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ladyscarlett


Apr 27, 2009, 4:34 PM
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Daisy chain or no Daisy chain
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So I believe there are two schools of thought on this.

Some people won't climb without a daisy chain or some form of it. Basically, either the retailed daisy chain, or something that ties in (no via a biner, but directly) to the belay loop. (I've seen webbing/sling used in a pinch.)

Some people find it cluttered, not safe enough to warrant using, etc.

I'm beginner enough that I'm developing my habits. I generally do not have a daisy and usually use the rope to tie into an anchor rather than another "piece". In the few times I've used a daisy, it was a little awkward because I wasn't used to it.

My own awkwardness and feelings aside, I am interested in hearing both sides of the debate - to never climb without a "daisy chain" or why bother with another piece of gear?

cheers for the perspectives!

ls


Partner angry


Apr 27, 2009, 4:42 PM
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Re: [ladyscarlett] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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I never use one for regular climbing. I used to use one for almost every multipitch route until I realized I'm not getting anything that a rope and a runner won't get me. Thanks Brian from NY who I ran into many years ago in Yos who showed me that.

My personal beginner (who's not really a beginner anymore) likes them girth hitched to her harness. I've shown her the other ways and she's capable of doing it any of those ways. She just likes the girth hitch, it's more of a solid connection to the harness visually. It's fine.

FYI, I do not use any of the new fancy ultra skinny slings that might get severely weakened in a girth hitch. I'm not scared of them but everyone else has them and they all just seemed to walk off in the process of gear sorts. Now I'm the guy with fat old slings, no-one wants them.


rocknice2


Apr 27, 2009, 4:45 PM
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Re: [ladyscarlett] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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Both ways , rope vs PAS, have their advantages and disadvantages.
Try both ways and make up your own mind.

Instead of a daisy use a PAS.
I use a PAS and when climbing I pass it between my legs and clip it to the rear loop.

http://www.rei.com/product/722384


(This post was edited by rocknice2 on Apr 27, 2009, 4:51 PM)


Myxomatosis


Apr 27, 2009, 4:46 PM
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Re: [ladyscarlett] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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I always use a daisy chain and always clip it into two places.

I can build rope anchours and all that ka-ka but I just enjoy having the anchours and everyone I have taught, I always make them buy some also.

I got one of these....

http://www.aspiring.co.nz/webbing2.htm#anchor

NZ made with full strength loops and cant mess it up like the american ones. Its easy to adjust for height and length and if I need too, build topropes/anchours with them for all sorts of stuff.


no_email_entered


Apr 27, 2009, 4:50 PM
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Re: [Myxomatosis] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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Myxomatosis wrote:
I got one of these....

http://www.aspiring.co.nz/webbing2.htm#anchor

NZ made with full strength loops and cant mess it up like the american ones. Its easy to adjust for height and length and if I need too, build topropes/anchours with them for all sorts of stuff.

how did Metolius screw up the PAS?


rocknice2


Apr 27, 2009, 4:53 PM
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Re: [no_email_entered] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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no_email_entered wrote:
Myxomatosis wrote:
I got one of these....

http://www.aspiring.co.nz/webbing2.htm#anchor

NZ made with full strength loops and cant mess it up like the american ones. Its easy to adjust for height and length and if I need too, build topropes/anchours with them for all sorts of stuff.

how did Metolius screw up the PAS?

I think he's referring to daisies not the PAS


Partner angry


Apr 27, 2009, 4:54 PM
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Re: [Myxomatosis] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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It's worth noting that the thing you linked is full strength bomber gear while many "traditional" daisy chains can tear out the minor loops within loads that could easily be achieved in a climbing situation. Also note that on traditional daisy chains, depending how you clipped it, if a loop tears, you are not longer connected to anything.


pmyche


Apr 27, 2009, 5:09 PM
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Re: [ladyscarlett] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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Good word of warning, angry. When using traditionally-sewn pocketed daisies (not PAS-style daisies):

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/videos/daisy.html

Some lads having a go at the Nose I spoke with last year had no clue about this. Pardon me if it's old news for you, but this is critical info for anyone using this style of daisy (which is made by several different manufacturers).


An extra runner works for me, and it has other uses. I never use a daisy while free climbing. I most often use the rope.





PS: vvv Bill, I've found the human fuknes principle to be overblown based on having fallen onto daisies more than once. FWIW.


(This post was edited by pmyche on Apr 27, 2009, 5:15 PM)


bill413


Apr 27, 2009, 5:09 PM
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Re: [angry] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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I've climbed for quite a while with a runner girth hitched to my belay loop. (Actually, the last couple of years I've used two dyneema slings in parallel - but....). What I liked about it was coming up to an anchor & clipping in very quickly. Especially when leading. Also, when rapping, it was very convenient to rap down to a station, clip the anchor, and get off the rap quickly.
However...
After Todd Skinner's accident, I became concious (well, worried) about the fact that my slings were living on the same spot on the belay loop all the time. Then, reading about "human funkness devices" and the advantages of tying in with the rope, I'm converting to not having them permanently attached to me.
As this is my first season in a long while without them pre-attached, I'll have to see how it goes. I'm sure I'll feel better anchoring in while climbing, and be annoyed when rapping, but we'll see Smile


currupt4130


Apr 27, 2009, 5:10 PM
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Re: [ladyscarlett] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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I won't climb without a sling girth hitched to my belay loop and a locker on the end of it. It's come in handy so often I can't even fathom leaving it on the ground.

I use it when:
-I need to give my belayer a break if I'm hang dogging
-I need to clean top anchors on a route
-I'm in direct to clean some gear that's impossibly stuck (thank you whoever left a nut on Four Sheets To The Wind)
-As an initial connection when building an anchor on multi
-When I'm setting up top ropes as a safety in case I trip and fall
-When I'm goofing off at the base of the crag and playing with sketchy gear placements


There's probably more that I'm missing, but that's a good bit of usage in my book.


(This post was edited by currupt4130 on Apr 27, 2009, 5:12 PM)


no_email_entered


Apr 27, 2009, 5:10 PM
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Re: [rocknice2] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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rocknice2 wrote:
no_email_entered wrote:
Myxomatosis wrote:
I got one of these....

http://www.aspiring.co.nz/webbing2.htm#anchor

NZ made with full strength loops and cant mess it up like the american ones. Its easy to adjust for height and length and if I need too, build topropes/anchours with them for all sorts of stuff.

how did Metolius screw up the PAS?

I think he's referring to daisies not the PAS

maybe, but the PAS was mentioned up above---


---regardless, i gots a PAS on my trad harness and cowtails on the all-purpose and the sport harnesses. not much of a daisy fan unless they're being used for what they're intended: aiding


bill413


Apr 27, 2009, 5:21 PM
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Re: [no_email_entered] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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I think this is the link you should check out about daisy chains.

http://www.bdel.com/videos/daisy.html
or
http://www.fishproducts.com/...ath/daisy_death.html

It doesn't mean you shouldn't use them, it does mean you should be aware of how you clip.


(This post was edited by bill413 on Apr 27, 2009, 5:36 PM)


Partner angry


Apr 27, 2009, 5:42 PM
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Re: [currupt4130] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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currupt4130 wrote:
I won't climb without a sling girth hitched to my belay loop and a locker on the end of it. It's come in handy so often I can't even fathom leaving it on the ground.

I use it when:
-I need to give my belayer a break if I'm hang dogging
-I need to clean top anchors on a route
-I'm in direct to clean some gear that's impossibly stuck (thank you whoever left a nut on Four Sheets To The Wind)
-As an initial connection when building an anchor on multi
-When I'm setting up top ropes as a safety in case I trip and fall
-When I'm goofing off at the base of the crag and playing with sketchy gear placements


There's probably more that I'm missing, but that's a good bit of usage in my book.

I find one or two extra of these guys accomplish all the exact same things with less clutter. I guess it is 30g heavier (that's what my biners weigh anyway)




hafilax


Apr 27, 2009, 5:46 PM
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Re: [bill413] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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The only time I anchor with a sling is when I'm leading in blocks or rappelling. Otherwise I tie in with the rope which is by far the majority of the time. Generally I like to have just the rope at my tie in points so that my belay and clipping region is nice and tidy.

When I do need to anchor I take a sling off my harness, girth hitch it to the tie in points and use the 2 biners opposite and opposed to anchor with or grab a spare locker if there isn't enough room on the rap bolts to squeeze that many biners in. A single sling is usually close enough to the right length.

When I lead in blocks I use a double length sling with a knot in the middle girth hitched to my tie in points. I might splurge and get a PAS for that application but the sling has worked well enough that it's not at the top of my gear wanted list.


billl7


Apr 27, 2009, 6:02 PM
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Re: [ladyscarlett] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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I'm in the why-bother-with-a-daisy camp. However, most of the time I am tieing into an anchor it is on multi-pitch and so I already have a rope tied to my harness - so I use the rope.

About the ony time I don't have a rope that can remain tied into my harness is when topping out and getting ready for a rap. Then I use a girth-hitched sling. But perhaps about half the time the top-outs have a walk-off.

All that said, if I were more into single pitch I'd probably get something more adjustable than a sling with an intermedite knot or two - but maybe not.

Bill L


currupt4130


Apr 27, 2009, 6:07 PM
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Re: [angry] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
currupt4130 wrote:
I won't climb without a sling girth hitched to my belay loop and a locker on the end of it. It's come in handy so often I can't even fathom leaving it on the ground.

I use it when:
-I need to give my belayer a break if I'm hang dogging
-I need to clean top anchors on a route
-I'm in direct to clean some gear that's impossibly stuck (thank you whoever left a nut on Four Sheets To The Wind)
-As an initial connection when building an anchor on multi
-When I'm setting up top ropes as a safety in case I trip and fall
-When I'm goofing off at the base of the crag and playing with sketchy gear placements


There's probably more that I'm missing, but that's a good bit of usage in my book.

I find one or two extra of these guys accomplish all the exact same things with less clutter. I guess it is 30g heavier (that's what my biners weigh anyway)

[image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/176621-largest_34184.jpg[/image]

I use one of the skinny Mammut slings and it gets tucked under whatever gear I have on me. It tends to stay out of the way just fine. But I know what you mean. I almost wish I could just get one permanently sewn around my belay loop so I wouldn't have to girth hitch it.


Myxomatosis


Apr 27, 2009, 6:10 PM
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Re: [bill413] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
I think this is the link you should check out about daisy chains.

http://www.bdel.com/videos/daisy.html
or
http://www.fishproducts.com/...ath/daisy_death.html

It doesn't mean you shouldn't use them, it does mean you should be aware of how you clip.

Yeah this is what I was talking about Daisy Chain... not a PAS.

I've talked to a few people who never knew about the 'daisy death'... so just goes to show.


acorneau


Apr 27, 2009, 6:17 PM
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Re: [ladyscarlett] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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If you want a personal tether (other than the rope) I would go with (in order of preference):

1. Purcell Prussic
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=1994476

2. Sterling Chain Reactor (nylon):
http://www.sterlingrope.com/climbing_products3.asp

3. Blue Water Titan Loop Chain or Metolius PAS:
http://bluewaterropes.com/...Key=&ProdKey=268

I use a Pucell prussic tied with 6mm cord, girth hitched to my harness. Quick, easy, adjustable, shock absorbing, load releasable, and cheap to buy/make!


granite_grrl


Apr 27, 2009, 6:18 PM
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Re: [ladyscarlett] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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When I was getting all geared up for trad leading I bought a daisy. It just added to the clusterfuck of gear on my harness for a new leader. I got rid of it pretty quick.

It seemed kinda silly to drag extra bulk up when it really only has one purpose....especially when you've got any number of full strength runners and a rope attached to you that can do the job just as well.


esoteric1


Apr 27, 2009, 6:20 PM
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Re: [Myxomatosis] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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first of all, a daisy chain is an aid climbing tool. leave them at home unless you have your aiders.
2, a pas or the equevelant is part of my personal gear that never leaves my harness. crap that you use in a pinch can malfunction with low blood sugar at the end of the day when your dehydrated, if something is bombproof and is always a constant, you have less of a chance of accidentaly commiting suicide.
3 a pas can efectivly be made into an anchor in an emergency.
ie hurt partner or whatever.


Lazlo


Apr 27, 2009, 6:27 PM
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Re: [acorneau] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
If you want a personal tether (other than the rope) I would go with (in order of preference):

1. Purcell Prussic
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=1994476

2. Sterling Chain Reactor (nylon):
http://www.sterlingrope.com/climbing_products3.asp

3. Blue Water Titan Loop Chain or Metolius PAS:
http://bluewaterropes.com/...Key=&ProdKey=268

I use a Pucell prussic tied with 6mm cord, girth hitched to my harness. Quick, easy, adjustable, shock absorbing, load releasable, and cheap to buy/make!

I used to use the pucell prussick. Mostly I liked it as a cool rope trick. I found it to be too bulky compared to its versatility. Just my opinion though. It's a brilliant knot.


shimanilami


Apr 27, 2009, 6:37 PM
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Re: [ladyscarlett] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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My "mentor" taught me to use a daisy, but once I got comfortable using the rope with a clove hitch, I gave up on the daisy for free climbing. IMO the rope is simpler and more adjustable, especially if you want to move around (e.g. on a ledge).

The only time using a rope is an issue is if I need to untie, in which case I grab a sling or two and clip in with those.


no_email_entered


Apr 27, 2009, 6:38 PM
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Re: [esoteric1] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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esoteric1 wrote:
first of all, a daisy chain is an aid climbing tool. leave them at home unless you have your aiders.
2, a pas or the equevelant is part of my personal gear that never leaves my harness. crap that you use in a pinch can malfunction with low blood sugar at the end of the day when your dehydrated, if something is bombproof and is always a constant, you have less of a chance of accidentaly commiting suicide.
3 a pas can efectivly be made into an anchor in an emergency.
ie hurt partner or whatever.

word---


---bro


esoteric1


Apr 27, 2009, 6:44 PM
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what do you guys do when you are rapping, and come to an anchor with no ledge? you invent something real quick until you get back on rappel, a mistake waiting to happen imo


bill413


Apr 27, 2009, 6:57 PM
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Re: [esoteric1] Daisy chain or no Daisy chain [In reply to]
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Well....that was one of the reasons I liked having the slings girth hitched to me.

However, now I'll either pre-rig a sling, or pull one off my rack or shoulder & clip. Then, probably leave it attached to me until I'm on the ground.

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