have read that often 40+ free carabiners are needed for an aid climb, is it common to use ovals, and in that scenario should I swap my hotwires my gear is racked on for ovals?
Yes, loads of biners required. Ovals very common (search biner shift) Leave your draws as they are, learning to backclean is a valuble skill to save biners... and gear.... and ropedrag..... and make the seconds job easier or harder, depending on how much they pissed you off on the last pitch.


jeremy11


Mar 2, 2009, 5:55 PM
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Re: [ptrendler] Aid Climbing Gear [In reply to]
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ptrendler wrote:
i would say the main advantage of an oval biner while your aid climbing, compared to a more asymmetrical biner is that as you weight it, there is less of a chance that the carabiner will shift. not a super big deal, but on those precarious placements where you don't want your pro to shift at all, an oval will stay pretty balanced

ovals only matter if you clip more than one thing into the biner on the placement, so since I use a 2 aider system, where there are two biners connected to the biner on the placement, I use ovals when possible. if you are using a 4 aider system it shouldn't be a problem.
If you do get ovals, get BD Ovalwires as they are lighter and have much better gate clearance.


salamanizer


Mar 2, 2009, 6:57 PM
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Re: [brendeneng] Aid Climbing Gear [In reply to]
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This is hands down the best biner for attaching your aiders to your dasies when leading.

http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=583

A keylock notchless head is super important as cleaning the biner from a clusterfukk is nearly un-avoidable and nearly impossible when there's a notch.

An oval (not Doval or other such "D" shaped oval) is important in reducing the chances of biner shift, which can make or break a placement. Also, things rack better and are less likely to get loaded under something else. Nothing like needing that Talon hook and realising it's shifted it's way under where you clipped into your last placement and you're standing on it.

A locker is important, not so much when you're leading, but when you're jugging. Having the locking oval on your dasies makes changing over from lead to follow a quicker process. You just clip your jumars in, lock em down and you're off.
Also, when you reach the anchor (if it's bolts) you just clip in and you're off. No fukking around wasting time, you're able to fix the lead line and set up for the haul immediately. When seconding, as soon as the ropes fixed, you're clipped in (one jumar on the fixed line, one dasie clipped to a bolt) with your dasies, the anchor is already cleaned by the time your leaders ready for the pig to fly. As soon as it's gone you're jugging.


(This post was edited by salamanizer on Mar 2, 2009, 7:04 PM)


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