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desertwanderer81


Apr 22, 2009, 9:46 AM
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Daughters vs. Sons
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So I was at the local crag this weekend, and there was a nuclear family there! Mom, dad, and two girls aged 12/13ish. Anyhow the girls tried climbing but quickly became scared and worried when they hit a little difficulty and asked to be let down. Something about this rather bothered me.

I mentioned it to my friend and he said, "Well if I had daughters, I probably wouldn't push them either."

I don't know, as far as I am concerned, a parent should push their child, son or daughter, to their maximum potential in everything. However it seams like this view is very popular in our society.

What do you all think?


robbovius


Apr 22, 2009, 10:43 AM
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first off, dude, its only climbing. its really NOT THAT IMPORTANT. The point of bringing your kids climbing(if they aren't specifically into climbing) is to introduce them to it (so thaey can see if they like it)and try to have a good time. if they get scared, and don't want to try to manage the fear on their own (of my 3 kids, I have one who's naturally good at that, another not so much, and one in between) pushing them into the realm of greater fear simply isn't worthwhile. you can try the "just one more move" motivation, but if they really want to come down, you let them come down.

No point in driving them into panic. for anyone to enjoy climbing, they really have to come to it on their own, on their own terms.

I think you were reading into what the parents were doing, and dont' have an accurate concept of the complexity that parenting actually involves. How do you know that that wasn't the maximum potential of those two tween girls, on that climb, on that day?

you're friend was either making a joke, or is a rampant chauvinist.

why are you letting what other people do, that has no tangible effect on you whatsoever, bother you so much?


desertwanderer81


Apr 22, 2009, 10:49 AM
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First off, the girls were more than capable of going a lot further with a little encouragement. I was next to them and paused for a minute to give one of them a little advice/encouragement and she did well for quite a while but as soon as I was gone she allowed herself to get anxious again. These were kids who had their own harnesses and their parents were leading trad with well worn cams....so I'd assume that this wasn't their first trip out.

I think my friend was actually being honest compared to most people. It was said in terms of, "I just wouldn't have the heart to push a daughter that hard." You see this kind of stuff all of the time outside of the climbing world. Many parents push their sons much harder than their daughters in the realm of achievement, both academically and physically.


robbovius


Apr 22, 2009, 11:03 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote:
First off, the girls were more than capable of going a lot further with a little encouragement. I was next to them and paused for a minute to give one of them a little advice/encouragement and she did well for quite a while but as soon as I was gone she allowed herself to get anxious again. These were kids who had their own harnesses and their parents were leading trad with well worn cams....so I'd assume that this wasn't their first trip out.
ahh okay. didn't have the up front uh, backstory (oxymoron?).

still, its only climbing.

I dispute the assertion that some intangible "many" parents push their daughters harder than their sons, and I speak here from my own obserbvations and experience having raised my kids thru HS, into college (for both my daughters, my son is still in HS), and having been involved in all their scolastic and extra scholastic activities, and with other parents in those activities. I cannot recall any specific parent pushing a son or daughter more than another, all were encouraged to achieve as best they could.

and again, the girls might have had their own harnesses, and the parent might have been well experienced trad climbers, but that doesn't neccesarioly mean that the daughters had been out more than that once, or that they were into it at all or were just tagging along humoring the parents.

- trust me, I'm an expert, been there, got the bored expressinos and rolling eyes, dig?

you're making assumptions from outside that family, without actually knowing. it may not have been their first trip out, but it may have, or maybe their second, or maybe those girls are just more naturally risk averse, or, whatever.

one simply does not know.

In reply to:
I think my friend was actually being honest compared to most people. It was said in terms of, "I just wouldn't have the heart to push a daughter that hard."

really, which "most people"? anybody you know personally? who?

In reply to:
You see this kind of stuff all of the time outside of the climbing world. Many parents push their sons much harder than their daughters in the realm of achievement, both academically and physically.

really? my oservations and experience as a parent over the last 21 years is absolutely incongruous with your assertions. are your assertions based ion parents you know or your own parenting experience?

again, what "many parents"? who? anybody you know? what's your experience been?

if anything in this world irks me to distraction, its these sorts of generalizations and stereotypes about parenting, born of baseless and pessimistic conventional wisdoms.


(This post was edited by robbovius on Apr 22, 2009, 11:09 AM)


kimmyt


Apr 22, 2009, 11:14 AM
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Its worse when you see a parent pushing their child to tears because they think they are 'encouraging' them.

I have utmost respect for parents that climb (well) with their children, it's hard to push someone just right without going over the line.

Also, if these kids had their own harnesses and their parents looked like they were capable climbers, ever think that the parents might know THEIR kids better than you know their kids? Maybe when the kids asked to be let down, they respected their child's ability to make that decision despite the fact that theoretically the child could have gone another move.

But then, I don't have kids so probably don't know what I'm talking about.


Partner macherry


Apr 22, 2009, 11:47 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote:
First off, the girls were more than capable of going a lot further with a little encouragement. I was next to them and paused for a minute to give one of them a little advice/encouragement and she did well for quite a while but as soon as I was gone she allowed herself to get anxious again. These were kids who had their own harnesses and their parents were leading trad with well worn cams....so I'd assume that this wasn't their first trip out.

I think my friend was actually being honest compared to most people. It was said in terms of, "I just wouldn't have the heart to push a daughter that hard." You see this kind of stuff all of the time outside of the climbing world. Many parents push their sons much harder than their daughters in the realm of achievement, both academically and physically.

personal experience here. i've taken both my kids out climbng....boy and girl. I"m not a pusher. if the kids are into it fine...if not that's okay too. parents know their own kids. my son never took to climbing. My daughter, however, likes to climb. she's had tears, get's frustrated and i know when to encourage and when to let her down.

my husband and I parent both kids the same, push when needed....in all aspects of life.


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Apr 22, 2009, 11:51 AM
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I don't know about the situation being described, but it pains me when I see a father using shaming/trivialization tactics to push his son further. Seems that happens more to the boys that girls(at least the shame one; I guess my own father quite often trivialized my efforts, but I don't think it was in an effort push me further).

People aren't perfect, that's for sure.


lena_chita
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Apr 22, 2009, 11:53 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote:
So I was at the local crag this weekend, and there was a nuclear family there! Mom, dad, and two girls aged 12/13ish. Anyhow the girls tried climbing but quickly became scared and worried when they hit a little difficulty and asked to be let down. Something about this rather bothered me.

Why? What exactly was bothering you? You've never seen people getting scared when they try climbing?

I can tell you that I have seen children, youths and adults of BOTH genders get really scared trying to climb for the first time a toprope climb in the gym.

In fact, I have, on several occasions, had to climb up half-way up the wall, hug/support a scared child, and help them come down b/c they go up a little bit, get scared, and then refuse to let go of the wall and sit back in the harness to be lowered.

With a 12yo you can usually talk then through it from the ground. With an 8-9yo, once they get panicky, they usually can't follow instructions of the belayer on the ground.

desertwanderer81 wrote:
I mentioned it to my friend and he said, "Well if I had daughters, I probably wouldn't push them either."

I don't know if your friend meant that he wouldn't push DAUGHTERS, but would push SONS... if that is how he sees it, then yes, it is sexist. Not unheard of, of course. Quite common, in fact.

desertwanderer81 wrote:
I don't know, as far as I am concerned, a parent should push their child, son or daughter, to their maximum potential in everything. However it seams like this view is very popular in our society.

How much you should "push" your children is up for debate, and would surely depend on the child as an individual. Not depend on their gender per se...

I would disagree with a blanket statement that parents SHOULD push their children to "maximum potential".

First of all, how do you define "maximum potential"?

My daughter has a great potential as a climber. Does it mean that I should push her to climb if she doesn't want to? Nope!

She also has great potential as a gymnast, dancer, figure skater, skier, artist, and a lot of other things. Should I push her to the maximum in EVERY activity? Nope! the way I see it, it is my responsibility as a parent to INTRODUCE these activities. To expose her to a variety of things, so she can find out for herself what she likes and doesn't like. And THEN it is my responsibility to support her in the activity she chooses, NOT to push her "to her maximum" in an activity she doesn't enjoy.


Being a parent I also realize that sometimes children are resistant to trying new things, so there HAS to be some push, sometimes. But that is different than "pushing to the maximum ability".

When my then-6yo son tried skiing for the first time, he hated it. I made him go for 8 weeks, b/c we already paid for lessons. By the end of it, he got used to skiing, and 4 years later, he is proud to tell every one who would listen that he can ski double-black-diamonds (O.K., they really aren't, by Colorado standard, but the point is, he really likes it).

This is what I call "the initial push"-- I made him stick with 8 lessons, but he was told that after 8 lessons, he had a choice-- to continue skiing, or to never do it again in his life. he decided that he didn't hate it, after all. On the other hand, I am NOT continuously pushing him to get better at skiing. Skiing is a recreational activity for him, he doesn't want to do more than just ski down the slope, and that's it. So I am not coaching him in every move, making him do things that he is not comfortable with, or forcing him to take continuing lessons with private instructors to improve his skiing technique. he may not reach his "maximum potential" in skiing, but he is enjoying it, and I consider my mission accomplished.





Now, your second point is, I think, that in this society there is a gender disparity in terms of how much parents push their sons, vs. how much they push their daughters.

Yes, there is a disparity. I would say that people in general push their sons in DIFFERENT ways than they push their daughters. Also, people tend to push their children into different ACTIVITIES depending on their gender.

A boy is more likely to be "goaded" and prodded into things, and the girl is more likely to be gently talked into something. Boys might be pushed to swimming and karate, and girls might be signed up for dance and gymnastics. And so on.

Should it be that way? no... but...


I firmly believe that children should be exposed to the same activities (the initial exposure/push) regardless of gender. I also believe that they should be encouraged to pursue the activities they enjoy regardless of how "gender-suitable" that activity is considered to be by the population at large. Boys should be exposed to, and encouraged to take dancing lessons, if that's what interests them, and girls should be encouraged to join the school robotics team, or whatever.

But on the other hand, I DO see in my own children that a lot of differences are hard-wired.

I was a firm believer that boys should be allowed to play with dolls, too, so when my son was about 15 months old, my Mom bought him a nice doll for Christmas. Fifteen months old, that's still pretty young, before he had a chance to be exposed to "societal norms", before he heard any jokes from peers about playing with dolls, etc. etc. It was a boy doll, too... He NEVER played with it. Never showed the slightest inclination, or interest, to play with any of the dolls that girls his age had. Just wanted nothing to do with dolls, ever.

My daughter, being the second child, had plenty of cars, trucks and trains to play with. But the way she played with them was dramatically different than the way my son played with them. From an early age, D's idea of playing was to make the cars zoom around and collide, with each other, with dinosaurs, etc.-- the ambulance and the fire truck would come rushing along, noise, sirens, the whole nine yards. My daughter tried NURSING those cars. Yes, she was talking to them and pretending that they were BABIES. She didn't have any dolls around the first couple years, you see... so she wrapped a train engine in a towel and pretended that it was a DOLL.

Being the second child, my daughter also had a lot of gender-neutral and "boyish" clothes when she was a baby and toddler. Hand-me-downs make sense... but as soon as she was able to point and indicate what she wanted, she started picking her clothes, and they were PINK. or purple...

Where do things like that come from? We are talking about 2-3 yold child who had not yet been exposed to TV, to pre-school, etc.

Somehow, even though I am giving them equal opportunities and equal activities to try, their choices fall along the gender lines. It isn't to say that if I were to have more kids their choices wouldn't be different and not so in line with 'traditional gender preferences". After all, I hated frilly dresses and pink anything as a kid, and was in many ways not a "typical girl", more of a tomboy, while my sister was very much a girly girl. I KNOW that in-gender variation is huge and any example of a "girly girl" can be met by counter-example of another female.

But I have seen many kids now, whose parents have been of the same mind as I, in terms of trying to be gender neutral in their offerings of clothes, activities, etc. to their kids -- and somehow the kids still end up with more girly activities for girls, and more "boyish" preferences for boys.

To me, it seems very clear that some of the gender differences get specified/influenced/affected so early, and maybe even unconsciously, by people who are trying to raise the kids, that even when consciously attempting a gender-neutral approach to parenting we still end up treating sons and daughters differently.


desertwanderer81


Apr 22, 2009, 11:54 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote:
I don't know about the situation being described, but it pains me when I see a father using shaming/trivialization tactics to push his son further. Seems that happens more to the boys that girls(at least the shame one; I guess my own father quite often trivialized my efforts, but I don't think it was in an effort push me further).

People aren't perfect, that's for sure.

Yeah, that wasn't really what I'm talking about but I agree that I dislike when I see the "shaming" tactics too. I was mostly talking about the "I wanna come down daddy" and then the "OK" rather than "I know you can do this! I believe in you!!" response.

I'm sorry that your father trivlized your efforts. I guess I am lucky in that both of my parents were always incredibly supportive no matter what I did.


clausti


Apr 22, 2009, 11:59 AM
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In reply to:
I mentioned it to my friend and he said, "Well if I had daughters, I probably wouldn't push them either."

robbovius wrote:
you're friend was either making a joke, or is a rampant chauvinist.

? my impression from the text only is that he said "daughters" because "daughters" were who was getting pushed in that scene. I don't know what I actually hear anything sinister in that comment, but more knowledge of the friend in question might clear it up.

but I hate hate HATE hearing parents push, command, shame kids into climbing. I've run into it a few times, most recently at the Red when the 8 year old boy on the climb next to us was sobbing by the 3rd bolt of a top rope. i mean, i hate it worse when I hear fathers using feminizing terms or unflattering comparison to girls (your sister did it!) to push their sons, but generally I just hate being around parents who push their kids.


clausti


Apr 22, 2009, 12:07 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote:
Yeah, that wasn't really what I'm talking about but I agree that I dislike when I see the "shaming" tactics too. I was mostly talking about the "I wanna come down daddy" and then the "OK" rather than "I know you can do this! I believe in you!!" response.

even as an adult, i get furious (and feel twice the failure) if my belayer doesn't just fucking put me down or take when i ask. if i thought i could keep going, i would. i have had some raucous fights with my then boyfriend now husband about it. i have no confidence in a belayer who won't take when i ask. my lead head gets shot.

and 13 is old enough to say what you want. and if she says she's ready to come down, then maybe, just maybe, acknowledge enough self determination in her to realize that maybe she fucking wants down, geez.

even when i was working as belayer-for-membership at a gym, i never asked more than once. i will give all the encouragement i can think of while the kid is climbing or even hanging, but once they say down, it's down.


tavs


Apr 22, 2009, 12:39 PM
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Speaking as a daughter...I was most definitely pushed in sports (I was encouraged in school too, but school's something I've always loved so pushing wasn't ever necessary). My father was involved in sports his entire life and it was a natural for me to start as well. I was also introduced to and encouraged to try other activities as well-dance lessons and cheerleading, for example--and was eventually asked to choose among too many activities. The sports stuck; the "typical young girl activities" did not. I wasn't interested.

At times, the pushing--and his overall attitude towards my playing--led to knockdown, blowout fights, with me banning him from ever coming to another game of mine again. At many other times, his pushing got me to move beyond my comfort level, to try harder than I was willing to push myself, and in the end to do things I didn't know I wanted to or could do.

My sister is about 6 years younger and she was also started on sports from pretty young. But she was never all that interested in any of it, and my dad's approach with her was much more encouragement, much less pushing. His way of dealing with each of us had nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with our personalities. I responded to his pushing--usually--by stepping up, becoming more stubborn and determined to prove I could do it. My sister responded by shutting down. Bottom line--you gotta know your kid(s).

When and how to push me has been an issue with my husband. Unlike clausti, I thrive on and respond well to a certain amount of "are you sure you want to take there? are you sure you're ready to be lowered? you don't want to give it one more go?" Just as my dad had to figure out where the line was with me and my sister, my husband has had the pleasure of spending 8+ years figuring out where the line is for pushing me in climbing. Bottom line--you gotta know your spouse :)


granite_grrl


Apr 22, 2009, 1:17 PM
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tavs wrote:
When and how to push me has been an issue with my husband. Unlike clausti, I thrive on and respond well to a certain amount of "are you sure you want to take there? are you sure you're ready to be lowered? you don't want to give it one more go?" Just as my dad had to figure out where the line was with me and my sister, my husband has had the pleasure of spending 8+ years figuring out where the line is for pushing me in climbing. Bottom line--you gotta know your spouse :)
There are different degrees of pushing. I have had my husband tell me to make sure I was certain I wanted to back off a gear lead, don't have any regrets. When I did decide to back off I was certain the climb was beyond me....and in fact it ended up that the 5.9+ that we were getting on was almost beyond my husband's abilities too. Shocked ....so yeah, I was happy that I bailed, but I'm glad I gave it my best effort.

If someone insists that I should keep going, and refuses to take then it pisses me off too. I get the whole lack of self confidence thing too because they make me feel like I should have been able to do the climb, but I couldn't.

There's a lot of shades of grey out there.


lena_chita
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Apr 22, 2009, 1:30 PM
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granite_grrl wrote:
tavs wrote:
When and how to push me has been an issue with my husband. Unlike clausti, I thrive on and respond well to a certain amount of "are you sure you want to take there? are you sure you're ready to be lowered? you don't want to give it one more go?" Just as my dad had to figure out where the line was with me and my sister, my husband has had the pleasure of spending 8+ years figuring out where the line is for pushing me in climbing. Bottom line--you gotta know your spouse :)
There are different degrees of pushing. I have had my husband tell me to make sure I was certain I wanted to back off a gear lead, don't have any regrets. When I did decide to back off I was certain the climb was beyond me....and in fact it ended up that the 5.9+ that we were getting on was almost beyond my husband's abilities too. Shocked ....so yeah, I was happy that I bailed, but I'm glad I gave it my best effort.

If someone insists that I should keep going, and refuses to take then it pisses me off too. I get the whole lack of self confidence thing too because they make me feel like I should have been able to do the climb, but I couldn't.

There's a lot of shades of grey out there.

Exactly! Which is why I say that how much 'pushing' is appropriate for any child depends more on the child him/herself, than on their gender.

And I daresay the parents of those two girls probably knew their girls a tiny bit better than desertwanderer, and were in a better position to decide on how to proceed with their daughter's request to be lowered...


desertwanderer81


Apr 22, 2009, 1:59 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
tavs wrote:
When and how to push me has been an issue with my husband. Unlike clausti, I thrive on and respond well to a certain amount of "are you sure you want to take there? are you sure you're ready to be lowered? you don't want to give it one more go?" Just as my dad had to figure out where the line was with me and my sister, my husband has had the pleasure of spending 8+ years figuring out where the line is for pushing me in climbing. Bottom line--you gotta know your spouse :)
There are different degrees of pushing. I have had my husband tell me to make sure I was certain I wanted to back off a gear lead, don't have any regrets. When I did decide to back off I was certain the climb was beyond me....and in fact it ended up that the 5.9+ that we were getting on was almost beyond my husband's abilities too. Shocked ....so yeah, I was happy that I bailed, but I'm glad I gave it my best effort.

If someone insists that I should keep going, and refuses to take then it pisses me off too. I get the whole lack of self confidence thing too because they make me feel like I should have been able to do the climb, but I couldn't.

There's a lot of shades of grey out there.

Exactly! Which is why I say that how much 'pushing' is appropriate for any child depends more on the child him/herself, than on their gender.

And I daresay the parents of those two girls probably knew their girls a tiny bit better than desertwanderer, and were in a better position to decide on how to proceed with their daughter's request to be lowered...

The one who I was climbing next to seamed to do very well when I gave her a few encouraging words and a bit of advice. The kid was apreciative of it.

But I am sure parents never get into a rut with their judgements of their own children and never fail to acknoledge when they change and their needs change.

I'm not saying that I know better, however my observation was that these specific kids did well with encouragement.


clausti


Apr 22, 2009, 2:18 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
tavs wrote:
When and how to push me has been an issue with my husband. Unlike clausti, I thrive on and respond well to a certain amount of "are you sure you want to take there? are you sure you're ready to be lowered? you don't want to give it one more go?" Just as my dad had to figure out where the line was with me and my sister, my husband has had the pleasure of spending 8+ years figuring out where the line is for pushing me in climbing. Bottom line--you gotta know your spouse :)
There are different degrees of pushing. I have had my husband tell me to make sure I was certain I wanted to back off a gear lead, don't have any regrets. When I did decide to back off I was certain the climb was beyond me....and in fact it ended up that the 5.9+ that we were getting on was almost beyond my husband's abilities too. Shocked ....so yeah, I was happy that I bailed, but I'm glad I gave it my best effort.

If someone insists that I should keep going, and refuses to take then it pisses me off too. I get the whole lack of self confidence thing too because they make me feel like I should have been able to do the climb, but I couldn't.

There's a lot of shades of grey out there.

Exactly! Which is why I say that how much 'pushing' is appropriate for any child depends more on the child him/herself, than on their gender.

And I daresay the parents of those two girls probably knew their girls a tiny bit better than desertwanderer, and were in a better position to decide on how to proceed with their daughter's request to be lowered...

The one who I was climbing next to seamed to do very well when I gave her a few encouraging words and a bit of advice. The kid was apreciative of it.

But I am sure parents never get into a rut with their judgements of their own children and never fail to acknoledge when they change and their needs change.

I'm not saying that I know better, however my observation was that these specific kids did well with encouragement.

alternately, you were embarassing her, so she didn't protest to you. or, she sensed your disapproval and, being a nice kid and a people pleaser like so many 13 year old girls, she tried her hardest while you were watching (and then cried when she still failed. or, she thought you were cute and tried extra hard because she wanted to impress you. or maybe she'd just started her period, and realized she needed let down STAT.

basically, you have no idea.


desertwanderer81


Apr 22, 2009, 2:27 PM
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Re: [clausti] Daughters vs. Sons [In reply to]
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I'll have you know that I have never had the problem of people finding me cute!!

But your points are well made.


tavs


Apr 22, 2009, 3:25 PM
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Re: [desertwanderer81] Daughters vs. Sons [In reply to]
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There's the "outsider" factor. Some kids respond better (or alternately, even worse) to encouragement/pushing when it comes from someone other than their parents. One of the only times I remember my sister trying hard in soccer (and acting like she gave a sh*t) was when she had a crush on her coach.


desertwanderer81


Apr 22, 2009, 3:38 PM
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Re: [tavs] Daughters vs. Sons [In reply to]
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That's an interesting psycological effect. One I had not taken into effect. I'd imagine that the person giving the encouragement makes a big difference. I'd guess a lot of kids tend to tune out their parents! Esp the pre-teen/teen ages.

One thing I know for certain, is that I never say a word while a GF (or BF) climbs! I just keep my mouth shut and let her do her thing, for better or worse. Maybe other people have different ideas on this subject, but I find for me that it avoids a lot of pain!

On a side note, if someone tries to enchourage me, I'm only going to take it possitively if I think of them as a better climber than I.


lena_chita
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Apr 22, 2009, 3:45 PM
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Re: [tavs] Daughters vs. Sons [In reply to]
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tavs wrote:
There's the "outsider" factor. Some kids respond better (or alternately, even worse) to encouragement/pushing when it comes from someone other than their parents.

SOOO true, LOL. My kids usually do great with teachers/coaches, and save their most spectacular meltdowns for me.


Partner macherry


Apr 22, 2009, 4:26 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Daughters vs. Sons [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
tavs wrote:
There's the "outsider" factor. Some kids respond better (or alternately, even worse) to encouragement/pushing when it comes from someone other than their parents.

SOOO true, LOL. My kids usually do great with teachers/coaches, and save their most spectacular meltdowns for me.

yes, case in point, i can't convince my daughter to drop into certain steep ski runs, even though i know it's well within her ability. but, if we're out skiing/boarding with other people, it definitely gives her the edge to give it a go.


acacongua


Apr 22, 2009, 7:03 PM
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Re: [macherry] Daughters vs. Sons [In reply to]
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Kids are interested in what their friends are interested in (or in this case, when someone other than the parents take notice). Nothing is that exciting with just the parents.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Apr 23, 2009, 5:01 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Daughters vs. Sons [In reply to]
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Nice post.

Few comments....

I wanted to go with a “pink free” daughter. I let everyone know that pink-pink-pink-pink-and-pink outfits should not sent to her. A different thread on why I think that, however, I wanted her not to be pink on pink. So of course my sister in law in conspiracy with my mother sent her pink stuff. Her current favorite color – pink. By which to say, despite parents providing a specific environment, extended social networks have an impact.

The second thing is that each parent screws their child up in their own way. I know my kids are going to have issues directly related to who I am as a person. It happened to me, it happens to all of us. We screw our children up. Both of our children have a motor that doesn’t quit. This is because as parents we have chosen to do physical activities. Lots of them. And use them as a parenting tool (“your being squirrelly – go run outside”). A friend with children of similar ages doesn’t like to see them “get pink” in the face. Not surprisingly , her children get tired of activities faster. Her children are already approaching weight issues, whereas mine are very fit. My kids, however, need that exercise or that energy gets destructive and fast.

Which is to say, I saw a similar scene to the OP in a gym. A mother (not a climber) was “encouraging” her children. Her daughters were both on the wall expressing doubts on their abilities. What struck me and my wife was not that they were flailing but the words they chose to express their failure. If you took the words and played them back, you couldn’t tell they the activity they were doing. The daughters were full of failure before even trying. The mother while directly stating that they could do it, in the same sentence used word and tone to communicate the opposite. I remarked to my wife about how there was a whole lifetime of issues in that one scene. She said “yeah, with a mother like that everyone would get self esteem issues”.


robbovius


Apr 23, 2009, 6:08 AM
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Re: [clausti] Daughters vs. Sons [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
In reply to:
I mentioned it to my friend and he said, "Well if I had daughters, I probably wouldn't push them either."

robbovius wrote:
you're friend was either making a joke, or is a rampant chauvinist.

? my impression from the text only is that he said "daughters" because "daughters" were who was getting pushed in that scene. I don't know what I actually hear anything sinister in that comment, but more knowledge of the friend in question might clear it up.

Yeah, I admit to interpreting it from my personal perspective as a father of two daughters, and the defnesive/protective emotional response that arises naturally.

In reply to:
but I hate hate HATE hearing parents push, command, shame kids into climbing. .

.. which I often find has more to do with th parent needing to be in control, than enhancing the child's abilities, or encouraging the child to achievement that they are capable of, but don't realize it.


robbovius


Apr 23, 2009, 6:14 AM
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Re: [acacongua] Daughters vs. Sons [In reply to]
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acacongua wrote:
Kids are interested in what their friends are interested in (or in this case, when someone other than the parents take notice). Nothing is that exciting with just the parents.

This is absolutely key. you can be freidnly with your kids, and be their mentor, and teacher and provider, and love them until you feel like you're going to burn up from the glow, but you' can never ever be their peer.

and peer groups is where you hang out and express your cultural affiliations.

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