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naitch
Mar 13, 2009, 3:18 PM
Post #26 of 60
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I ‘ll add my 2 cents. Get ready for a ramble... I’ve been going to Franklin for about 8 years, however I usually only hit it up once in the spring and once in the fall. The whole sport scene is not my thing. There seems to be a whole different mind set that goes along with the testosterone driven, gym climbing, group social atmosphere that is more common in the sport world. I climb, in part, to get away from that whole scene. So, given that’s my bias…read on.
1) I don’t agree with partially altering a route. If a route is going to be altered/chopped, do it in a way that it’s clear from the bottom of the climb. I agree with Bryan that if a person gets on a route, they should be ready for whatever, including missing top anchors. HOWEVER, it only leads to more contention and disharmony within the climbing community to do it in a way that not obvious. If an accident happens it threatens the access of the whole community. If it's going to be done, then make it clear from the get go. In my way of viewing things it is ethically wrong/”dishonest” to remove top anchors with no indication that they are missing.
2) There are lots of different angles to consider in the ethics of a “public” climbing area in relation to altering routes, even if one feels they have the “right” to do so because they were partly or solely responsible for putting it up. My question would be "What leads to the desired long term end result and the most harmony within the community?" This may yield a different answer than just saying, “F#$k’m, I put it up, I have the right to do whatever I want with it.” In our highly individualistic society (especially climbers), trying to promote group ethos and harmony is a challenge, to say the least. Climbers by nature are highly individualistic people. I know Mike has tried, but sometimes it has been a very a mis-directed very individualistic approach to trying to promote group responsibility and harmony. There are better ways…
3) I sympathize with Mike’s sentiments (and his work) in relation to tying keep up the place and preserve it. I disagree with his methods - both attitudes/words and actions. We need to work at finding a way to promote group consensus and responsibility. Easily stated, hard to do in the real world and maybe "consensus" is an oxymoron in the climbing world... However, maybe there are also approaches that haven't been tried and need to be.
4) I happened to be there Sunday climbing with one of my occasional climbing partners. I just happened to have picked the one wrong “pre-Spring” day to be there. There were tons of people. I didn’t see Mike (Gray) but did meet his climbing partner Mike Fisher for the first time and had a great discussion with him about the area, new routes, etc. I was shocked to find out yesterday that Gray had chopped/altered the routes as he mentioned above. There has got to be a new group awareness, responsibility, etc. if Franklin is going to continue to be a viable place to climb. This means some letting go on Mike’s part instead of “ruling” over the area like a dictator, as well as much more awareness by the general climbing public regarding upkeep, climbing ethic, and issues. I can imagine Mike maybe saying, “Yeah, right!? Been there, done that…” However, I don’t see the current way working and it is probably more of a detriment in the long run than just a hands off approach.
5) I am totally against large groups using the area. The Syracuse group needs to tread lightly and be informed of the issues and impact they have and re-think their approach (as well as other groups - i.e. DC, Pittsburgh, Richmond, etc.) . I would suggest that people not show up in groups larger than 4. Can’t be reinforced, but it could become a stated “rule” that it’s uncool to “gang-bang” the place as Mike put it. If that’s what groups want, stay in the gym. That goes for Seneca as well. Yes, it's cool to be a part of a large group that goes and does things together, but that mindset (to me) is totally against a responsible outdoor preservation ethic. No it’s not a wilderness area, but large groups certainly don’t help create an atmosphere that is conducive to enjoying nature.
6) I guess all this has reinforced even more why I prefer trad even though some of the same type issues can plague it also. Maybe next time I show up at Franklin it will be with my full trad rack looking for lines not normally climbed and if wanting to do a route beyond my trad ability then set a natural and/or gear TR if the anchors have been chopped/removed. I have done that in the past and if top anchors are being removed that may be the only alternative. There's also ways to get to the top of most climbs without climbing if you're creative.
7) It’s probably totally impossible to get away from all the issues because of the nature of the place and the type of climbers that frequent it. I enjoy climbing in all its forms, however I have to say that I have less in common with the attitudes and egos that I see displayed more in the bouldering and sport climbing worlds. I would highly recommend that people read and take to heart some of the attitudes and philosophy of climbing from old timers such as Pat Ament who have learned through a life-time of climbing. Any of his writings, but especially "Everything That Matters: remembering Rock Climbing" (especially the following two chapters: Humility and the Still Moment: The Magic of Baker Armstrong" and "A Soul is the Song of its Own Time: On the Individual and Competition"). We have much to learn from the wisdom of those who have gone before us. If we don't learn from history we're bound to repeat it...
YMMV
Craig Spaulding
(This post was edited by naitch on Mar 14, 2009, 2:56 PM)
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DrGoBig
Mar 13, 2009, 4:00 PM
Post #27 of 60
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"All I see is a bunch of people bitching about someone chopping their own routes to reduce the damage being done to an area of Franklin."
To set the record straight for the conversation, they were not all his routes. However, as I said before, there seems to be a method to choosing some of the additional routes.
"Mike has every right to chop routes he put up."
Is this really true? Does a FAist really "own" a route forever, or are they given to the climbing community? Some of these lines are obvious. Are we going to have different bolts or bolt holes for every person/city/club/whatever to climb on? If someone restores the routes will they be rechopped?
Trying to respectfully discuss... lemme know what you guys think.
(This post was edited by DrGoBig on Mar 13, 2009, 4:43 PM)
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keegan540
Mar 13, 2009, 4:14 PM
Post #28 of 60
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DrGoBig wrote: All I see is a bunch of people bitching about someone chopping their own routes to reduce the damage being done to an area of Franklin. To set the record straight for the conversation, they were not all his routes. However, as I said before, there seems to be a method to altering some of the additional routes. You are correct, most FA's were joint ascents but as you pointed out he did aid in putting up many of these routes. And I agree with you about the method. The small area from Castaways to the corner past Trident has been closed. This area has been a point of contention for Mike on trail destruction for some time now. I agree with you about why some of the routes were altered as well, dead trees and old webbing anchors needed to be removed. As well as any anchors/bolts of poor condition. Mike has every right to chop routes he put up. Is this really true? Does a FAist really "own" a route forever, or are they given to the climbing community? Some of these lines are obvious. Are we going to have different bolts or bolt holes for every person/city/club/whatever to climb on? If someone restores the routes will they be rechopped? I only make this statement because in our community the FA is given the respect to make decisions on routes he/she has established. Now chopping a route may be a bit extreme, but where do we draw the line? As for the extra bolts, I see the point, but it's the same issue. It's all ethics, and how do we as climbers (not landowners) make the decision on what gets bolted and what doesn't? Trying to respectfully discuss... lemme know what you guys think.
(This post was edited by keegan540 on Mar 13, 2009, 4:21 PM)
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lodi5onu
Mar 13, 2009, 7:31 PM
Post #29 of 60
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Spot on post Timepenguin.
not much to add besides it is sad that franklin was so unlucky as to have a narcisstic, self righteous, self-proclaimed misanthropic shithead become the steward
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notapplicable
Mar 13, 2009, 8:40 PM
Post #30 of 60
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WVUCLMBR wrote: Thanks Mike, I was completely burnout on rc.com, but this thread has made me realize that wading thru the pool of rc bs is sometimes worth it. So WVUCLMBR is back, I'm gonna be less talkative, but I'll be around. And yes Adatesman, I know I still owe you a Coopers big wall documentary. Oh, and Franklin sucks, so I could really give 2 shytes less what you chop. Bryan...
Getting bored now that football seasons over eh?
Welcome back.
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notapplicable
Mar 13, 2009, 8:50 PM
Post #31 of 60
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TimePenguin wrote: His intentions aside, Mike's actions and gruff demeanor make him a poor steward for Franklin, a negative force in creating a sense of climbing community there...
This I pretty much agree with.
Problem is, who is going to take his place? Do you know anyone with the right combination of proximity, passion and knowledge to take on the responsibility of maintaining Franklin?
Someone is going to have to do it because WV doesn't have a climbing coalition that will, no government funds and oversight to get it done and the land owner damn sure isn't/shouldn't have to. What's the solution?
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notapplicable
Mar 13, 2009, 9:24 PM
Post #32 of 60
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naitch wrote: 1) I don’t agree with partially altering a route. If a route is going to be altered/chopped, do it in a way that it’s clear from the bottom of the climb. I agree with Bryan that if a person gets on a route, they should be ready for whatever, including missing top anchors. HOWEVER, it only leads to more contention and disharmony within the climbing community to do it in a way that not obvious. If an accident happens it threatens the access of the whole community. If it's going to be done, then make it clear from the get go. In my way of viewing things it is ethically wrong/”dishonest” to remove top anchors with no indication that they are missing.
I'm with you 100% on this. I think that if temporary closures are going to be made, all the hangers should be pulled but the studs left in place. If a route is going to be chopped, it should be chopped all the way up.
It just bothers me to see people running around with their hair on fire and crying that people are gonna die just because anchors are missing. It doesn't even make sense. At a place like Franklin where most of the routes end right at the top of the cliff, all removing the anchor does is prevent people from top roping the route. Anyone can still lead it, anchor to a tree with the rope and belay from above. What he's done is shut down the top rope gang banging.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 14, 2009, 2:36 AM)
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thatstoohigh
Mar 14, 2009, 12:21 AM
Post #33 of 60
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WOW! You are an asshole and passive aggressive at that... If you really had an issue with a group of people climbing at a Crag that you yourself do not own then you should TALK to them... not chop the bolts! That's dangerous and irresponsible and you have no right bolting, chopping, or for that matter even climbing with that attitude...
Burn in hell!
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roninthorne
Mar 14, 2009, 3:22 PM
Post #34 of 60
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Thanks, keegan... see ya elsewhere, or on some of the other 117 routes at Franklin.
That's right, folks... there are still over 100 routes at Franklin, but you're crying because the only person to ever make the effort to meet the landowners and maintain the hardware without the support of a national organization removed 12 of the shortest routes at the crag, two of which I bolted in the first place. Do you think I liked chopping the first route I ever bolted there?
If so, you better go.... the short bus is waiting...
Not applicable- you just stick to figuring out how you and the rest of the real estate developers can cover Nelson with tract houses and condos and cater to al these pussies. Your condemnation amounts to nothing more or less than a PR investment in the improbable point at which you can buy the place.
For the rest of ya- yep, I'm a monster... the monster who took the time and touble to meet the folks on whose land you so self-righteously tresspass and bring your dogs. Do any of you realize that, if not for my direct intervention and intense work with the various landowners, Franklin would likely have been shut down over ten years ago, when a visiting climber told one of said landowners to get out of "his" campsite when that landowner simply asked him to reduce the size of his fire during a period of extreme forest fire danger?
Have any of YOU even bothered to try to find out who owns the place?
Have any of YOU even bothered to spend a dime at the store RIGHT BESIDE THE ENTRANCE, supporting local businesses and meeting local people, instead of coming here in your hybrids and groups and sneering in unjustified superiority at the locals (quite a few of whom fled the beltway generations ago... something none of you have the guts or sense to do)?
Yep, I am a monster... one who shits on the couragous condemnations you make from the far side of the keyboard. After well over a decade of trying to educate and cooperate with self-entitled climbers, I decided that there had been enough talk, because no one was really listening.
Well, I see I have your attention now.....
I fully intend to not only return these routes to functionality, but to also replace as many of the old bolts as possible, on my own time, with my own tools. No free waterbottles, T-shirts, or front-page interviews on RC.com or any other sites for the guy who keeps YOU climbing at Franklin. It will happen, because I gave my word to people I respect that I would do so, and no matter what you internet heroes think or say, I'll do it my way. I understand that, bhind al the rhtoric of endangerment and Mike-bashing, what you're most pissed off about is that it just isn't going to happen on anyone's timetable but my own. Too fucking bad....
Don't like my attitude? Try going it alone, using funds out of your own pocket and dedicating time that could have been spent with family and friends instead repairing the damage of hundreds of irresponsible "visitors".
Try listening to a decade and more of happy, self-congratulatory PR for the AF while doing the work there without any support from the hundreds of Access Fund members who climbed there without a thought to it being private land or to maintaining trails and hardware until a non-member, ME, finally put together an attempt to get everyone involved in the fight to keep the place functional.
So what if you drive three hours to get there? I've flown across the US and done trailwork there, during holidays I could have been spending with my family or cranking at other crags. That's what you do when you give your word, kiddies.
You claim how hard it is to put up with my personality or attitude. You're all so aggro when online, but you're such incredible pussies that you cling to the excuse of some 45-yr-old man with an artificial knee and a bad back being the reason you can't come and do trailwork? Even when you show up and I'm not there?
Lame, limp-dick, sag-ass posers, the lot of ya.
If you spent half the energy working on the trails that you do dissing me and making excuses why you can't and it's my fault, I'd never need to do any work at Franklin.
What's funniest is that half of you would lick John Sherman's bag just to shake his hand and get hinm to autograph your copy of Stone Crusade... and his attitudes are exactly the same as mine. Before he sold out to the mining industry, he was one of my heroes, along with Ed Abbey and Mark Wilford and a lot of the other guys you don't hear about anymore because they didn't give two shits what the world thought of them if they were determined to do what is right.
If who I am or what I've done pisses you off so badly, come on out to Franklin for the next traildays in June, and express your outrage in person.
Or admit that, unlke me, you're all talk, just a hot, sphincter-scented breeze blowing through the internet and across the forums of RC.com...
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DrGoBig
Mar 14, 2009, 4:32 PM
Post #35 of 60
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Mike, I don't think most people who know anything about Franklin doubt that you have put a lot of effort into Franklin over the years.
Is the point of the route altering, in fact, to raise awareness?
If so, whats the solution? I think you want climbers at Franklin to closely follow these guidelines:
1) Don't bring your dog to Franklin
2) Be wary of impact - don't wander off trail and limit group sizes
3) Be respectful of the locals/landowners - buy your stuff at the store outside Franklin to support local business and make sure you dont park in front of the landowners' access road
4) More people need to come to trailwork days
5) Tell your friends and other people at Franklin about the previous 4 things
Anything else to add?
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notapplicable
Mar 16, 2009, 3:06 AM
Post #36 of 60
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roninthorne wrote: Not applicable- you just stick to figuring out how you and the rest of the real estate developers can cover Nelson with tract houses and condos and cater to al these pussies. Your condemnation amounts to nothing more or less than a PR investment in the improbable point at which you can buy the place.
Damn Mike, you sure are a hard one.
I would ask you to go back and read my posts to this thread and all the others where Franklin was the subject at hand. Agreeing with and defending you on a bunch of points and disagreeing with you on a few others does not amount to "condemnation". People are gonna disagree in life, unlike most other people in this thread I have tried to do so respectfully but your tendency not to act in kind is what makes you less than ideally suited to act as public liaison in these matters.
That is not a personal attack, I like you as a person. It's just that you have a tendency to try and guilt and berate people in to doing the right thing and getting rather pissed off when it doesn't work. It's kind of like giving a person with extreme ADD the job of legal secretary or an agoraphobic a public speaking engagement. Not really the best pairing.
roninthorne wrote: If who I am or what I've done pisses you off so badly, come on out to Franklin for the next traildays in June, and express your outrage in person. Or admit that, unlke me, you're all talk, just a hot, sphincter-scented breeze blowing through the internet and across the forums of RC.com...
This pretty much highlights my point. What other individual (other than yourself) donated more money to last springs trail building and rebolting efforts than I did? Go ask Mike F. what I told him about the use of the money. I didn't care what you used it for, bolts, food for trail day, equipment or as simple compensation for your time invested in hardware replacement. Then I PM'd you about signing up for the Yahoo group so that I could donate to the fall efforts but at the time you said there were to be no more trail days.
Now you attack me for respectfully disagreeing with you on some points and suggesting that if all this is causing you as much anxiety as it appears to be, maybe you should wash you hands of Franklin. I'll just say this, much of your outrage and indignation is justified but in this case, it is very much misdirected.
I'd still like to know how donations are being made now that trail days are back on because it's not about you or me or any other individual. If you guys are gonna be out there rebolting and building trails I'd like to help cover the cost of that work and I will continue to do the clean up I normally do when ever I come through Franklin.
Respect and thanks,
Bryan
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roninthorne
Mar 16, 2009, 5:19 PM
Post #37 of 60
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Well, well, well....
First, DrGoBig- Bingo.
Not app- you swing back and forth between stroking and backstabbing so fast that I'm starting to chafe on both sides, k? With friends like thee, Judas...
Do I own the climbs? Nope... just the hardware... which is all I've taken away. Belly of the Whale needed rebolting... or did you like the added spice of almost 2" of projecting stud possibly snapping your carabiner or digging a nice groove in your flesh in the event of a fall?
Keelhauled used a tree that is presently decomposing at the base for an anchor, and was put up with bolts that had since rusted almost in half. Both will be restored, and Keelhauled will actually end at seperate anchors, instead of stemming right to reach BOTW's.
Some of the top anchor bolts (like the one on constantly gang-raped Castaways) snapped off with only a quarter-turn of the ratchet while I was attempting to loosen them. Despite the abuse here, I'm glad that you, your gymby friends, or your seventeen year old daughter didn't discover this weakness while toproping or lowering from a lead.
(Interesting strategy, BTW- threatening to me while informing an unknown host of internet predators that you might have a teen daughter who travels without you and is actually that stupid... sounds like her biggest danger is Daddy's flapping piehole and failure to teach her to read rock before tossing her out into the real world.)
Those bolts will be replaced by yours truly and by Mike Fisher. He's the very laid-back Mike that many of you are confusing me, the monster asshole dickhead- all terms that, in the Universal Translator, come out as "Someone so unconcerned about being popular and sucking up to the dig-ME scene that he's willing to take a stand." Don't do Mr. Fisher such a disservice as taking out your frustrated angst on him.. he has said many times that it ain't his fight, and is the Dr. Goodwhack who originally said to me that the lot of ya wasn't worth rope nor water. He just won't waste the time to say it to you in person, and listen to all this chin music and jaw-jacking.
The rock belongs to the folks who purchased it... or are you now going to rationalize about how they don't own it either, especially if you want to climb on it. Self-entitlement is so interesting....
After days of watching (and laughing like hell at) the spectacle of a group so determined to avoid the question of who among you fucked things up in the first place (and I'm sure that some of the responsible parties are the loudest protesters), and listening to the repeatedly rationalizations that you "can't do trailwork (even when I'm not around) because of (my) bad attitude" (I, like the Shadow, apparently have the power to cloud men's minds... not to mention shrinking their already tiny cajones to the size of hydrogen molecules), I've gotta conclude that the majority of you have no interest in finding the culprits when you can join the mob shouting "Burn him... he's a witch!"
(Sorry.... you're actually far more stupid than anything I've ever seen on Monthy Python, and using one of their lines to caricature you is actually a disservice to that fine comic troupe.)
Hell, that ass-suck lodi-whatthfinever admitted doesn't do trailwork or bring a dog to the crag and still had the colossal stupidity to give me shit about being over the top in my stances on those topics.
"I don't stand for anything or anyone but me, Mike! And why should I when I can get so much done on my knees or on all fours? Why do you crag guys have to be so extreme?"
Added to this the fact that I am repeatedly being told how I "should have done" things like posting signs, putting up barriers, talking to groups, contacting gyms/schools or those steadfast defenders of your right to bring your dog to the crag, the Access Fund- every one of which I have tried, repeatedly, for the last decade and more- ANYTHING to keep from inconveniencing those of you making a living off my hard work or unable to climb anything harder than a toproped 5.8... well, some further conclusions become inevitable.
Since damned few of you are worth the effort, I'm giving you what you want. Franklin is all yours... and you'd best believe that the landowners will learn that in the next 24 hours. The upshot is that YOU HAVE NO MORE EXCUSES. Talk is cheap... if the Big Bad Mike is gone, now what are you going to use to rationalize your failure to balance freedom with responsibility? Either you will now do trailwork, on your own or in groups, or you and all your little posse will have to admit that all those excuses were just that- EXCUSES.
Personally, I don't expect to hear anything new from Mr. Fisher in the way of volunteers... but I could be wrong. I have been before... when I thought that more than 10% of climbers from outside WV might be at least 1% smarter and more responsible than the lacquer-huffing, bottle-breaking inbreeds who trash the parking lot on a regular basis.
It's all yours, kiddies. Look for the next area to open up in the not too distant future... and look for my name controlling access to ALL the private land where the biggest and best climbs are there, as well as having already been in communication with the NFS, DNR, and DOT about soon-to-come impact, resource problems and abuses on the public lands adjoining.
You will NOT make another Franklin.
Incidentally- if you think you're going to sue me, you apparently haven't taken a look at what carpenters earn in this part of the world, or paid any attention to the economic crisis engulfing this contry. Not surprising... most of you sound lke hard-core Rush Limbaugh fans, and denial is your main food group. I have about $2,000 (original retail value) in very used climbing gear, tech clothing, and related back copies of magazines, about another $2,000 in heavily-used construction tools, and a few bucks in the bank (I've used most of my $$ to pay for costs of traildays and the previous work/replacements, remember?)
Since you'd likely sue me for some astronomical figure, and include the cost of your lawyers, I'd really have no option but to kill you, instead, once I got a look at you in court and had my court-appointed attorney find out your home address. Not sure how, but I'd probably be able to figure something out while you were hunched over your computer, pounding pud with one hand while spewing vitriol on some other deserving asshole, or rabidly replying to this post.
Finally, re: offers of "vigilante" responses... BULLSHIT! You wouldn't have the courage to give me a harsh look when we meet, binky, and you know it.
Do what ya like, say what ya like about me or my routes. I can still use a few more laughs.
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mojomonkey
Mar 16, 2009, 5:55 PM
Post #38 of 60
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roninthorne wrote: Well, well, well.... First, DrGoBig- Bingo. Not app- you swing back and forth between stroking and backstabbing so fast that I'm starting to chafe on both sides, k? With friends like thee, Judas... Do I own the climbs? Nope... just the hardware... which is all I've taken away. Belly of the Whale needed rebolting... or did you like the added spice of almost 2" of projecting stud possibly snapping your carabiner or digging a nice groove in your flesh in the event of a fall? Keelhauled used a tree that is presently decomposing at the base for an anchor, and was put up with bolts that had since rusted almost in half. Both will be restored, and Keelhauled will actually end at seperate anchors, instead of stemming right to reach BOTW's. Some of the top anchor bolts (like the one on constantly gang-raped Castaways) snapped off with only a quarter-turn of the ratchet while I was attempting to loosen them. Despite the abuse here, I'm glad that you, your gymby friends, or your seventeen year old daughter didn't discover this weakness while toproping or lowering from a lead. (Interesting strategy, BTW- threatening to me while informing an unknown host of internet predators that you might have a teen daughter who travels without you and is actually that stupid... sounds like her biggest danger is Daddy's flapping piehole and failure to teach her to read rock before tossing her out into the real world.) Those bolts will be replaced by yours truly and by Mike Fisher. He's the very laid-back Mike that many of you are confusing me, the monster asshole dickhead- all terms that, in the Universal Translator, come out as "Someone so unconcerned about being popular and sucking up to the dig-ME scene that he's willing to take a stand." Don't do Mr. Fisher such a disservice as taking out your frustrated angst on him.. he has said many times that it ain't his fight, and is the Dr. Goodwhack who originally said to me that the lot of ya wasn't worth rope nor water. He just won't waste the time to say it to you in person, and listen to all this chin music and jaw-jacking. The rock belongs to the folks who purchased it... or are you now going to rationalize about how they don't own it either, especially if you want to climb on it. Self-entitlement is so interesting.... After days of watching (and laughing like hell at) the spectacle of a group so determined to avoid the question of who among you fucked things up in the first place (and I'm sure that some of the responsible parties are the loudest protesters), and listening to the repeatedly rationalizations that you "can't do trailwork (even when I'm not around) because of (my) bad attitude" (I, like the Shadow, apparently have the power to cloud men's minds... not to mention shrinking their already tiny cajones to the size of hydrogen molecules), I've gotta conclude that the majority of you have no interest in finding the culprits when you can join the mob shouting "Burn him... he's a witch!" (Sorry.... you're actually far more stupid than anything I've ever seen on Monthy Python, and using one of their lines to caricature you is actually a disservice to that fine comic troupe.) Hell, that ass-suck lodi-whatthfinever admitted doesn't do trailwork or bring a dog to the crag and still had the colossal stupidity to give me shit about being over the top in my stances on those topics. "I don't stand for anything or anyone but me, Mike! And why should I when I can get so much done on my knees or on all fours? Why do you crag guys have to be so extreme?" Added to this the fact that I am repeatedly being told how I "should have done" things like posting signs, putting up barriers, talking to groups, contacting gyms/schools or those steadfast defenders of your right to bring your dog to the crag, the Access Fund- every one of which I have tried, repeatedly, for the last decade and more- ANYTHING to keep from inconveniencing those of you making a living off my hard work or unable to climb anything harder than a toproped 5.8... well, some further conclusions become inevitable. Since damned few of you are worth the effort, I'm giving you what you want. Franklin is all yours... and you'd best believe that the landowners will learn that in the next 24 hours. The upshot is that YOU HAVE NO MORE EXCUSES. Talk is cheap... if the Big Bad Mike is gone, now what are you going to use to rationalize your failure to balance freedom with responsibility? Either you will now do trailwork, on your own or in groups, or you and all your little posse will have to admit that all those excuses were just that- EXCUSES. Personally, I don't expect to hear anything new from Mr. Fisher in the way of volunteers... but I could be wrong. I have been before... when I thought that more than 10% of climbers from outside WV might be at least 1% smarter and more responsible than the lacquer-huffing, bottle-breaking inbreeds who trash the parking lot on a regular basis. It's all yours, kiddies. Look for the next area to open up in the not too distant future... and look for my name controlling access to ALL the private land where the biggest and best climbs are there, as well as having already been in communication with the NFS, DNR, and DOT about soon-to-come impact, resource problems and abuses on the public lands adjoining. You will NOT make another Franklin. Incidentally- if you think you're going to sue me, you apparently haven't taken a look at what carpenters earn in this part of the world, or paid any attention to the economic crisis engulfing this contry. Not surprising... most of you sound lke hard-core Rush Limbaugh fans, and denial is your main food group. I have about $2,000 (original retail value) in very used climbing gear, tech clothing, and related back copies of magazines, about another $2,000 in heavily-used construction tools, and a few bucks in the bank (I've used most of my $$ to pay for costs of traildays and the previous work/replacements, remember?) Since you'd likely sue me for some astronomical figure, and include the cost of your lawyers, I'd really have no option but to kill you, instead, once I got a look at you in court and had my court-appointed attorney find out your home address. Not sure how, but I'd probably be able to figure something out while you were hunched over your computer, pounding pud with one hand while spewing vitriol on some other deserving asshole, or rabidly replying to this post. Finally, re: offers of "vigilante" responses... BULLSHIT! You wouldn't have the courage to give me a harsh look when we meet, binky, and you know it. Do what ya like, say what ya like about me or my routes. I can still use a few more laughs.
So your real motivation in removing bolts was that they were unsafe and will be replaced? That seems to be the tone of this response, though your first post cast it as punishment:
In reply to: Due to intolerable damage and unreasonable impact demonstrating a complete lack of environmental awareness and/or respect for erosion control, trail building and replanting efforts by local and visiting climbers, the following climbs have been chopped or decommissioned for the foreseeable future:
Maybe safety was the driving factor and you used it as a convenient opportunity to goad and guilt climbers at Franklin.
If that is your tactic, I get the sense (you can tell everything about someone from internet postings, you know) that your promise of moving on doesn't preclude you from being the little birdie in the landowners' ear pointing out the climbers' lack of respect.
A real break might be good for you, as it seems you've moved into a zone where pettiness and revenge supersede your drive to really help Franklin. Maybe the place is beyond hope (I've never been, never will, and have no opinion on it).
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drumminmachine62
Mar 16, 2009, 6:15 PM
Post #39 of 60
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mojomonkey wrote: A real break might be good for you, as it seems you've moved into a zone where pettiness and revenge supersede your drive to really help Franklin.
I second this. I have climbed in franklin dozens of times and it is always a shame to see the lack of respect from some climbers, especially larger, uneducated groups. But really Mike I think now would be a great time to just take a break.
I was there on the Sunday the events that allegedly lead to the closing of the routes happened.
I think i'll just be spending my time climbing elsewhere in the future. There are better routes, half the bickering, and no crowds just down the river.
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Acetaminophen
Mar 16, 2009, 6:20 PM
Post #40 of 60
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Hi Mike! We have not had the pleasure of meeting before but I spend a good bit of time living out at Seneca in the summers and I have enjoyed climbing at Franklin. I have never attended a trail day for two reasons... first because the only one I ever heard about was inconveniently on a holiday weekend and I had to work full shifts at the crappy 4U motel. Secondly, because your reputation precedes you and I have heard from a lot of people the exact same things that time penguin has said. Sorta dissuaded me from wanting to get involved. I don't mean that as an attack on you im just being 100% honest. I would love to meet the landowners if I only knew who they were. If you wouldn't mind telling me who they are, I would be more than happy to get involved...especially since this summer I am looking at doing an internship at the Franklin Rite Aid pharmacy.
-Amy
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notapplicable
Mar 16, 2009, 11:48 PM
Post #41 of 60
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roninthorne wrote: Not app- you swing back and forth between stroking and backstabbing so fast that I'm starting to chafe on both sides, k? With friends like thee, Judas...
We really do need a *raised eyebrow* emoticon on here.
You seem to think I have said or done something insincere with respect to this whole issue. While I may be guilty of a certain degree of naivety as concerns some of the issues at play (and I freely admit that may be the case), that is not the same thing as insincerity.
Thing is, we aren't gonna agree on on every issue or action Mike. I'm sorry thats a problem for you but I'm not sure there is much to be done about it. Tis simply the nature of things.
roninthorne wrote: Those bolts will be replaced by yours truly and by Mike Fisher. He's the very laid-back Mike that many of you are confusing me, the monster asshole dickhead- all terms that, in the Universal Translator, come out as "Someone so unconcerned about being popular and sucking up to the dig-ME scene that he's willing to take a stand." Don't do Mr. Fisher such a disservice as taking out your frustrated angst on him.. he has said many times that it ain't his fight, and is the Dr. Goodwhack who originally said to me that the lot of ya wasn't worth rope nor water. He just won't waste the time to say it to you in person, and listen to all this chin music and jaw-jacking.
That Mike F. fella is damn good people and a charming gentleman to boot, of course so are you. Well, maybe not so "charming" but definitely good people. Don't worry though, I know your having a lot of fun playing the evil madman so I won't tell anyone.
roninthorne wrote: Since you'd likely sue me for some astronomical figure, and include the cost of your lawyers, I'd really have no option but to kill you, instead, once I got a look at you in court and had my court-appointed attorney find out your home address. Not sure how, but I'd probably be able to figure something out while you were hunched over your computer, pounding pud with one hand while spewing vitriol on some other deserving asshole, or rabidly replying to this post.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 17, 2009, 12:23 AM)
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munky
Mar 18, 2009, 12:38 AM
Post #42 of 60
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You need to be locked up.
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munky
Mar 18, 2009, 12:53 AM
Post #43 of 60
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As I've said before, you need to be locked up due to your irrational tone and behavior in this incident. I believe I can safely say that I speak for everyone on here that we are saddened by the lack of respect of the unknown party who trampled trails and added to the already present erosion at Franlin. Furthermore, I think everyone agrees that the service, dedication, and love you have for Franklin is admirable and feels undoubtedly indebted to you for your years of service. I would even go so far to say that i respect and can sympathize with you over your love a certain region in which you climb. You clearly have tons of memories and experiences in West Virginia and Rockingham County that have made you fall in love with the area forever. However, the actions you have presently taken have done nothing but hurt your reputation and damaged the area(s) you so deeply care about. When you love something you don't give up on it, you stay the course no matter what because you love it and you know that its better with you on its side supporting it, rather than without you.
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deschamps1000
Mar 20, 2009, 3:28 PM
Post #44 of 60
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roninthorne wrote: Franklin is all yours...
Holalua! We'll take you up on that. We expect you to keep your word.
I'm no longer in Hburg, but if anybody needs organized help maintaining Franklin, contact the JMU Adventure Program. They've organized many trail days in the VA / WVA area.
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dreday3000
Mar 20, 2009, 5:30 PM
Post #45 of 60
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Registered: Jun 15, 2006
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roninthorne wrote: Well, well, well.... First, DrGoBig- Bingo. Not app- you swing back and forth between stroking and backstabbing so fast that I'm starting to chafe on both sides, k? With friends like thee, Judas... Do I own the climbs? Nope... just the hardware... which is all I've taken away. Belly of the Whale needed rebolting... or did you like the added spice of almost 2" of projecting stud possibly snapping your carabiner or digging a nice groove in your flesh in the event of a fall? Keelhauled used a tree that is presently decomposing at the base for an anchor, and was put up with bolts that had since rusted almost in half. Both will be restored, and Keelhauled will actually end at seperate anchors, instead of stemming right to reach BOTW's. Some of the top anchor bolts (like the one on constantly gang-raped Castaways) snapped off with only a quarter-turn of the ratchet while I was attempting to loosen them. Despite the abuse here, I'm glad that you, your gymby friends, or your seventeen year old daughter didn't discover this weakness while toproping or lowering from a lead. (Interesting strategy, BTW- threatening to me while informing an unknown host of internet predators that you might have a teen daughter who travels without you and is actually that stupid... sounds like her biggest danger is Daddy's flapping piehole and failure to teach her to read rock before tossing her out into the real world.) Those bolts will be replaced by yours truly and by Mike Fisher. He's the very laid-back Mike that many of you are confusing me, the monster asshole dickhead- all terms that, in the Universal Translator, come out as "Someone so unconcerned about being popular and sucking up to the dig-ME scene that he's willing to take a stand." Don't do Mr. Fisher such a disservice as taking out your frustrated angst on him.. he has said many times that it ain't his fight, and is the Dr. Goodwhack who originally said to me that the lot of ya wasn't worth rope nor water. He just won't waste the time to say it to you in person, and listen to all this chin music and jaw-jacking. The rock belongs to the folks who purchased it... or are you now going to rationalize about how they don't own it either, especially if you want to climb on it. Self-entitlement is so interesting.... After days of watching (and laughing like hell at) the spectacle of a group so determined to avoid the question of who among you fucked things up in the first place (and I'm sure that some of the responsible parties are the loudest protesters), and listening to the repeatedly rationalizations that you "can't do trailwork (even when I'm not around) because of (my) bad attitude" (I, like the Shadow, apparently have the power to cloud men's minds... not to mention shrinking their already tiny cajones to the size of hydrogen molecules), I've gotta conclude that the majority of you have no interest in finding the culprits when you can join the mob shouting "Burn him... he's a witch!" (Sorry.... you're actually far more stupid than anything I've ever seen on Monthy Python, and using one of their lines to caricature you is actually a disservice to that fine comic troupe.) Hell, that ass-suck lodi-whatthfinever admitted doesn't do trailwork or bring a dog to the crag and still had the colossal stupidity to give me shit about being over the top in my stances on those topics. "I don't stand for anything or anyone but me, Mike! And why should I when I can get so much done on my knees or on all fours? Why do you crag guys have to be so extreme?" Added to this the fact that I am repeatedly being told how I "should have done" things like posting signs, putting up barriers, talking to groups, contacting gyms/schools or those steadfast defenders of your right to bring your dog to the crag, the Access Fund- every one of which I have tried, repeatedly, for the last decade and more- ANYTHING to keep from inconveniencing those of you making a living off my hard work or unable to climb anything harder than a toproped 5.8... well, some further conclusions become inevitable. Since damned few of you are worth the effort, I'm giving you what you want. Franklin is all yours... and you'd best believe that the landowners will learn that in the next 24 hours. The upshot is that YOU HAVE NO MORE EXCUSES. Talk is cheap... if the Big Bad Mike is gone, now what are you going to use to rationalize your failure to balance freedom with responsibility? Either you will now do trailwork, on your own or in groups, or you and all your little posse will have to admit that all those excuses were just that- EXCUSES. Personally, I don't expect to hear anything new from Mr. Fisher in the way of volunteers... but I could be wrong. I have been before... when I thought that more than 10% of climbers from outside WV might be at least 1% smarter and more responsible than the lacquer-huffing, bottle-breaking inbreeds who trash the parking lot on a regular basis. It's all yours, kiddies. Look for the next area to open up in the not too distant future... and look for my name controlling access to ALL the private land where the biggest and best climbs are there, as well as having already been in communication with the NFS, DNR, and DOT about soon-to-come impact, resource problems and abuses on the public lands adjoining. You will NOT make another Franklin. Incidentally- if you think you're going to sue me, you apparently haven't taken a look at what carpenters earn in this part of the world, or paid any attention to the economic crisis engulfing this contry. Not surprising... most of you sound lke hard-core Rush Limbaugh fans, and denial is your main food group. I have about $2,000 (original retail value) in very used climbing gear, tech clothing, and related back copies of magazines, about another $2,000 in heavily-used construction tools, and a few bucks in the bank (I've used most of my $$ to pay for costs of traildays and the previous work/replacements, remember?) Since you'd likely sue me for some astronomical figure, and include the cost of your lawyers, I'd really have no option but to kill you, instead, once I got a look at you in court and had my court-appointed attorney find out your home address. Not sure how, but I'd probably be able to figure something out while you were hunched over your computer, pounding pud with one hand while spewing vitriol on some other deserving asshole, or rabidly replying to this post. Finally, re: offers of "vigilante" responses... BULLSHIT! You wouldn't have the courage to give me a harsh look when we meet, binky, and you know it. Do what ya like, say what ya like about me or my routes. I can still use a few more laughs.
You are an asshole.
-Andre Dahlman
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drumminmachine62
Apr 7, 2009, 2:05 AM
Post #46 of 60
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Registered: Jun 21, 2005
Posts: 52
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I was at Franklin yesterday and as I was topping out a climb what did I see but a parade of nearly a dozen climbers, all of whom looked as if they had never touched a rock before heading up the trail. I wondered to myself where is a group of noobs like this going to climb with all the aforementioned routes chopped?
Later when I walked down the trail to get on some other climbs I stumbled upon the same dozen or so climbers, all trampling around the area directly below castaways and first aid......
Whole lot of good chopping these routes did.
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notapplicable
Apr 7, 2009, 2:34 AM
Post #47 of 60
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Did they have TR anchors set up using trees?
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drumminmachine62
Apr 7, 2009, 2:54 AM
Post #48 of 60
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I didn't stay long enough to see, one person was half way up castaways and the rest were sitting around while the group leader was trying to teach them some kind of safety acronym. I just remember hearing him say "D is for DANGER" like 10 times. Then I just walked away.
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keegan540
Apr 7, 2009, 3:18 AM
Post #49 of 60
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Registered: Apr 3, 2006
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Thanks for bringing some joy into my day! D is for dangler...
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bandycoot
Apr 7, 2009, 3:34 AM
Post #50 of 60
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Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 2028
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roninthorne wrote: You claim how hard it is to put up with my personality or attitude. You're all so aggro when online, but you're such incredible pussies that you cling to the excuse of some 45-yr-old man with an artificial knee and a bad back being the reason you can't come and do trailwork? Even when you show up and I'm not there? Lame, limp-dick, sag-ass posers, the lot of ya. If you spent half the energy working on the trails that you do dissing me and making excuses why you can't and it's my fault, I'd never need to do any work at Franklin. What's funniest is that half of you would lick John Sherman's bag just to shake his hand and get hinm to autograph your copy of Stone Crusade... and his attitudes are exactly the same as mine. Before he sold out to the mining industry, he was one of my heroes, along with Ed Abbey and Mark Wilford and a lot of the other guys you don't hear about anymore because they didn't give two shits what the world thought of them if they were determined to do what is right. If who I am or what I've done pisses you off so badly, come on out to Franklin for the next traildays in June, and express your outrage in person. Or admit that, unlke me, you're all talk, just a hot, sphincter-scented breeze blowing through the internet and across the forums of RC.com...
Do you realize how aggressive this is in response to about 4-5 hostile posts out of MANY? Most of this thread was a reasonable discussion about the issues and personal opinions. You're definitely the contributing to the "sphincter-scented breeze blowing through the internet" right now. You're criticizing people for criticizing you for not being in the AF even though you're the only one who brought it up. I could go on and on and on. Get the chip off your shoulder, realize that if you really cared about the area you'd get more help with the trail repair days, etc if you didn't act like spoiled entitled brat, and treated other people and their opinions with respect. It's sad that so many people who are stewards of the land let their egos become mixed into their work. Sounds like you have a good long term plan for the area, and many people can actually see at least part of your point of view, but stop acting like a child. It just hurts everyone... If you didn't want people to post aggressively, in your first post you would have described plans to replace bolts like you did in later posts, etc. Instead, like a drama queen, you posted an inflammatory post not giving your whole side of the issue and then blew up. Brilliant.
Josh
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