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Bonneau
Jul 11, 2009, 12:56 PM
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hello everyone, im new to this forum and pretty new to rock climbing
after few months of gym climbing, i decided to start climbing on real rocks...
i have got a nice dynamic rope and a verso for 175$ which is a good price...
i thought to buy a package of 6 quickdraws, but i am deliberating between
these
http://www.rei.com/product/769020
and these
http://www.rei.com/product/751535
which one do you think i should take?
maybe do you have a better idea....
thanks for reading
have a nice week
bonneau
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karcand
Jul 11, 2009, 1:06 PM
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I have the Black Diomand FreeWire http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442621020&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302690789&bmUID=1247317413948
I would suggest notchless beaners. Other than that you have to try them out. I need a bigger beaner because I have huge hands. Everyone likes different draws, and they all do the job.
You should also get 10 draws, not 6 and two extenable draws (in my opinion)
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Bonneau
Jul 11, 2009, 1:30 PM
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what are notchless beaners?
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Neel
Jul 11, 2009, 3:09 PM
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Bonneau wrote: hello everyone, im new to this forum and pretty new to rock climbing after few months of gym climbing, i decided to start climbing on real rocks... i have got a nice dynamic rope and a verso for 175$ which is a good price... i thought to buy a package of 6 quickdraws, but i am deliberating between these http://www.rei.com/product/769020 and these http://www.rei.com/product/751535 which one do you think i should take? maybe do you have a better idea.... thanks for reading have a nice week bonneau
for the price of the dirtbag draws, you're better off getting the CAMP Orbits. If you're looking at the quicksilvers (or any draw for that matter), i find that GearExpress.com usually has the best prices (the Quicksilvers are like $10 cheaper for the set of 6) vs. REI.
But like someone else posted, consider getting draws with notchless biners http://www.rockclimbing.com/...um.cgi?post=1838286; this might help, or confuse you.
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granite_grrl
Jul 11, 2009, 3:22 PM
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Bonneau wrote: hello everyone, im new to this forum and pretty new to rock climbing after few months of gym climbing, i decided to start climbing on real rocks... i have got a nice dynamic rope and a verso for 175$ which is a good price... i thought to buy a package of 6 quickdraws, but i am deliberating between these http://www.rei.com/product/769020 and these http://www.rei.com/product/751535 which one do you think i should take? maybe do you have a better idea.... thanks for reading have a nice week bonneau
The Quicksilvers aren't bad biners at all. I have upgraded many of my draws to notchless nose for the bolt end and wire gates for the rope end...but the rest still have the Quicksilvers and they're not shabby.
I'd skip the OP draws. At least the Quicksilvers are decent biners that you can use for other things if you upgrade later.
The thing that would break the deal for me though is that the Quicksilver draws have those stupid skinny dogbones. Who the hell ever thought those were a good idea for sport climbing? Working something or getting in over your head....you'll be happy with a dog bone you can actually grab and hold onto. Try to get some thicker dogbones.
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rtwilli4
Jul 11, 2009, 10:05 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: Bonneau wrote: hello everyone, im new to this forum and pretty new to rock climbing after few months of gym climbing, i decided to start climbing on real rocks... i have got a nice dynamic rope and a verso for 175$ which is a good price... i thought to buy a package of 6 quickdraws, but i am deliberating between these http://www.rei.com/product/769020 and these http://www.rei.com/product/751535 which one do you think i should take? maybe do you have a better idea.... thanks for reading have a nice week bonneau Clicky! The Quicksilvers aren't bad biners at all. I have upgraded many of my draws to notchless nose for the bolt end and wire gates for the rope end...but the rest still have the Quicksilvers and they're not shabby. I'd skip the OP draws. At least the Quicksilvers are decent biners that you can use for other things if you upgrade later. The thing that would break the deal for me though is that the Quicksilver draws have those stupid skinny dogbones. Who the hell ever thought those were a good idea for sport climbing? Working something or getting in over your head....you'll be happy with a dog bone you can actually grab and hold onto. Try to get some thicker dogbones.
RC.com strikes again with a shitty piece of advice given to a beginner.
Have I grabbed a draw? Yes.
Would I tell a beginner (or anyone for that matter) to do it? NO
Suggesting to buy a QD based on how easy they are to grab onto in a freak out moment is just plain dumb.
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limeydave
Jul 11, 2009, 10:16 PM
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There was a review in Rock and Ice this month where grabability was one of the factors remarked on for some stiffer dogboned draws. Some people do that.
I have the BD ones which are very skinny and twisty, makes me happy when I do the occasional trad route, but as I mostly sport climb nowadays, I'm thinking of getting some stiffer petzl dogbones. They are easier to clip if they are not twisting around.
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rtwilli4
Jul 11, 2009, 10:34 PM
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limeydave wrote: There was a review in Rock and Ice this month where grabability was one of the factors remarked on for some stiffer dogboned draws. Some people do that. I have the BD ones which are very skinny and twisty, makes me happy when I do the occasional trad route, but as I mostly sport climb nowadays, I'm thinking of getting some stiffer petzl dogbones. They are easier to clip if they are not twisting around.
I just think it's dangerous and to be honest a lot the stuff in the mags is no more correct than a lot of stuff on this site.
I also think that if you are clipping right and are any good at it then it wont matter what kind of dog bone you have, but that's just me.
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limeydave
Jul 12, 2009, 1:15 AM
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You're not wrong about the mags...
Is grabbing a draw really that dangerous though? It's not something I do typically, but I've seen plenty of people do it without suffering life threatening injuries.
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karmiclimber
Jul 12, 2009, 1:35 AM
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ITA. I think its one of those "bad habits" you just avoid by never starting...
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rtwilli4
Jul 12, 2009, 1:47 AM
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karmiclimber wrote: ITA. I think its one of those "bad habits" you just avoid by never starting...
yea I think that probably describes it a lot better than I could. I don't think it's SO dangerous, but yea I've seen some pretty nasty stuff happen, and if you are so over your head or pumped that you have to grab the draw to clip, then there is a good chance that you're going to let go of the draw too... maybe with a lot of slack in the system.
Again... it's not a huge deal and I've done it more than once, but mentioning it to a beginner brings it into the system long before they even understand the system.
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bill413
Jul 12, 2009, 2:00 AM
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I think...but will preface this with I DO NOT KNOW...that grabbing a draw is bad form, but not dangerous in and of itself; provided you are stable when you grab it. If you lunge & grab it you may very easily slide down into & off of the lower biner...which can rip up you hand. Badly.
BTW, I think that trying to grab a slim draw would be much harder, and more likely to hurt you, than a normal draw.
IMO:
If you are going to grab a draw, make sure you are not falling into grabbing; make sure you are securing yourself before you do anything else; make sure you have a firm grasp so you do not slip off. And, if you are doing all that....why not just go for the move & risk the fall?
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mikebee
Jul 13, 2009, 10:09 AM
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I reckon choosing a draw based on how easy the dogbone is to grab is a bad idea. There are many more important and worthwhile things to consider with regards to draws.
Top (bolt) end biners:
- Don't get a wire gate for the top. They can be twisted round in bad angles and the bolt bracket can open the gate a bit resulting in a crab that is no where near full strength.
- Also, straight gate biners are easier to clip through gear and bolts, so thats why the sets have straight gates up top. This is noteworthy if you're looking to make you own draw from seperate bits of gear.
- I hate hooked nose biners, and so I only have notchless (keylocking) noses for my gear end biners. The hook can get caught up on your gear loop if, and if you're sketching to make a clip, this isn't cool. I reckon save the hassle and get a notchless one.
- Examples of nice gear end biners are the ubiquitous Petzl Spirit, the new BD Dynotron (which has a surprisingly sexy gate action), the BD Positron, DMM Aero, and countless others. You're best to pick one up and have a play with it. I like the Spirits personally.
Dogbones:
- They are all just as strong, so don't stress about that
- Thin is lighter
- Thicker is less prone to twisting (again, nice to have if you're sketching for a clip)
- Get a range of lengths, as you'll find sometimes that a short dogbone will have you rope end biner loaded over an edge or the like - not cool.
- The most common dobgone I see round is the 25mm Petzl Express.
Rope end biners:
- Again, notchless rules, though the benefits aren't as distinct as for the bolt end biner
- Wire gates are lighter, meaning less weight, and also less chance (however minor) of whiplash
- Wire gates also present a nice wide, flat surface to drive the rope against when clipping. I prefer wiregates for this reason.
- The ultimate rope end biner, I believe is the Wild Country Helium. However, anything that feels good in the hand and had a nice gate action will do.
You're best bet is to head into a large gear store and have a play with a range of biners and see what you like.
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traverpen
Jul 13, 2009, 7:08 PM
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The best draws to use are your partners, because they are free.
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kennoyce
Jul 13, 2009, 8:00 PM
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All pretty good advice so far. I definitely prefer a keylock (notchless) for the bolt side, and a wiregate for the rope side. Personally I have the thin BD dogbones, and I haven't had any problems or complaints about them so far (since may), but I don't generally grab my draws either.
If you are just going for price and aren't as worried about a keylock gate, but want some lightweight good draws, I would recommend these, they're 10 bucks, and 100 times nicer than the OP dirtbags. Just a thought.
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ClimbClimb
Jul 14, 2009, 3:07 AM
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limeydave wrote: Is grabbing a draw really that dangerous though? It's not something I do typically, but I've seen plenty of people do it without suffering life threatening injuries.
I think this is consistent... my guess would be that the biggest risk would be non-lifethreatening -- but potentially severe -- injuries to fingers and hands, no?
e.g., I knew a guy who got his finger stuck in a piece of gear when falling, his weight ended up on the one finger -- was in a cast & several surgeries for months.
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Factor2
Jul 14, 2009, 3:47 AM
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granite_grrl wrote: karmiclimber wrote: ITA. I think its one of those "bad habits" you just avoid by never starting... Yeah, kinda like using a stick clip. 
mmm I completely see the connection between grabbing draws and stick clipping. Also, I practice dynoing by training my knee bars. Direct correlation  
(This post was edited by Factor2 on Jul 14, 2009, 3:48 AM)
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jt512
Jul 14, 2009, 4:18 AM
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rtwilli4 wrote: karmiclimber wrote: ITA. I think its one of those "bad habits" you just avoid by never starting... yea I think that probably describes it a lot better than I could. I don't think it's SO dangerous, but yea I've seen some pretty nasty stuff happen, and if you are so over your head or pumped that you have to grab the draw to clip, then there is a good chance that you're going to let go of the draw too... maybe with a lot of slack in the system.
For a sport climber, you sure are naïve about redpoint tactics. Firstly, if you need to work out a hard move, and the section is not too steep to do it on toprope, then you need to get the next bolt clipped. You don't want to be taking repeated lead falls just to work a move, because every time you take a lead fall, you have to waste energy climbing back up to the move you want to work. Therefore, if you can manage to barely get the draw clipped in to the bolt from a bad clipping hold, then, by all means, grab the fucking draw, if it makes clipping the rope in easier.
Secondly, sometimes there will just be a bolt where clipping the draw into the bolt is much harder than clipping the rope in a pre-hung draw, in which case, your first job on redpoint day will be to waste a burn putting the draws up. So you hang the draw from the desperate hold, then grab the draw to clip the rope.
Grabbing draws is a habit you should avoid when on-sighting. When redpointing, it is a tactic you should cultivate to improve the efficiency of your efforts.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 14, 2009, 4:29 AM)
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karmiclimber
Jul 14, 2009, 5:02 AM
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Girl, if it keeps you from decking...stick clip!
I read what JT said...I guess grabbing the draw just feels "impure"...like bad form or something. Something a climber like ME would do haha.
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caughtinside
Jul 14, 2009, 5:02 AM
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jt512 wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: karmiclimber wrote: ITA. I think its one of those "bad habits" you just avoid by never starting... yea I think that probably describes it a lot better than I could. I don't think it's SO dangerous, but yea I've seen some pretty nasty stuff happen, and if you are so over your head or pumped that you have to grab the draw to clip, then there is a good chance that you're going to let go of the draw too... maybe with a lot of slack in the system. For a sport climber, you sure are naïve about redpoint tactics. Firstly, if you need to work out a hard move, and the section is not too steep to do it on toprope, then you need to get the next bolt clipped. You don't want to be taking repeated lead falls just to work a move, because every time you take a lead fall, you have to waste energy climbing back up to the move you want to work. Therefore, if you can manage to barely get the draw clipped in to the bolt from a bad clipping hold, then, by all means, grab the fucking draw, if it makes clipping the rope in easier. Secondly, sometimes there will just be a bolt where clipping the draw into the bolt is much harder than clipping the rope in a pre-hung draw, in which case, your first job on redpoint day will be to waste a burn putting the draws up. So you hang the draw from the desperate hold, then grab the draw to clip the rope. Grabbing draws is a habit you should avoid when on-sighting. When redpointing, it is a tactic you should cultivate to improve the efficiency of your efforts. Jay
Well said. There are a large number of tactics (known to the common climber as 'cheating') that can advance your climbing. Some are:
Grabbing quickdraws, cams and nuts
Aiding through sections
stick clipping
shoulder standing
batmanning
lassoing
rodeo clipping
etc
knowledge of and use of these cheats when appropriate really add to your bag of tricks, and will give you a huge confidence boost when you ask yourself "can I get to the top?" If you don't even try, you've already failed. Sure, a few people will rant and rave about your bad style. Some of these people will be legitimate hardmen and women, but they likely wouldn't care about your antics anyway. The rest will be 5.8 climbers with ethics pure as the driven snow. And who really cares what they think?
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granite_grrl
Jul 14, 2009, 11:38 AM
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karmiclimber wrote: Girl, if it keeps you from decking...stick clip! I read what JT said...I guess grabbing the draw just feels "impure"...like bad form or something. Something a climber like ME would do haha.
Factor2 - you obviously have never gone direct into the 2nd bolt so you can stick clip the 3rd. Another handy tool when working a route that might be over your head.
Okay I should probably stop now....I think I'm making people in this thread uncomfortable. 
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ClimbClimb
Jul 14, 2009, 12:12 PM
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limeydave wrote: Is grabbing a draw really that dangerous though? It's not something I do typically, but I've seen plenty of people do it without suffering life threatening injuries.
Not sure if my post worked before. I think thsi is consistent -- wouldn't the injuries be mangled hands or fingers, so not life-threatening, but... really disabling.
I knew someone that that happened to (finger stuck in carabener or some other piece of gear while falling). Seriously messed up finger and surgeries required.
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limeydave
Jul 14, 2009, 1:55 PM
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ClimbClimb wrote: limeydave wrote: Is grabbing a draw really that dangerous though? It's not something I do typically, but I've seen plenty of people do it without suffering life threatening injuries. Not sure if my post worked before. I think thsi is consistent -- wouldn't the injuries be mangled hands or fingers, so not life-threatening, but... really disabling. I knew someone that that happened to (finger stuck in carabener or some other piece of gear while falling). Seriously messed up finger and surgeries required.
I guess my problem here is that some people think that telling beginners about things like grabbing draws should be avoided because there is an element of danger involved. Get your finger caught in the gate and fall on that and you could easily loose a finger or worse. But so does the fall to that ledge our gumby is about to take.
I would rather we educate coz some folks are gonna do it anyway.
If your gonna do it here's what I think about...
Don't throw for the draw, take a deep breath and make it deliberate, slow it down, like that sketchy clip you want to get it right first time.
Don't try to grab with one finger in the biner.
Grab the dogbone if you can.
Stay away from the gate.
Get clipped in quick.
Be aware that if you are still gonna fall you before you clip you should let go and take the fall well rather than risk a hand injury by holding on for dear life.
I don't recommend it, the things I am cognizant of may not keep you safe, it's your decision, this is not a technique, it's a trick that some of us sometimes use in specific situations.
That's my shot at it - anyone else?
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rtwilli4
Jul 14, 2009, 2:26 PM
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caughtinside wrote: jt512 wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: karmiclimber wrote: ITA. I think its one of those "bad habits" you just avoid by never starting... yea I think that probably describes it a lot better than I could. I don't think it's SO dangerous, but yea I've seen some pretty nasty stuff happen, and if you are so over your head or pumped that you have to grab the draw to clip, then there is a good chance that you're going to let go of the draw too... maybe with a lot of slack in the system. For a sport climber, you sure are naïve about redpoint tactics. Firstly, if you need to work out a hard move, and the section is not too steep to do it on toprope, then you need to get the next bolt clipped. You don't want to be taking repeated lead falls just to work a move, because every time you take a lead fall, you have to waste energy climbing back up to the move you want to work. Therefore, if you can manage to barely get the draw clipped in to the bolt from a bad clipping hold, then, by all means, grab the fucking draw, if it makes clipping the rope in easier. Secondly, sometimes there will just be a bolt where clipping the draw into the bolt is much harder than clipping the rope in a pre-hung draw, in which case, your first job on redpoint day will be to waste a burn putting the draws up. So you hang the draw from the desperate hold, then grab the draw to clip the rope. Grabbing draws is a habit you should avoid when on-sighting. When redpointing, it is a tactic you should cultivate to improve the efficiency of your efforts. Jay Well said. There are a large number of tactics (known to the common climber as 'cheating') that can advance your climbing. Some are: Grabbing quickdraws, cams and nuts Aiding through sections stick clipping shoulder standing batmanning lassoing rodeo clipping etc knowledge of and use of these cheats when appropriate really add to your bag of tricks, and will give you a huge confidence boost when you ask yourself "can I get to the top?" If you don't even try, you've already failed. Sure, a few people will rant and rave about your bad style. Some of these people will be legitimate hardmen and women, but they likely wouldn't care about your antics anyway. The rest will be 5.8 climbers with ethics pure as the driven snow. And who really cares what they think?
I'm not naive about those things and I think this will be the third time that I have said this here... yes I've grabbed draws and No I don't think it's a good thing to bring up when discussing with a beginner what his or her first set of draws is going to be.
As far as the style thing goes, I think it would be pretty dumb for any sport climber to say that they don't do those things listed above in order to keep good style. I mean sport climbing is basically aid climbing to begin with so it would make no sense to try to do it in classy style.
Of course I do the things above, but rarey. I have never been on one route more than three times unless it is a route that I guide on. I just don't enjoy doing routes more than a few times and where I live there are enough routes at my grade and harder that I just lose motivation and focus on one route because there are so many other ones I want to do. I know it would help my climbing to project stuff and I want to find a good one this season but we'll have to wait and see how long my attention span will be.
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