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cush


Jul 12, 2009, 3:19 PM
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link cams as part of first set of cams
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the following picture in the post pics of your rack thread got me thinking. i've been slowly piecing together my rack and all i have left to buy are cams. in this picture i noticed how, instead of having BD cams all the way from big to small, he supplimented the middle sizes with link cams instead. i was thinking of doing the same for buying my first cams. opinions?




sungam


Jul 12, 2009, 4:11 PM
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Re: [cush] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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He didn't supplement, he replaced.
Personally I'd get the a rack of C4's first, but maybe that's just me. I figure more pieces are better for a beginner - sewin' it up and all that. And since 2 C4's = 1 linkcam pricewise...


a-e-jones


Jul 12, 2009, 4:14 PM
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Re: [cush] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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you can buy two tcus for the price of 1 link cam, you'll need numbers more then you'll need the extended range


james481


Jul 12, 2009, 4:17 PM
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Re: [cush] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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As a trad noob just assembling my rack as well, take my advice with a grain of salt, but personally I would say no. I think Link cams make a better back-up / double piece than your primary cam for a given size. Sure, Link cams have an awesome range, but you'll still need just as many cams to climb any given route, and Link cams are quite heavy and do need some special consideration when placing as compared to something like a C4. Placements that do not allow the Link cam to rotate to the direction of pull can put nasty torque on the linkages between the cam parts, causing them to fail. There has been at least one case of this causing the cam to literally blow apart and (if I recall correctly) resulted in a ground fall. Also, the lack of thumb loop and tendency for them to twist around on their skinny slings makes Link cams more difficult to place properly one handed, at least for me, though I'm guessing this could be mitigated with more practice on my part. All that being said, I do have a red Link cam as a backup to my C4, and do find it quite useful sometimes.


hafilax


Jul 12, 2009, 4:19 PM
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Re: [cush] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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That would be the heaviest and most expensive rack of cams possible.

You have to be a little careful with link cam placements. They aren't as forgiving as C4s in weird spots.

I view link cams as a good doubling up cam where you might need 1 extra cam for a pitch but of unknown size. It's a good backup piece but I wouldn't base a rack around them.


sungam


Jul 12, 2009, 4:29 PM
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Re: [hafilax] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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hafilax wrote:
You have to be a little careful with link cam placements. They aren't as forgiving as C4s in weird spots.
Personally, I'd say that they were actually better in some weird spots, though C4's have their spots too.


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Jul 12, 2009, 4:36 PM
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Re: [cush] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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It may sound like a good theory.

In my opinion, and take it as that - my opinion; link cams are a specialized piece of hardware. They cover an immense range and that may be your downfall if you get a set like what is pictured. I would recommend getting a regular set of cams and learn the sizes that they work in. If you find yourself continually running out of two sizes that are close to each other, then supplement your second set of cams with link cams.

For the price of one link cam you can get two regular cams. This will train your eyes/hands to figure out what size of pro that you need for that placement. Gimmickry won't make you climb better.


hafilax


Jul 12, 2009, 4:54 PM
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Re: [sungam] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
hafilax wrote:
You have to be a little careful with link cam placements. They aren't as forgiving as C4s in weird spots.
Personally, I'd say that they were actually better in some weird spots, though C4's have their spots too.
Ever hear of a C4 shattering? It probably does depend on the features of the local rock. I've always felt that there is a lot of lateral play in the link cams with all of the joints and that the material is rather thin when compared to a C4.


sungam


Jul 12, 2009, 5:05 PM
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Re: [hafilax] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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hafilax wrote:
sungam wrote:
hafilax wrote:
You have to be a little careful with link cam placements. They aren't as forgiving as C4s in weird spots.
Personally, I'd say that they were actually better in some weird spots, though C4's have their spots too.
Ever hear of a C4 shattering? It probably does depend on the features of the local rock. I've always felt that there is a lot of lateral play in the link cams with all of the joints and that the material is rather thin when compared to a C4.
Yep - so in funky pods I'd rather place a fixed lobe peice.
In flares and some funky sided cracks I <3 t3h hinged lobes.

Similarly, I prefer C4's for splitters, but trango maxcams (asymmetrical) can often be teased into funky cracks, like the horizontal ones that juggy shist can make.


harpo_the_climber


Jul 12, 2009, 8:53 PM
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Re: [hafilax] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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Can someone link me to the thread about link cams shattering? I didn't find that when I did my search.

Personally, I have a set of C4s as my first set of cams, and link cams as my second.

hafilax wrote:
sungam wrote:
hafilax wrote:
You have to be a little careful with link cam placements. They aren't as forgiving as C4s in weird spots.
Personally, I'd say that they were actually better in some weird spots, though C4's have their spots too.
Ever hear of a C4 shattering? It probably does depend on the features of the local rock. I've always felt that there is a lot of lateral play in the link cams with all of the joints and that the material is rather thin when compared to a C4.


billcoe_


Jul 12, 2009, 9:18 PM
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Re: [cush] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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cush wrote:
the following picture in the post pics of your rack thread got me thinking. i've been slowly piecing together my rack and all i have left to buy are cams. in this picture i noticed how, instead of having BD cams all the way from big to small, he supplimented the middle sizes with link cams instead. i was thinking of doing the same for buying my first cams. opinions?

If it was me, knowing what I know now and not already owning every cam ever made like I do: I would look on Ebay and buy used Metolius. The C4s are nice but are not discounted much used. Supplement it with a large Wild country friend, say a #4 and maybe a 3.5 ...also used. Those Metolius cams are damn burly and you could near buy doubles of the full range and have change left over for beer and hookers.


healyje


Jul 12, 2009, 9:28 PM
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Re: [cush] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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Link Cams, and for that matter Max Cams, are specialty items best used to augment a rack for specific reasons. Neither really has any business on a beginners rack.


knieveltech


Jul 13, 2009, 12:17 AM
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Re: [healyje] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
Link Cams, and for that matter Max Cams, are specialty items best used to augment a rack for specific reasons. Neither really has any business on a beginners rack.

Couldn't disagree more. Having an "oh shit" piece (like a link cam) as an ace in the hole is fantastic. I see no reason why one should wait to pick one of these up.


vegastradguy


Jul 13, 2009, 12:25 AM
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Re: [knieveltech] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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knieveltech wrote:
healyje wrote:
Link Cams, and for that matter Max Cams, are specialty items best used to augment a rack for specific reasons. Neither really has any business on a beginners rack.

Couldn't disagree more. Having an "oh shit" piece (like a link cam) as an ace in the hole is fantastic. I see no reason why one should wait to pick one of these up.

first, a beginner should have no need of an 'oh shit' piece on their rack. beginners should be gaining mileage on routes that they are not likely to fall on and learning how to place gear properly. a cam like a link cam will only encourage them to stuff a cam in and go.

second, stuffing a link cam in is asking to lose it. some knucklehead tester of said link cam did this on , get this, Cat in the Hat in RR and managed to fix what was probably a VERY expensive prototype of the purple link cam- while protecting the 5.5 crux of the first pitch. a nut in the same slot would have done fine.

better, imho, to use more traditional gear to gain a solid foundation of understanding on how to place gear, how to pick the correct size quickly and efficiently, and how to identify a good vs a marginal placement. once you do this, you'll be in a much better position to not only better appreciate the link cam, but also to understand its limitations.


healyje


Jul 13, 2009, 10:37 AM
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Re: [knieveltech] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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knieveltech wrote:
Couldn't disagree more. Having an "oh shit" piece (like a link cam) as an ace in the hole is fantastic.

There are lots of ways to break or lose a Link Cam in a crack - they require considerable thought to use - they and Max Cams are the last cams a beginner or intermediate climber should have in their hand when things are going "oh shit".


knieveltech


Jul 13, 2009, 10:41 AM
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Re: [healyje] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
knieveltech wrote:
Couldn't disagree more. Having an "oh shit" piece (like a link cam) as an ace in the hole is fantastic.

There are lots of ways to break or lose a Link Cam in a crack - they require considerable thought to use - they and Max Cams are the last cams a beginner or intermediate climber should have in their hand when things are going "oh shit".

You're not the first climber I've heard this from but other than the ski track incident (which looked to me like a shitty potentially cam-eating placement regardless) I haven't heard of breakage and definitely haven't encountered any situations where loss/breakage seemed likely. You sure this isn't FUD based on apparent complexity?


hafilax


Jul 13, 2009, 10:48 AM
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Re: [harpo_the_climber] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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harpo_the_climber wrote:
Can someone link me to the thread about link cams shattering? I didn't find that when I did my search.

Personally, I have a set of C4s as my first set of cams, and link cams as my second.

hafilax wrote:
sungam wrote:
hafilax wrote:
You have to be a little careful with link cam placements. They aren't as forgiving as C4s in weird spots.
Personally, I'd say that they were actually better in some weird spots, though C4's have their spots too.
Ever hear of a C4 shattering? It probably does depend on the features of the local rock. I've always felt that there is a lot of lateral play in the link cams with all of the joints and that the material is rather thin when compared to a C4.
You may want to work on your searching skills. I guess it helps to know what one is looking for. Wink
http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I guess 'shattered' was a little inflammatory. I don't mean to say that link cams are bad, you just have to place them a little more carefully than a conventional cam. They don't handle torques very well if they're locked in place. For good placements they are amazing.


healyje


Jul 13, 2009, 12:08 PM
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Re: [knieveltech] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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knieveltech wrote:
healyje wrote:
knieveltech wrote:
Couldn't disagree more. Having an "oh shit" piece (like a link cam) as an ace in the hole is fantastic.

There are lots of ways to break or lose a Link Cam in a crack - they require considerable thought to use - they and Max Cams are the last cams a beginner or intermediate climber should have in their hand when things are going "oh shit".

You're not the first climber I've heard this from but other than the ski track incident (which looked to me like a shitty potentially cam-eating placement regardless) I haven't heard of breakage and definitely haven't encountered any situations where loss/breakage seemed likely. You sure this isn't FUD based on apparent complexity?

A guy here who went to look at LST after the accident ended up breaking his own Link Cam while looking to see how the previous one had broken. There is nothing "apparent" about the Link Cam's complexity or the fragility of it's links. Any placement that exerts significant sideways force on those linkages can pop them which includes placements where the stem angles over an edge. A Link Cam placement needs to be clean relative to the stem pointing [unobstructed] towards the anticipated load.

Again, this isn't a device beginners should be using and it would be the last piece I'd be reaching for in a thrutch.


knieveltech


Jul 13, 2009, 12:14 PM
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Re: [healyje] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
knieveltech wrote:
healyje wrote:
knieveltech wrote:
Couldn't disagree more. Having an "oh shit" piece (like a link cam) as an ace in the hole is fantastic.

There are lots of ways to break or lose a Link Cam in a crack - they require considerable thought to use - they and Max Cams are the last cams a beginner or intermediate climber should have in their hand when things are going "oh shit".

You're not the first climber I've heard this from but other than the ski track incident (which looked to me like a shitty potentially cam-eating placement regardless) I haven't heard of breakage and definitely haven't encountered any situations where loss/breakage seemed likely. You sure this isn't FUD based on apparent complexity?

A guy here who went to look at LST after the accident ended up breaking his own Link Cam while looking to see how the previous one had broken. There is nothing "apparent" about the Link Cam's complexity or the fragility of it's links. Any placement that exerts significant sideways force on those linkages can pop them which includes placements where the stem angles over an edge. A Link Cam placement needs to be clean relative to the stem pointing [unobstructed] towards the anticipated load.

Again, this isn't a device beginners should be using and it would be the last piece I'd be reaching for in a thrutch.


Yeah, I read the initial writeup on the incident and I can definitely see how it happened. I guess my question is could you reasonably expect a C4 to go in that placement and take a fall without coming out a mangled wreck?


healyje


Jul 13, 2009, 12:26 PM
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Re: [knieveltech] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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knieveltech wrote:
I guess my question is could you reasonably expect a C4 to go in that placement and take a fall without coming out a mangled wreck?

Yes, or a Metolius.


shimanilami


Jul 13, 2009, 12:35 PM
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Re: [healyje] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
knieveltech wrote:
I guess my question is could you reasonably expect a C4 to go in that placement and take a fall without coming out a mangled wreck?

Yes, or a Metolius.

Or an Alien ....

(Ohh, SNAP!!! No you di'nt!!! Oh yes, I did!!!)


vegastradguy


Jul 13, 2009, 12:39 PM
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healyje wrote:
knieveltech wrote:
I guess my question is could you reasonably expect a C4 to go in that placement and take a fall without coming out a mangled wreck?

Yes, or a Metolius.

having been on LST like a week before that incident, i know exactly which pod the guy used, and i passed it up after placing a C4 in that spot and thinking....eh, not as bomber as i'd like. a better placement (#3 C4) was had 6" higher, and i whipped onto that like 3 times before giving up, and then my buddy whipped on it a couple times as well...at any rate, i'd say the C4, if it held, would probably have been fine, but in all honesty, it didnt look like it would have held.


healyje


Jul 13, 2009, 12:41 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] link cams as part of first set of cams [In reply to]
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Yes, or an Alien - provided the stem doesn't pop from the head, the axle wasn't misdrilled, and the stem loop is actually swaged.

(Ohh SNAP, maybe it will!!! Maybe it won't!!!)


shimanilami


Jul 13, 2009, 12:46 PM
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Another time, another place, another thread ...


tedman


Jul 13, 2009, 3:03 PM
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like has been said, I'd snap up a set of C4s and get a link cam or two as double sizes. I carry the largest link cam and use it as an 'oh shit' piece, but it generally gets sunk into anchors rather than used on route. its GREAT for anchors tho!

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