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toboredtosleep
Mar 22, 2009, 10:09 PM
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Hello All,
I'm a climbing instructor at a University REC center. I'm seeking a demonstration of the dangers of back clipping. I have heard of a demonstration, in which you back clip the quickdraws and then throw a sand bag (or something heavy enough) off the wall to show what happens when you back clip. I'm having trouble getting it setup right and wanted to know if anyone has better instructions for setting this demo up.
I know I can show them by manually holding the rope and going through the motions, but my point gets across so much better when they all watch a 25-30lb bag smack the ground with all the draws unclipped. :)
Any help is appreciated!
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northfacejmb
Mar 22, 2009, 10:15 PM
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I've never tried it, but I'm pretty sure you have to have really stiff dog bones on the draws for it to work. From what I've see noticed, if they're too flexible they tend to just twist around and prevent it from back clipping.
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toboredtosleep
Mar 22, 2009, 10:19 PM
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Well, here at the gym we have the BD Quick-Silver quickdraws, 12 cm. It is a small 35' wall. We back clipped the first three clips and hoisted a 25lb pig to the top of the wall. The end of the rope not tied to the pig, was anchored with a biner to the anchors on the floor. We tried throwing the pig up and out away from the wall but each time the draws held true.
If it is a case of the dog bones needing to be really stiff on the draws, how can I stiffen a 12cm Quick-Silver dog bone?
Thanks
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busch_rpm
Mar 22, 2009, 10:59 PM
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Are you dropping from the same angle all the time? try moving a couple of feet to the left or right. If you drop the weight from the center, it would be harder to demonstrate I believe.
(This post was edited by busch_rpm on Mar 22, 2009, 11:02 PM)
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toboredtosleep
Mar 22, 2009, 11:07 PM
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I don't believe we tried changing the angle from center. We were pressed on time, next time we try, I'll be sure to change the angle.
On stiffening the dog bone, do you think it would be better or worse to just place a biner on the bold instead of the entire draw?
(This post was edited by toboredtosleep on Mar 22, 2009, 11:08 PM)
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bill413
Mar 22, 2009, 11:18 PM
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Placing the biner on the bolt might (or might not) work better, but would it be as effective a demonstration?
I'd say try throwing the weight in the direction the gates are facing - I think (without personal experience, thankfully) that that is more likely to give you the *ahem* desired results.
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toboredtosleep
Mar 22, 2009, 11:28 PM
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True, changing the quickdraws to biners would not as effective in demonstrating the point. However, I still think that the twisting of the dog bone will inhibit the rope from unclipping from the draw.
By throwing it in the direction of the gate, you mean throwing it only to the right/left instead of throwing it out and over?
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northfacejmb
Mar 23, 2009, 1:08 AM
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I would guess that your best bet would be those fat Petzl ones in whatever their shortest size is, but like I said I've never tried to do a demonstration like you are planning.
I bet if you just play around with the angles and such that you will get it eventually.
When you get it to work post up a video for us. I am really interested to see how it works out.
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vegastradguy
Mar 23, 2009, 1:21 AM
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considering you have to essentially immobilize the carabiner to demonstrate it, and the fact that the angle has to be just right, you'd be hard pressed to unclip more than one draw at a time.
i think that doing it by hand more than gets the point across- recognizing that the motion of the rope alone can unclip the draw is enough to spook most people.
also, setting up a demo and having it NOT work could work against you in showing that you shouldnt back clip. if it doesnt work, or even works partially, they may take away the message that if you back clip something bad kinda might happen rather than this WILL happen if you do it by hand.
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bill413
Mar 23, 2009, 1:22 AM
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toboredtosleep wrote: By throwing it in the direction of the gate, you mean throwing it only to the right/left instead of throwing it out and over?
I would think that roughly 45 degrees would give the best chance. Oh - probably with the rope not tight would be better. I know some folks on this site have experimented with which direction to clip, whether both biners same way or reversed are better, etc. I'd say try a number of angles, remembering that it won't happen every time.
After all - some things we know can kill you are still survivable just because they don't happen every time (think about all the folks belaying with Grigris with both hands off the system). So, you might not get an "unclip" every time - but, if it happens one out of ten....too much for me.
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toboredtosleep
Mar 23, 2009, 1:28 AM
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I'm pretty sure this demo works, just a matter of how. The person in which I heard it from said that she had seen it done. She couldn't remember any setup details.
Even if one and only one unclips that is enough to scare the crap out of me and I'm completely ok with taking a good whipper. Seeing as how the class is tomorrow, I won't be doing this demo for the upcoming class, but I will work with it after the class has left to see if I can get it working. If I do get it to work I'll be sure to post a video with the setup.
Edit: I think my problem might be more related to the biner on the draw. I don't know how the REC center's draws are for newness, but I have a brand new rack of BD QuickSilvers and the gate is pretty rigid on them. I wonder if I use the beat-to-high-hell old petzel wire gates that the REC owns? Just an idea...
(This post was edited by toboredtosleep on Mar 23, 2009, 1:37 AM)
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static_endurance
Mar 23, 2009, 2:04 AM
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I've never done this, but I've got a pretty good picture of what it should look like.
If you back clip, it's gotta come up on either one side or the other of the bolt, so long as the bone doesn't twist. if you back clip so the rope comes up on the gate side of the bottom beaner, then cross the rope over the bone so the sandbag falls more on the spine side, the rope will have to move across the gate. Whether it'll actually unclip, I'm not sure, but give that a shot.
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toboredtosleep
Mar 23, 2009, 2:13 AM
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Ok, the twisting of the bone is the problem. I'm sitting here with my rope and a draw trying to find the best way to do this. If you back clip it as static_endurance says, and hold the base of the biner, and move the rope like a fall happened it pops right out. As soon as you hold the other biner, the fall causes the bone to twist, make the back-clip less likely to unclip.
So stiff dog bone = happy demonstration..
(This post was edited by toboredtosleep on Mar 23, 2009, 2:18 AM)
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viper720
Mar 23, 2009, 2:18 AM
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Wrap some duck tape around the dogbone and that should stiffen it up enough.
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toboredtosleep
Mar 23, 2009, 2:21 AM
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Putzing with it, you really have to hold the base of the lower biner still to get it to work everytime. The Duct Tape didn't work all that well, but I didn't want to wrap my draws in duck tape. Any other suggestions for making the entire bone sturdy?
(This post was edited by toboredtosleep on Mar 23, 2009, 2:42 AM)
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static_endurance
Mar 23, 2009, 2:46 AM
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If it's one of the bones with a rubber gusset on the bottom, try sliding the gusset more towards the gate so the gate faces up more. Even with the twisting bone, it might still catch.
Then again, combining a stiffer bone with this will probably get the gate to open almost every time.
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toboredtosleep
Mar 23, 2009, 3:00 AM
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K, moving the rubber gusset towards the gate helps. If we can stiffen the bone then the angled gate will help a lot. I just need to throw the weight off to the spine side of the biner and it will easily unclip. Non-destructive methods to strengthening the bone?
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acorneau
Mar 23, 2009, 3:06 AM
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You're not getting it... as you can see, getting a draw to actually unclip because of a back clip is really hard.
Don't you think you should be telling your students, "The odds of the rope unclipping when back clipped is higher then when clipped properly, however the odds of it actually coming unclipped are very low"???!?!?!???
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bill413
Mar 23, 2009, 3:19 AM
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acorneau wrote: You're not getting it... as you can see, getting a draw to actually unclip because of a back clip is really hard. Don't you think you should be telling your students, "The odds of the rope unclipping when back clipped is higher then when clipped properly, however the odds of it actually coming unclipped are very low"???!?!?!???
No, no - rig the demo so it shows what you want....truth or not.
Seriously - you (and your students) should be aware that a back clip is NOT an automatic death sentence if you fall. There have certainly been a lot of climbers who looked down, saw they were backclipped, and said "F* it - I'm too sketchy to fix that!" Most of them have survived.
The backclip definitely increases your odds of becoming unclipped in a fall. It does not guarantee that you will become unclipped.
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toboredtosleep
Mar 23, 2009, 3:21 AM
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I would agree getting it to unclip while back clipped is really actually quite a hard thing. Draws are well designed to do their job. But that chance is still there that it could unclip. I don't exactly like gamble with my life. The point of the demonstration is to show what can happen if you don't care about back clipping. Maybe it is extreme, but it is also fun. I'd rather not just sit in a classroom and listen to the teacher lecture for hours about the information, but throw a little life into the presentation.
I do agree that it should be still stated as the chances are low.
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jsj7051
Mar 23, 2009, 3:21 AM
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acorneau wrote: You're not getting it... as you can see, getting a draw to actually unclip because of a back clip is really hard. Don't you think you should be telling your students, "The odds of the rope unclipping when back clipped is higher then when clipped properly, however the odds of it actually coming unclipped are very low"???!?!?!???
I agree , your trying really hard to make something fail , and you have to invent ways to try to make it happen.
Why not show them that the biggest error is human error not equipment error.
Try teaching them "Protecting the pitch" when belaying,most climbers have no clue what that is.
Its easy to set up that demo with several different climbers at a time . 2-3 climber & belayers at different areas.
(This post was edited by jsj7051 on Mar 23, 2009, 3:26 AM)
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toboredtosleep
Mar 23, 2009, 3:33 AM
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Yes, and if only we could talk to the guy who set this up before... it could be we are just going about it wrong. But, hey sorry for asking if anyone knew an easy way to set this up.
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jsj7051
Mar 23, 2009, 3:41 AM
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Sorry, did not mean to offend. 
Original Post - No I do not nor have I ever even heard of this.
I mostly trad climb with most pieces slung long so back clipping is not a very big issue .
(This post was edited by jsj7051 on Mar 23, 2009, 3:42 AM)
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bill413
Mar 23, 2009, 3:46 AM
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toboredtosleep wrote: Yes, and if only we could talk to the guy who set this up before... it could be we are just going about it wrong. But, hey sorry for asking if anyone knew an easy way to set this up.
Seriously, as we think about this - it's not a guaranteed occurance, it's an increased risk. So, demonstating it with the biner & rope in your hand (where you can reliably get it to happen) may be a more convincing way to demonstrate it than trying to do it full scale. They could see how it happens in a way that presents them with the principles, not just the rote "if you do this it is bad." Instead - they will be able to see why it is bad.
Yeah, a sandbag thudding into the floor is spectacular. (And it certainly caught my imagination when you suggested it.) But, maybe an illustration of the mechanics might let them extrapolate to variable situations.
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toboredtosleep
Mar 23, 2009, 3:46 AM
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jsj7051 wrote: Sorry, did not mean to offend. Original Post - No I do not nor have I ever even heard of this. I mostly trad climb with most pieces slung long so back clipping is not a very big issue .
None taken. I understand what everyone is trying to say, but anything that increases the chance of you getting injured or death is kinda a big deal, especially when your dealing with climbers who aren't very experienced. I was also hoping there was like some pre-written already been done easy way to demo this. But apprently not... This demo with an explanation of the mechanics would really add something fun to the class.
(This post was edited by toboredtosleep on Mar 23, 2009, 3:52 AM)
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