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Pizzafarno


May 8, 2009, 4:22 PM
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Small Cams necessary?
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Hey all-
Im new to climbing and have just started to buy gear. Im focusing on cams right now. Right now i have BD camalot c4 - #.5-#4. Do i need the smaller ones, for example, the BD camalot c3's? Or maybe just smaller c4's? Are they truly necessary? Or micronuts to make up for it?
Thanks!

background- i climb in Tahoe and Yosemite, CA-all granite .


(This post was edited by Pizzafarno on May 8, 2009, 4:23 PM)


Partner angry


May 8, 2009, 4:49 PM
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Re: [Pizzafarno] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Micronuts are smaller than the smallest cam that you can fall on. There is a place for both.

I didn't place many small cams as a beginner, now I place them all the time. It all depends on the route. There are many times that a small cam will go where a nut just would not. The inverse is also true.

I think you'll do OK with cams down to .5 while you're getting started. Get smaller ones when you start noticing that you constantly are needing smaller ones.


patto


May 8, 2009, 4:51 PM
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Re: [angry] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Unless you are particularly cost constrained then I recomend getting down to .3 C4. These are still a long way from really small.


evanwish


May 8, 2009, 5:21 PM
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Re: [angry] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
I didn't place many small cams as a beginner, now I place them all the time.

hmm... i never really thought about it but same here... good point

angry wrote:
Get smaller ones when you start noticing that you constantly are needing smaller ones.

that is of course probably when its too late... Blush


Johnny_Fang


May 8, 2009, 5:38 PM
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Re: [Pizzafarno] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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i really, really like the metolius tcu's as small units, overthing from 00 up to 4 are beautiful tools that i love placing, and of course everyone creams their pants about aliens though i don't have any because i'm not that cool. camalots for the mid range up to a 4 as you have.


bill413


May 8, 2009, 5:50 PM
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Re: [Johnny_Fang] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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I'm in angry's camp - didn't use much small stuff when starting (well, sometimes used small stoppers/offsets to hold a real nut in place). I got one small cam and it came in useful in a lot of situations...but...it's not nearly as strong as bigger pieces. I think of the small ones as "well, at least I have something." So....if you're just starting out, I think concentrate on bigger pro. Maybe buy one (or two) small cams, and expect to be frustrated that it's just too big or small. But, that will help you decide.

When you have a choice, bigger pro (within reason) is generally more reliable than smaller pro.


salamanizer


May 8, 2009, 6:57 PM
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Re: [Pizzafarno] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Just starting out huh...

Well, I'll give you the same advice I give all new comers.

When you really need something, you'll know exactly what it is you need.


That being said, I use small cams all the time. My ass has been saved many times and I have logged some big air time onto black Aliens, 00 Metolius TCU's and purple/grey C3's.

Also, I could not and would not survive without my DMM Peanuts. Best "micro" nuts for free climbing Sierra granite I've ever used.
They routinely take the R right out of a route.


Terry2124


May 8, 2009, 8:58 PM
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Re: [Pizzafarno] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Pizzafarno wrote:
Hey all-
Im new to climbing and have just started to buy gear. Im focusing on cams right now. Right now i have BD camalot c4 - #.5-#4. Do i need the smaller ones, for example, the BD camalot c3's? Or maybe just smaller c4's? Are they truly necessary? Or micronuts to make up for it?
Thanks!

background- i climb in Tahoe and Yosemite, CA-all granite .

Micro nuts are for aid climbing, would you really trust a fall using one?


uni_jim


May 8, 2009, 9:56 PM
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Re: [Terry2124] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Terry2124 wrote:

Micro nuts are for aid climbing, would you really trust a fall using one?

*cough* doesn't know what he's talking about *cough*


salamanizer


May 8, 2009, 11:27 PM
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Re: [Terry2124] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Terry2124 wrote:
Pizzafarno wrote:
Hey all-
Im new to climbing and have just started to buy gear. Im focusing on cams right now. Right now i have BD camalot c4 - #.5-#4. Do i need the smaller ones, for example, the BD camalot c3's? Or maybe just smaller c4's? Are they truly necessary? Or micronuts to make up for it?
Thanks!

background- i climb in Tahoe and Yosemite, CA-all granite .

Micro nuts are for aid climbing, would you really trust a fall using one?



YES!


cush


May 9, 2009, 7:52 AM
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Re: [uni_jim] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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no, it actually says it on the packaging for them even. right next to the "climbing is a dangerous activity" label it says that they shouldn't be used to protect against a fall.


Factor2


May 9, 2009, 8:08 AM
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Re: [Terry2124] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Terry2124 wrote:
Pizzafarno wrote:
Hey all-
Im new to climbing and have just started to buy gear. Im focusing on cams right now. Right now i have BD camalot c4 - #.5-#4. Do i need the smaller ones, for example, the BD camalot c3's? Or maybe just smaller c4's? Are they truly necessary? Or micronuts to make up for it?
Thanks!

background- i climb in Tahoe and Yosemite, CA-all granite .

Micro nuts are for aid climbing, would you really trust a fall using one?

just can't have a thread with all good information, can we?Smile


uni_jim


May 9, 2009, 8:32 AM
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Re: [cush] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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There are free routes out there whaich are protected by micronuts. They can hold falls.


rocknice2


May 9, 2009, 8:52 AM
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Re: [uni_jim] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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Can micronuts hold falls? Depends on the fall.
I've seen a 00 walnut break under a good bounce.
I've use them as pro when I can get anything else.

To say YES they can hold a fall implies that they are solid pro mean to whip on.
Depending on their size they can take 2-4kn...................not much


uni_jim


May 9, 2009, 9:05 AM
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Re: [rocknice2] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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 (taken from mec.ca)
---------------------------------------
Gear Notes:
Black Diamond Micro Stopper

Size Range Strength Weight
1 3.7-5.1mm 2kN 4g
2 4.6-6.5mm 3kN 7g
3 5.1-7.5mm 5kN 10g
4 5.9-8.4mm 6kN 13g
5 7.4-9.4mm 6kN 15g
6 8.8-10.4mm 8kN 21g
----------------------------------------
Like all protection, the holding power is dependant on the placement, and yes, micro's are not as strong as larger pices. If placed properly, all but the smallest should be able to arrest a fall. I wouldn't want to fall on the #1 or #2, but i would place them if i had them.


cush


May 9, 2009, 9:09 AM
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Re: [uni_jim] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I wouldn't want to fall on the #1 or #2, but i would place them if i had them.

basically, this.


Lazlo


May 9, 2009, 9:50 AM
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Re: [salamanizer] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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salamanizer wrote:
Also, I could not and would not survive without my DMM Peanuts. Best "micro" nuts for free climbing Sierra granite I've ever used.
They routinely take the R right out of a route.

That is the best endorsement for gear I've ever heard or read. I now want a set. Blush


nnowinowski


May 9, 2009, 10:45 AM
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Re: [Lazlo] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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omg. there is so much crap mixed in the information on this site that it blows my mind. You should not need microcams on sierra granite if you are climbing sierra granite 10a and below and you read the routes so you don't get on thin parallel seams. In my estimation placing good cams is best learned with fingers and up to get a good view of how the lobes are contacting the rock, proper expansion, ect. Hexes and big nuts are for the most part a waste of time (for you and the person cleaning them). Learning to place good passive gear in the micro to fat fingers sizes is absolutely essential. Even if you have small cams if you want to be good and safe invest time learning thin nuts and it will pay off. Also, a majority of the best microcam placements on granite will mimic a passive placement, locking into a slight constriction. Cams are always faster, nuts are always lighter and go smaller and protect shallower placements.


brutusofwyde


May 9, 2009, 11:56 AM
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Re: [nnowinowski] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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nnowinowski wrote:
omg. there is so much crap mixed in the information on this site that it blows my mind. You should not need microcams on sierra granite if you are climbing sierra granite 10a and below and you read the routes so you don't get on thin parallel seams. In my estimation placing good cams is best learned with fingers and up to get a good view of how the lobes are contacting the rock, proper expansion, ect. Hexes and big nuts are for the most part a waste of time (for you and the person cleaning them). Learning to place good passive gear in the micro to fat fingers sizes is absolutely essential. Even if you have small cams if you want to be good and safe invest time learning thin nuts and it will pay off. Also, a majority of the best microcam placements on granite will mimic a passive placement, locking into a slight constriction. Cams are always faster, nuts are always lighter and go smaller and protect shallower placements.

Mostly word. Until that SLCD gets over-cammed.

If you're looking at micro cams, or even micro nuts, you have ventured beyond the realm of "just starting out," should take a good long look in the mirror and think about why you are climbing, and if you don't give up climbing then, should inveast in some load limiters like Yates Screamers.


Partner angry


May 9, 2009, 1:38 PM
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Re: [brutusofwyde] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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brutusofwyde wrote:
Mostly word. Until that SLCD gets over-cammed.

If you're looking at micro cams, or even micro nuts, you have ventured beyond the realm of "just starting out," should take a good long look in the mirror and think about why you are climbing, and if you don't give up climbing then, should inveast in some load limiters like Yates Screamers.

Now I've placed a lot of micro's and small nuts. I've even attached a screamer to one here or there. Funny thing is, especially for someone just starting out, is that screamers probably make your situation more dangerous.

Here's why.

Most of the little gear I place it seems, is to remind me that I've got shitty gear so I can't fall. It keeps my game on and allows me to keep my shit together. That reminder that a lot of my gear sucks keeps me from falling. In fact, I rarely have ever fallen on micro nuts and cams and ballnutz despite doing so many routes that exclusively require them. I'll add rusty 1/4" Leepers to that list too. When I start clipping screamers to those pieces, my mind relaxes, I partially go back into good gear/sport mode and I hang it out further than I ever would if I had shitty gear.

Considering the debate on the efficacy of screamer or any load limiter (ref: rgold), I feel that the screamer is a merely a mental ploy to force me into putting it all out there. On the topic of whether it actually helps though, the answer is pretty much maybe/yeah/dunno/couldn't hurt/what he said/I read online that.../vibrating/how about ice?. In other words, who knows.

I wouldn't suggest a load limiter to beginner because he should either be on routes with solid gear or learning how to climb solid above sketch gear. There's an adolescence we need to pass before we start pretending bad gear is good.


Terry2124


May 9, 2009, 9:30 PM
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Re: [uni_jim] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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uni_jim wrote:
(taken from mec.ca)
---------------------------------------
Gear Notes:
Black Diamond Micro Stopper

Size Range Strength Weight
1 3.7-5.1mm 2kN 4g
2 4.6-6.5mm 3kN 7g
3 5.1-7.5mm 5kN 10g
4 5.9-8.4mm 6kN 13g
5 7.4-9.4mm 6kN 15g
6 8.8-10.4mm 8kN 21g
----------------------------------------
Like all protection, the holding power is dependant on the placement, and yes, micro's are not as strong as larger pices. If placed properly, all but the smallest should be able to arrest a fall. I wouldn't want to fall on the #1 or #2, but i would place them if i had them.

I have all these 1 - 6. The manufacturer does state its not meant to take a fall. There are just so small that a big fall would most likely rip them out of place. Yes they can hold but not recommended for noobs, you would have to have experience placing protection.


patto


May 10, 2009, 6:19 AM
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Re: [Pizzafarno] Small Cams necessary? [In reply to]
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My hardest trad lead is Lazy Bum at Sunnyside Bench, Yosemite, 5.10d. This climb would be much scarier if I wasn't carrying peenuts and small RPs. I stitched up the crux and found it much easier than 5.10d.

There are plenty of climbs in my local crag that require RPs. I guess that is why it is them home of RPs. Wink


Pizzafarno


May 11, 2009, 6:43 PM
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thanks for the responses guys- so the basic answer is yes!


clintcummins


May 12, 2009, 3:20 PM
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Below the #.5 C4, there are still finger sized cracks where small cams are quite helpful. Most people will have these 2 sizes:
- "regular fingers" - #2/yellow Metolius TCU or 4CU, or yellow Alien (or equivalent C3 in this size)
- "thin fingers" - #1/blue Metolius TCU or 4CU, or green Alien (or equivalent C3)

You can also go to smaller sizes like #0 and #00 TCUs or blue and black Aliens, but the range of these cams and their surface area contact is quite small. So they are less frequently used in my experience. If you are going to climb El Cap, or do a route with runouts and small cracks, they might be essential. But if you are leading 5.8/5.9 you probably don't need to get cams that small.


petsfed


May 12, 2009, 4:26 PM
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I placed a yellow alien today in such a perfect placement that I mentally patted myself on the back. But the only reason I used the alien and not the nut I usually place there was because I happen to have a small cam today. For the sub 5.10 leader, nuts are generally more useful, and until you get down to the truly micro stuff (micro nuts are less than a quarter inch, not just smaller than a .5 C4), you don't really need to worry about it that much. That said, I'd pick up a .4 C4 or a yellow alien or equivalent when you've got the money and the presence of mind to do so. Its a handy piece and you'll use it a ton more than you might think. Its the first fingers size I doubled up on.

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