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irw13
Mar 5, 2009, 12:39 AM
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I'm looking at anchoring (with webbing) at a well-established climbing area with two permanent bolts at the top of each climb. Self-equalizing seems the easiest, but I'm concerned about the force that may be imparted on the remaining bolt if the other lets go. Is there a way to back this up or should I just tie off an overhand on a bight/ bowline on a bight and equalize manually?
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patmay81
Mar 5, 2009, 12:47 AM
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if its well established the bolts should be in good condition. just use a couple of sport draws and call it good. remember gates face opposite directions at the rope end, or use lockers.
to answer your question, if you tie an over hand in each leg of your anchor it will still self equalize, but you limit extension (depending on where you tie the knots).
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colatownkid
Mar 5, 2009, 12:50 AM
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irw13 wrote: I'm looking at anchoring (with webbing) at a well-established climbing area with two permanent bolts at the top of each climb. Self-equalizing seems the easiest, but I'm concerned about the force that may be imparted on the remaining bolt if the other lets go. Is there a way to back this up or should I just tie off an overhand on a bight/ bowline on a bight and equalize manually?
i'm fairly certain you're suggesting using a sliding x and are considered about the possibility of shock loading. a search on those terms should bring up a bunch of results.
personally, i'm fine with a sliding x on two bolts. if you're worried about shock loading and the lack of redundancy, you can always tie limiter knots (overhands on either side of the masterpoint). this will reduce the self-equalization a bit, but will add redundancy and reduce extension should a bolt fail.
as an aside: i'd be more worried about the webbing rubbing and abrading on the rock then i would be about the bolts if you're truly at an established climbing area. if that's the case, the limiter knots become pretty much mandatory. a bolt blowing is not a catastrophic failure for a standard sliding x, but the webbing cutting is.
also, could you describe what you mean by tying off with an overhand on a bight/bowline on a bight?
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colatownkid
Mar 5, 2009, 12:52 AM
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patmay81 wrote: if its well established the bolts should be in good condition. just use a couple of sport draws and call it good. remember gates face opposite directions at the rope end, or use lockers. to answer your question, if you tie an over hand in each leg of your anchor it will still self equalize, but you limit extension (depending on where you tie the knots).
that's twice now that you've beaten me to the punch.
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irw13
Mar 5, 2009, 1:48 AM
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Now that you mention it, there was something else I realized w/ the sliding x. When using opposing biners, there seems to be a fair amount of friction on the webbing, so it seems that this setup could limit the lifetime of the webbing.
As for the bowline-on-a-bight and overhand-on-a-bight tie-offs, I'd anchor the ends, attach the biners to the webbing/single-strand webbing, let them equalize and then tie off w/ one of those knots to create a doubled webbing loop for the biners to hang from. Here are the knots I'm talking about:http://www.ropeworks.biz/reader/bowbight.pdf with the overhand-on-a-bight stopping at step 4. The knot just depends on if I'm using a sling or webbing. I hope that makes sense, b/c it's hard to write it out w/o pictures.
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blueeyedclimber
Mar 5, 2009, 1:53 PM
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irw13 wrote: Now that you mention it, there was something else I realized w/ the sliding x. When using opposing biners, there seems to be a fair amount of friction on the webbing, so it seems that this setup could limit the lifetime of the webbing.
Friction from what? THe biners? THis is not a concern. If you are talking friction from the edge, then this is a concern. Pad the edge where your anchor is hanging over.
In reply to: As for the bowline-on-a-bight and overhand-on-a-bight tie-offs, I'd anchor the ends, attach the biners to the webbing/single-strand webbing, let them equalize and then tie off w/ one of those knots to create a doubled webbing loop for the biners to hang from. Here are the knots I'm talking about:http://www.ropeworks.biz/reader/bowbight.pdf with the overhand-on-a-bight stopping at step 4. The knot just depends on if I'm using a sling or webbing. I hope that makes sense, b/c it's hard to write it out w/o pictures.
I am having a hard time picturing what you are talking about. It seems to me you are making this way too complicated. A top rope anchor from two good bolts is about the simplest set up you can do. Sliding x with limiter knots (if desired), pad the edge if needed, and you're done.
Josh
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hansundfritz
Mar 5, 2009, 2:09 PM
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Read Long's Anchors book (second edition) and check out his "Quad" for this application. It is solid, redundant, equalized, and features minimal extension. It's made from a standard cordelette. You can pre-tie it and can be carried over the shoulder with the biners. Very fast and handy.
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ACJ
Mar 5, 2009, 3:19 PM
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So assuming you are toproping... sliding X isn't the appropriate anchor here.
You want the sliding X if the route wanders or has a traverse towards the end. In this situation 2 quickdraws is fine. If you are looking to build something to an institutional standard use cordage and simply equalize it with an overhand knot (make sure there are 2 loops coming out of the knot).
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lucaskrajnik
Mar 5, 2009, 3:31 PM
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I use corde to tie all my sliding x's it seems to me the easiest/safest anchor... its equalized...and if 1 bolt pops...ur still good... and no knots to un-tie, that have been weighted on..
equalized is ALWAYS the best.
(This post was edited by lucaskrajnik on Mar 5, 2009, 3:32 PM)
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fresh
Mar 5, 2009, 4:32 PM
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irw13 wrote: I'm looking at anchoring (with webbing) at a well-established climbing area with two permanent bolts at the top of each climb. Self-equalizing seems the easiest, but I'm concerned about the force that may be imparted on the remaining bolt if the other lets go. Is there a way to back this up or should I just tie off an overhand on a bight/ bowline on a bight and equalize manually?
read john long's post:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...tring=shock;#1317687
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desertwanderer81
Mar 5, 2009, 9:41 PM
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fresh wrote: irw13 wrote: I'm looking at anchoring (with webbing) at a well-established climbing area with two permanent bolts at the top of each climb. Self-equalizing seems the easiest, but I'm concerned about the force that may be imparted on the remaining bolt if the other lets go. Is there a way to back this up or should I just tie off an overhand on a bight/ bowline on a bight and equalize manually? it's worth noting that "shock-loading" isn't as big a deal as many of us thought. read john long's post: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...tring=shock;#1317687
Ha, yeah. Shock loading when TR'ing really isn't an issue....at all.......
As someone else said, either use two opposing quick-draws or clip a carabiner into the end of each chain/bolt, clip a piece of cordellete into each carabiner, magic-X the middle, 2 opposing or locking carabiners, rope, have fun!
Either way, other than coiling the rope and checking your system, if there are 2 bolts up top that are right there, it shouldn't take more than 30 seconds to set up your TR.
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ACJ
Mar 8, 2009, 8:35 PM
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lucaskrajnik wrote: I use corde to tie all my sliding x's it seems to me the easiest/safest anchor... its equalized...and if 1 bolt pops...ur still good... and no knots to un-tie, that have been weighted on.. equalized is ALWAYS the best.
ALWAYS isn't the best word to use in anchor building if you ask me. Why do people seem to be so into the sliding X? Again if you are talking about top roping and the "safest" anchor there are faults to the sliding X. With no limiter knots if these bolts magically pop out then you will shock load the cordage and the other bolt which is most likely questionable if the first one fell out.
A simple equalized BHK is redundant, and has no extension. It's also easy to untie.
Any time I come across a post that says ALWAYS do this because it's the EASIEST and SAFEST it bothers me. I just think wow there are a lot of different anchors out there and each one has strengths and weaknesses and just need to be used in the correct situation. There is no super anchor and the magic X, however useful, is not actually magic.
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lucaskrajnik
Mar 8, 2009, 9:01 PM
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well yes ur correct...but i was refering to "anchor" ALWAYS equalized...not always a sliding x..
shock loading the other bolt...well honestly i would still use a sliding x...
I would use my judgment to tell that, those are weak bolts..and i would back them up with someother type of pro-......---trad climbing isnt following instructions..like sport climbing...--rather its inventive
(This post was edited by lucaskrajnik on Mar 8, 2009, 9:04 PM)
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