May 7, 2009, 10:43 PM
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What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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Had this argument with some friends the other day. Considering all people who consider themselves climbers-everyone from gym rats to pros, what percent of climbers can climb 5.12?
EDIT: let me make this clearer. 5.12. redpoint. sport. lead. outside.
(This post was edited by alamuerte on May 7, 2009, 11:03 PM)
May 7, 2009, 10:51 PM
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Re: [alamuerte] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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Sorry but there's no way to answer this without getting into a discussion as to what it means to "climb 5.12." Ratings have diverged to such a degree (more than a full number grade) that just saying a number doesn't really say much. For example, what % can climb, with practice, new school bolt jobs in Boulder Canyon? Quite a few, maybe 25% or even higher (but I like your option of 50-75% and then your option of even higher--get real). Percent that can trad lead 5.12 at an area where they're rated on the stiff side? That's a real expert (not saying world class, just an expert)--less than 10%.
May 7, 2009, 11:26 PM
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Re: [alamuerte] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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There is no way it is in the 50 to 75 percent range if you include all climbers. I would say that the vast majority of climbers maybe climb once or twice a month and stick to 5.8 and below.
May 7, 2009, 11:41 PM
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Re: [alamuerte] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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The number of climbers that can climb 5.12 by potential? The majority (let's say eighty percent). The number that have already acquired the necessary skills and strength to climb 5.12? I don't know, but I'd wager it's safely below twenty percent.
May 8, 2009, 12:06 AM
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Re: [kriso9tails] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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kriso9tails wrote:
The number of climbers that can climb 5.12 by potential? The majority (let's say eighty percent). The number that have already acquired the necessary skills and strength to climb 5.12? I don't know, but I'd wager it's safely below twenty percent.
I respectfully disagree in a big way. I have belayed my partner on 5.11a sport, and it was all he could do to nail it. That was a year ago, and he probably has done 12 since then. He has been able to travel out of the Southeast to Oregon and Colorado.
He is one of the best that I know. I believe the percentage to be more like 25% being capable. It is more than strength to weight, etc. It is a mental state in conjunction with a capable body.
Me, I'm an 8 sport kind of guy, so I really enjoy plugging gear on 5.5 and 5.6 routes. I turn 60 this year, but I would not be able to climb 5.12 if I was 25.
May 8, 2009, 12:09 AM
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Re: [kriso9tails] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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damn, some of you fellahs must only see hard men where you climb, or hang out at softly graded crags!
less than 10% i reckon. i imagine if you climb that hard and hang out at a crag dominated by routes at that grade then you'll only see climbers who can pull that hard, but i think there a whole lot of folks out there who won't ever hit that grade.
May 8, 2009, 3:06 AM
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Re: [alamuerte] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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There are too many people out there who consider themselves climbers that I wouldn't consider climbers. These people will never climbing 5.11 much less 5.12.
Yeah like Angry says... there is so many different climbs out there.. .shit most people I know could do a one move wonder 5.12 and there are plently of climbs around with the wrong grade.
Grades are different from country to country, crag to crag.
I know ive been to some places where a 5.11 felt like a 5.12c and some places a 5.12c felt like a 5.11.
May 8, 2009, 4:26 AM
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Re: [Myxomatosis] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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Ya I belayed up to 14a. I bet its less than 1 % that can climb 12's. I've redpointed and even FFA some 5.12's but I would not consider myself a 5.12 climber
May 8, 2009, 4:37 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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granite_grrl wrote:
There are too many people out there who consider themselves climbers that I wouldn't consider climbers. These people will never climbing 5.11 much less 5.12.
This suvey is still way too open ended.
Yea I was going to say the same thing. Most of the "climbers" I meet aren't climbers at all. They "like to climb," but they aren't really "climbers."
What is a 5.12 climber? I think to call yourself a 5.12 climber, you have to be able to onsight 5.12. Maybe not anywhere any day, but somewhat regularly. I mean a .12a is SO much easier than a .12c that even someone who onsights .12a shouldn't be able to get away with saying they are a "5.12" climber. I don't even want to get into trad vs. sport, and soft grades vs. sandbags. I onsight .11b or c at most of the places I've climbed recently... sport. I would call myself a 5.10, maybe .11 SPORT climber.
Do seasonal climbers count? I know ski bums who only climb 6 months a year when there is no snow. Many of them could easily climb .12's if they climbed year round... but when the snow falls they completely forget about climbing.
Mountaineers? OK so a lot of mountaineers CAN pull 5.12, but a lot can't. They have to factor into the survey though because they are mountaineers and they are, by definition, the most bad ass climbers of all of us. There are a lot of guys out there not climbing 5.12 that do stuff in the mountains that I could NEVER do.
I think to call yourself a climber, you have to climb at least one day a week and train another day or two per week. Maybe not all year round but at least seasonally over more than one year. Training can be anything that gets you in shape but I would like to think that "climbers" would be doing sport specific exercises.
What about the people who live at the Red? Of course they climb 5.12! They make pizza a few days a week and they project the hell out of a few routes... if you work a .12b for a month and get it, does that make you a 5.12 climber? Psst... I know those guys all climb way harder than .12b... just making an example.
Or the people I live with in Thailand? The grades are a bit soft at the Red in my opinion and they are soft in Thailand in everyone's opinion. Lot's of 5.12 (7a+) climbers in Tonsai! That's all they do! And most people in the states don't even know they exist!!
Truth is... it doesn't matter. You go watch people climb and soon enough you'll know who can really climb 5.12 and who just thinks they can.
May 8, 2009, 6:34 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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johnwesely wrote:
There is no way it is in the 50 to 75 percent range if you include all climbers. I would say that the vast majority of climbers maybe climb once or twice a month and stick to 5.8 and below.
I agree it's not in that range. However, since he didn't put any numbers higher than 75 up there, I settled on 50 to 75.
May 8, 2009, 5:22 PM
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Re: [alamuerte] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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CAN lead? or DO lead?
Big difference...
Wasn't there a survey in Rock and Ice a few months back ("the everyman's issue")? I remember there was a blurb about how many of the people responding to the survey climbed 5.12 or harder. I believe it was less than 25%. not quite the same as 'general population of climbers", but a ballpark...
May 8, 2009, 5:33 PM
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Re: [alamuerte] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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I'd say around 99% of climbers can climb 5.12. It may take them some serious work and training, but I bet there is a very very small percentage of climbers that can't ever climb 5.12 if they work hard enough.
May 8, 2009, 5:40 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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in Boulder, CO I would say its about 25%... most places i've been the 12's are empty. hell it's rare to see someone on a 5.12 at shelf road, CO. My vote is less then 10%
May 8, 2009, 6:10 PM
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Re: [alamuerte] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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A couple of years ago, I read an interview with a marketing guy from 5.10 (?), who stated that >90% of "climbers" in the USA are exclusively gym climbers, and that this was a major driver in the types of shoes, etc. they make.
To me, this says a lot about the climber population. At least 90% cannot climb real rock, let alone something difficult. And of the 10% who climb real rock, I'd venture that <10% of those climb 5.12.
So, by my logic, <1% of "climbers" can climb 5.12.
May 8, 2009, 6:24 PM
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Re: [alamuerte] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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I put <10% based on the OP's assertion that these were self-identified climbers.
I work in a gym with a ton of "climbers" and I am certain that <10% of them climb outside, ever. Now I am in the Bay Area of California so there aren't any destination crags near by. But given the 5-600 climbers I see on a weekly basis, maybe 20 of them can even RP a soft 12 in the gym.
So I think that location not only affects the grades but also the population at the Red and Tonsai and Red Rocks etc. soft climbing destinations I find the number to be closer to 25% but these sub-populations make up a very small proportion of the over all self-identified climber population.
I personally have RP'd a couple 12a's but I would not consider myself a 5.12 climber.
May 8, 2009, 6:31 PM
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Re: [Varanuschris] What percent of 'climbers' can climb 5.12?
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You know, I think this question misses the point. I'd say plenty of people can work there way up to red pointing a 12a sport route.
What's more impressive are climbers who can consistently send a 12 within 2-3 attempts. Dogging your way up a 12 project doesn't mean shite. Onsighting a 12 is another game.
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