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tube_dude
Apr 9, 2009, 4:21 AM
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No offense, to CM and his supertopo guidebooks, he's filling a niche, obviously talented and smart, but what what are his guidebooks doing for climbing's future?
Am I the only one who thinks (super)topos that tell you what size piece to put in what crack, what size gear you'll need for a belay, and how to surmount difficulties along the way sort of overdoing it? Isn't part of the lure of climbing the adventure? And pulling out a topo while climbing and looking to see what piece you should plug in isn't adventure. I understand the desire to gather info, and get prepared, but they seem a little much. And the really scary thing, and the reason for my post, is that some climbers I've met simply can't function without them. It's like a dependence. They want the crux etc. mapped out. I'd say "to each his own", but some of these climbers are the kind who drag areas down to the lowest common denomenator (retrobolting mindset... make it "safe"). Anyone else share this opinion? or shed any light on it to change my mind?
(This post was edited by tube_dude on Apr 9, 2009, 4:27 AM)
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meahtots
Apr 9, 2009, 4:35 AM
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i think if you want adventure, then go find adventure. that may be by not reading supertopo, or that may be by finding more obscure routes, or that may be an FA.
its not an epidemic, its a convenience.
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tube_dude
Apr 9, 2009, 4:40 AM
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The question was not how to find adventure...
What are his guidebooks doing for climbing's future?
(This post was edited by tube_dude on Apr 9, 2009, 4:41 AM)
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ShibbyShane
Apr 9, 2009, 4:59 AM
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Well, as a beginning climber (beginner defined as <2 years experience by some other thread around here), I have to say that I find the supertopo books to be extremely useful. Having a description tell you what size pro you need on a given route is great because, well, I may not have a huge rack with triples of every size. That description could save me the hastle of getting on something that I figure out I can't protect half-way up. And knowing that the crux is on the second pitch or halfway through the first pitch is nice so you know to conserve energy, push through the section before trying to place pro, etc etc.
As far as I can recall, there are very few, if any, times where the books will say "this is how you pull through the crux" or "place size X cam here" (except for your aforementioned comment about saving certain sizes for anchors).
Also, as far as the books saying to save certain sizes for anchors, I again find that to be helpful; as a new climber I can't adapt as easily to situations that I'm not prepared for, such as getting up to an anchor spot and not having the right size pieces!
I do, however, understand your concern. I don't want every handhold on every route to be mapped out to memorize before getting on the rock. That's the whole fun of climbing outside! You gotta figure out where the hell to go.
I still say that the supertopo books are good for a number of reasons. Especially after trying to decipher some of the Falcon guidebooks my friends have, haha.
My 2 cents.
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seeds
Apr 9, 2009, 5:01 AM
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what are link cams doing to climbings future? now any asshole can just plug and chug..... whats the point of your question? are you suggesting a guide book is going to comprimise climbings future. probably not. it gets people stoked on getting on a route. climbings a pretty individual thing and if someone needs the crux beta for serenity crack to get on it, good for them, its an awesome climb. you can choose to use it yourself or not. plenty of adventure left in climbing homey...the scariest thing about the books are peoples dependance on them? first of all, you can only depend on them for places that are documented in them, yosemite for example....and if anything they make that circus waaaay safer by eliminating problems in an area with a high climber concentration. the sheeple need a shepherd
(This post was edited by seeds on Apr 9, 2009, 5:06 AM)
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ryanb
Apr 9, 2009, 6:18 AM
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There have always been n00b's in this sport, history just doesn't remember them as well. My dad was an average climber in the alps and California in the 60's and has told me quite a few stories from the less glamorous half of golden age climbing. Clubs and guides played a bigger role back then ...I think many casual climbers were content to climb primarily on sierra club outings etc. Now many are willing to buy a rack of cams and a couple of books and give trad leading a go.
People have always and will always make this sport as adventurous or as safe as they choose. The availability of good route info, trip reports, weather forecasts etc lets those at the cutting edge hang it our on harder and harder things just as it lets the rest of us stay safe on harder things.
The golden age for us is now and If you are concerned about areas being dragged down then you need to lead and inspire by example and educate through good natured camaraderie.
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granite_grrl
Apr 9, 2009, 11:27 AM
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Of all the things that are draging climbing down, you choose the supertopo guides to focus on.
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PJA7
Apr 9, 2009, 12:24 PM
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If people want adventure in climbing and think supertopo will take this away from them, then they don't have to use it. Personally I don't really care about adventure in climbing. I'm not trying to climb in an environment where I could actually get seriously injured, and I don't know why this appeals to some of you. However, I don't go around ranting about how you're all ruining the climbing world by making climbing look dangerous and making outsiders more opposed to it.
I think that the problem of people retrobolting every route in the sake of safety is a separate problem and not caused by the use or not use of topos.
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GeneralZon
Apr 9, 2009, 12:31 PM
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To each their own. If the ST books really bother you so much, hit the crag without it then. Take minimal gear and have the adventure of a lifetime.
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j_ung
Apr 9, 2009, 1:23 PM
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tube_dude wrote: The question was not how to find adventure... What are his guidebooks doing for climbing's future?
Supertopo guides are doing absolutely nothing for -- nor to -- MY climbing future. As long as I get to climb how I want, I don't care at all what other people do.
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j_ung
Apr 9, 2009, 1:26 PM
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And actually, since becoming unemployed, I'd have to say my own climbing future looks pretty good. 
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dlintz
Apr 9, 2009, 1:42 PM
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j_ung wrote: tube_dude wrote: The question was not how to find adventure... What are his guidebooks doing for climbing's future? Supertopo guides are doing absolutely nothing for -- nor to -- MY climbing future. As long as I get to climb how I want, I don't care at all what other people do.
Well said.
d.
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petsfed
Apr 9, 2009, 2:03 PM
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tube_dude wrote: what size gear you'll need for a belay
Isn't this standard? If an anchor requires certain pieces or it simply will not exist, it seems reasonable to me to at least say "save some hand sized pieces for the belay" or "bring a #4 friend for the belay". If I absolutely must have a #5 camalot for the belay, I'd kinda like to know that before I get to the belay, you know?
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olderic
Apr 9, 2009, 2:23 PM
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ryanb wrote: There have always been n00b's in this sport, history just doesn't remember them as well..
Exactly. I can remember being the greenish of noobs at the Gunks 35 years ago and getting exact beta (not called that) from 5 different people for a 5.easy pitch studded with fixed pins. Beta on the moves, the gear, the belay. Everything. The Supertopo guides are just tools. Maybe more efficient then what had been available but nothing revolutionary. No one is forcing you to use them - choose your own level of adventure and climb for yourself.
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brotherbbock
Apr 9, 2009, 2:42 PM
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seeds wrote: what are link cams doing to climbings future? now any asshole can just plug and chug.....
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billcoe_
Apr 9, 2009, 2:57 PM
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tube_dude wrote: No offense, to CM and his supertopo guidebooks, he's filling a niche, obviously talented and smart, but what what are his guidebooks doing for climbing's future? Am I the only one who thinks (super)topos that tell you what size piece to put in what crack, what size gear you'll need for a belay, and how to surmount difficulties along the way sort of overdoing it? Isn't part of the lure of climbing the adventure? And pulling out a topo while climbing and looking to see what piece you should plug in isn't adventure. I understand the desire to gather info, and get prepared, but they seem a little much. And the really scary thing, and the reason for my post, is that some climbers I've met simply can't function without them. It's like a dependence. They want the crux etc. mapped out. I'd say "to each his own", but some of these climbers are the kind who drag areas down to the lowest common denomenator (retrobolting mindset... make it "safe"). Anyone else share this opinion? or shed any light on it to change my mind?
This was debated endlessly back when topos were first being bandied about the valley. Certainly by the time Meyers loose leaf topo book had come out it was a tired discussion. Here we are 35 or so years later.....still discussing it.
The correct answer is: Yes.
You're welcome!
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sidepull
Apr 9, 2009, 3:10 PM
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I don't think you (the OP) are really concerned about climbing's future but its present. In the present moment, how does supertopo impact the level of adventure. If you were concerned about the future then you would advocate against any write up or description of a route (please see the first chapter of Jack Turner's "The Abstract Wild").
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your emphasis on the sense of adventure (I prefer magic) that one experiences during climbing. But I also appreciate history and understanding how things develop. History helps to secure a future for things, deleting history in the hope of retaining a false sense of adventure in the present should not be a sport-level decision but an individual decision (as other's advocated above). In other words, if ignorance is bliss for you, then don't log on to supertopo. But don't advocate for universal ignorance in the name of pursuing your own sense of adventure.
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sidepull
Apr 9, 2009, 3:11 PM
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PS - I thought this post was going to be about generational differences between supertopo members and rc members (e.g. those old crabby hard guys vs. beanie wearing chest shaving know-it-all's).
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seeds
Apr 9, 2009, 4:03 PM
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brotherbbock wrote: seeds wrote: what are link cams doing to climbings future? now any asshole can just plug and chug..... Dude have you used link cams? you cant just plug and chug you still have to know what you are doing. yes they have more range than say your average C4 but you can't just throw a link cam anywhere and think it will hold you on a nice big whipper. i personally like link cams for use at belay stations where you might not always have the exact right piece to make a solid anchor. i just think that they have nothing to do with the topic at hand. yes there are assholes out there plugging away but it is not the fault of omega pacific.
i was being cynical......
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angry
Apr 9, 2009, 4:06 PM
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All I've ever wanted from a book is how to get to the route and how to get down. A hint here or there is nice if it helps keep you on route.
I prefer not to take pages up with me but I have done it. Sometimes it's even helped.
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rangerrob
Apr 9, 2009, 4:09 PM
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Doesn't the whole notion of a guidebook remove the adventure as well? But really, who cares? If someone wants to have it all mapped out for them who are you to tell them they are wrong. Just go climb and forget what everyone else is doing.
People said the same thing about sticky rubber, then about chalk, then about cams. Why are you not complaining about them?
RR
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brotherbbock
Apr 9, 2009, 4:14 PM
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seeds wrote: brotherbbock wrote: seeds wrote: what are link cams doing to climbings future? now any asshole can just plug and chug..... Dude have you used link cams? you cant just plug and chug you still have to know what you are doing. yes they have more range than say your average C4 but you can't just throw a link cam anywhere and think it will hold you on a nice big whipper. i personally like link cams for use at belay stations where you might not always have the exact right piece to make a solid anchor. i just think that they have nothing to do with the topic at hand. yes there are assholes out there plugging away but it is not the fault of omega pacific. i was being cynical......
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fresh
Apr 9, 2009, 4:31 PM
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you gotta let people decide what's most important to them--the summit or the process? everyone sits somewhere on the spectrum. but significant advances in the sport are gonna be made only by people who search for new territory off the map. and if the next generation cuts their teeth on routes with supertopos, so be it. that's how progress is made.
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