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curt
Mar 18, 2009, 6:12 AM
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Thanks. I realize this isn't particularly easy for you, but it is important to try and determine exactly what went wrong.
Curt
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patto
Mar 18, 2009, 12:43 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: patto wrote: majid_sabet wrote: When a leader falls while belayer is controlling the system, each protection between belayer and the leader act as a cushion to reduce the falling forces in event of a leader fall and ultimately, the main anchor where belayer is secured, has to handle the total falling forces of both people (assuming both fall at the same time generating maximum falling forces).Generally, the belaying anchor should be rated to above 20 KN. On the other hand, if a belayer is on top and attached to an anchor and somehow he looses his anchor and falls while follower is climbing, the belayer initially puts 2X of the falling forces on the lower piece (pulley effect) and if the follower falls at the same time, both climber will generate enough forces to make the entire protections fail which may result with a serious injury or fatality . You are wrong majid. You can't go double counting forces like that. Not to mention that the fall factor is normally EXTREMELY low in such an event because of the quantity of rope out. And there is a belay device in the loop which would slip and further reduce forces. Yaa sure
Try doing the sums and explain to me a realistic situation with high fall factors. Also explain how the 'pulley' effect can work AND be compounded by the other climber falling. Your double counting your forces.
EDIT: southswell, i understand the 'pulley' effect, but as i said majid is double counting when talking about this AND the weight of the other climber
(This post was edited by patto on Mar 18, 2009, 6:06 PM)
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southswell
Mar 18, 2009, 1:04 PM
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Patto,
if a climber is hanging on a piece of pro, the actual force applied to that piece is twice what that climber weighs. One one side, you have the weight of the climber, on the other you have an equal weight applied to hold the climber. The principles are the same in a fall. If a climber falls on lead and applies say 5kN of impact force, the belay must also apply 5kN of force to stop the fall. So the top piece would have to withstand 10kN of force. Of course there are frictions involved that would probably affect the actual amount of force applied by the belayer, but the force placed on the top piece stays the same.
I know that this does not apply directly to the matter at hand, this is just one example of how forces can be multiplied on climbing protection.
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vivalargo
Mar 18, 2009, 4:40 PM
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“While I am very hesitant to reply, I would like to know what happened, for closure I guess. I was the third or fourth person on the scene. I am still puzzled by what I saw. The second was about thirty feet up, hanging on what appeared to be the second rope for the third member of the party. The rope was clipped into his haul loop, with no line attached at tie in point! The lead line was hanging near the ground with the first half of a figure 8 near to the ground, and ran through 2 or 3 pieces not far from the top of the formation where the other end appeared to still be. Nothing appeared to be attached to the deceased. Too many unknowns to make conclusions, and while I have my guesses I'll keep them to myself. Hopefully someone can fill in the blanks.
The second was hanging by the line he had been trailing, which was attached to his rear haul loop, not gear loop. It is my understanding that he fell from the top and it is unknown why he stopped after roughly 70 feet.”
This is a start, but to really try and get a fix on what happened, you have to be able to reverse engineer the whole scenario, and usually do a whole lot of noodling and going back and forth with possibilities till one feels right.
With this accident, we have a survivor who – by luck and the grace of God – is already back at work. To me, the above breakdown sounds so bizarre (and not detailed enough) that I’m very hesitant to plow into this till the survivor – or someone who briefed the survivor – chimes in with a first-hand account.
JL
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xtrmecat
Mar 18, 2009, 5:10 PM
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What John said. It should wait till reliable first hand information is at hand. Also there are Woody's friends, and children who are lurking here, mostly trying to grieve and understand what may have happened. Misinformation and conjecture makes this harder for them.
Again, my condolences to the family and friends.
Bob
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Adk
Mar 18, 2009, 10:12 PM
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I'm saddened by this news. Another great climber lost....
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gblauer
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Mar 18, 2009, 10:20 PM
Post #82 of 115
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Rest in Peace. My condolences to friends and family.
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bluering
Mar 19, 2009, 3:21 AM
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Maybe we should wait for details before we take the words of people who showed up after the fact, at face value.
Be patient, AND QUIT TRYING TO WORK THIS OUT WITHOUT PROPER DETAILS!!!!
A lot of people are still hurting from this.
Wait for the accurate details.
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robdotcalm
Mar 19, 2009, 4:08 AM
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cfarr wrote: While I am very hesitant to reply, I would like to know what happened, for closure I guess. I was the third or fourth person on the scene. I am still puzzled by what I saw. The second was about thirty feet up, hanging on what appeared to be the second rope for the third member of the party. The rope was clipped into his haul loop, with no line attached at tie in point! The lead line was hanging near the ground with the first half of a figure 8 near to the ground, and ran through 2 or 3 pieces not far from the top of the formation where the other end appeared to still be. Nothing appeared to be attached to the deceased. Too many unknowns to make conclusions, and while I have my guesses I'll keep them to myself. Hopefully someone can fill in the blanks. Any information on how the second is doing would be very appreciated.
Thanks for sharing the observations you made when arriving upon the scene of the accident.
Rob.Calm
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curt
Mar 19, 2009, 4:13 AM
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bluering wrote: Maybe we should wait for details before we take the words of people who showed up after the fact, at face value. Be patient, AND QUIT TRYING TO WORK THIS OUT WITHOUT PROPER DETAILS!!!! A lot of people are still hurting from this. Wait for the accurate details.
The details of this accident that have been posted here so far are from another climbing party that was climbing in the same vicinity at the time of the incident--and from another party that arrived on the scene soon after the accident. Unfortunately, these two reports are in serious conflict with one another with respect to many of the specifics of the accident. Obviously, we would all like to have better information.
With that said, perhaps you simply shouldn't read any of the comments that are posted in an "Accident Analysis" forum, if this sort of thing causes you to get your panties all up in a bunch.
Curt
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clintcummins
Mar 19, 2009, 4:24 AM
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surfergirl wrote: i don't know what happened but i agree that the news articles do not sound right. my partner saw him at the TOP of the wall, with his second following. she heard the fall, looked up, and saw the second swinging and the leader was gone. maybe someone with more experience than me can make some sense out of these facts.
Curt, this account by surfergirl does not conflict with the observations by cfarr on page 3 of this thread. These accounts only conflict with initial accident description from the newspaper article, which Wendell on supertopo said was quite inaccurate.
(This post was edited by clintcummins on Mar 19, 2009, 4:26 AM)
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curt
Mar 19, 2009, 4:55 AM
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clintcummins wrote: surfergirl wrote: i don't know what happened but i agree that the news articles do not sound right. my partner saw him at the TOP of the wall, with his second following. she heard the fall, looked up, and saw the second swinging and the leader was gone. maybe someone with more experience than me can make some sense out of these facts. Curt, this account by surfergirl does not conflict with the observations by cfarr on page 3 of this thread. These accounts only conflict with initial accident description from the newspaper article, which Wendell on supertopo said was quite inaccurate.
Yes, you are right--and I stand corrected. The reports of all the pulled gear were in the newspaper article and not in surfergirl's accounts of the accident.
Curt
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blondgecko
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Mar 19, 2009, 5:00 AM
Post #88 of 115
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Would someone who knew him please start a thread in the "In memory of" forum? I don't think it's really my place to do so.
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notapplicable
Mar 19, 2009, 5:17 AM
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blondgecko wrote: Would someone who knew him please start a thread in the "In memory of" forum? I don't think it's really my place to do so.
I've been thinking the same thing for two days. A lot of people were taken off guard by this one and are forgetting that things are broken down in to injury, analysis and memory for a reason.
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ninjakait
Mar 19, 2009, 5:45 AM
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Hey guys,
I understand all of your speculation and curiosity about my father. The CORRECT information will be available for you all to analyze when it is the proper time. Please let us get the man buried before the vultures can swarm down any more.
Thanks.
-Tia
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blondgecko
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Mar 19, 2009, 6:00 AM
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ninjakait wrote: Hey guys, I understand all of your speculation and curiosity about my father. The CORRECT information will be available for you all to analyze when it is the proper time. Please let us get the man buried before the vultures can swarm down any more. Thanks. -Tia
First of all, let me say that I'm very, very sorry for your loss. But please don't look at the speculation in this thread as "vultures swarming". Note that many of the people involved in the questioning and speculation knew your father, and many were friends with him. Asking questions and trying to work out what happened is part of their process of trying to come to terms with his loss.
There is a new thread in the "In Memory Of" forum now. I can promise you that any speculation will be strictly verboten there.
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ninjakait
Mar 19, 2009, 6:28 AM
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Thank you for your condolences.
I completely understand the need for a breakdown of events and I meant "vultures" more in the media/people who have no idea kind of way rather than people who are commenting intelligently. Also, when I was stating that the correct information will be available it was because the report out now is completely wrong and to attempt to analyze it would be pointless.
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cosmiccragsman
Mar 19, 2009, 7:22 AM
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Hey Tia;
I hope you got my PM on ST
I think I put my ph# in it. If not, Locker has it.
Woody was one of my climbing partners, as also
Tia, and I can state with inside knowledge that
the initial reports are WRONG.
WAIT till The investigation is over and the OFFICIAL version comes out, and then you ALL over here can analyse all you want.
Tia(ninjakait) Locker, Blitzo, and I, put up
a NEW Route today in HONOR of Woody,
It's a GREAT 5 bolt 5.9 called "Thinkin' of the WOODSTER"
See ya soon, Ninja
Cosmic
(This post was edited by cosmiccragsman on Mar 19, 2009, 7:23 AM)
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justthemaid
Mar 19, 2009, 1:51 PM
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This was clearly a complicated sequence of events. Everything posted so far is wild conjecture and completely meaningless until a real evaluation comes in from witnesses and people who are qualified to report an accurate accident report.
My condolences Tia. Cosmic and Locker speak often and fondly of you father every time I see them.
Links to a couple memorial threads for Woody on ST.
http://www.supertopo.com/...html?topic_id=808573
http://www.supertopo.com/...html?topic_id=810944
(This post was edited by justthemaid on Mar 19, 2009, 2:00 PM)
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vivalargo
Mar 19, 2009, 5:28 PM
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cosmiccragsman wrote: I can state with inside knowledge that the initial reports are WRONG. WAIT till The investigation is over and the OFFICIAL version comes out, and then you ALL over here can analyse all you want. Cosmic
There has been an "official" report, listed on a Gov. web site. Because that report is so poorly fashioned is partly why people are calling for a more detailed and comprehensive breakdown. There must be some valid reason (strategic, not emotional) that the details are still being withheld.
Remember that both the leader and the second were found totally detached from the lead rope, which so far as Curt and I know, is unprecedented in the history of climbing accidents. It might take a few days to figure out what happened given such unique factors.
JL
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shaggy67
Mar 20, 2009, 1:23 AM
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I have climbed one time with Alfred about a year ago in the same area and he was rehabing from a hiking fall that messed him up pretty bad. Its sad that this has happened but just make sure to climb within your limits
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shackkat
Mar 20, 2009, 6:00 AM
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My brother (a firefighter/paramedic) was climbing on the Thin Wall. He and his partner (another firefighter) saw the incident and were the first or second one there. He is completely confused at what he saw. He assisted another climber in getting the other 44yo down. He described the scene to me and I am amazed. cfar is pretty close to what he described.
I'm very sorry for the loss of this rock icon.
Dan
P.S. Climb on Woody. Climb on.
(This post was edited by shackkat on Mar 20, 2009, 6:02 AM)
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csproul
Mar 21, 2009, 2:05 PM
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Was the second climber Al Kwok (it was spelled Kuok in the report)?
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jt512
Mar 21, 2009, 2:08 PM
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csproul wrote: Was the second climber Al Kwok (it was spelled Kuok in the report)?
Yes.
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wallmonkey35
Mar 21, 2009, 2:18 PM
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Yes, Al Kwok was the second climber involved.
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Re: [cfarr] climber killed in Joshua Tree National Park 3/15
[
