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critterdude542


Jul 17, 2009, 12:51 PM
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multi-pitch: how do you set up your anchor
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Ok, so i know HOW to make a SRENE or ERNEST anchor and what they look like. but say you are on a multipitch trad route with no bolts. physically how do you set an anchor. do you plug a bomber piece, hang from it and work from there or do you usually find a ledge or good stance and build it there?

like i said if I were at a crack on the ground i would know how to do this but i wonder how you guys out there do it when actually on a tall route or mountain.

thanks


Partner cracklover


Jul 17, 2009, 12:58 PM
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critterdude542 wrote:
Ok, so i know HOW to make a SRENE or ERNEST anchor and what they look like. but say you are on a multipitch trad route with no bolts. physically how do you set an anchor. do you plug a bomber piece, hang from it and work from there or do you usually find a ledge or good stance and build it there?

like i said if I were at a crack on the ground i would know how to do this but i wonder how you guys out there do it when actually on a tall route or mountain.

thanks

It Depends(TM)

If it's a big enough ledge, I call "off belay" as soon as I realize I'm going to be setting up here.

If I can get a really good first piece, and time is of the essence, I clip into that directly with the rope, call off belay, and work on setting up the rest of the anchor.

If the anchor is going to be finicky, I stay on belay until I've got the whole thing put together before calling off belay.

You want to give your second as much time as possible to put their shoes on, get a bite to eat, work out any tangles in the rope, etc. But you also don't want to screw yourself and get off belay when you're not really ready.

And this *should* go without saying, but I guess I need to say it anyway - once you call down off belay, you damn well better be careful. You screw up and fall, and you're ruining at least two people's day!

GO


PNUT


Jul 17, 2009, 1:00 PM
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You got to work with what you got. Ledges are nice if they are there, but if you have to hang you want to get in a great piece first.


saltydog


Jul 17, 2009, 1:18 PM
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keep track of how much rope you have to work with.


coastal_climber


Jul 17, 2009, 1:54 PM
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I either get to a stance I'm comfortable with, or plug in a piece to work off of.




bill413


Jul 17, 2009, 3:18 PM
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cracklover wrote:
It Depends(TM)

If it's a big enough ledge, I call "off belay" as soon as I realize I'm going to be setting up here.

If I can get a really good first piece, and time is of the essence, I clip into that directly with the rope, call off belay, and work on setting up the rest of the anchor.

If the anchor is going to be finicky, I stay on belay until I've got the whole thing put together before calling off belay.

You want to give your second as much time as possible to put their shoes on, get a bite to eat, work out any tangles in the rope, etc. But you also don't want to screw yourself and get off belay when you're not really ready.

And this *should* go without saying, but I guess I need to say it anyway - once you call down off belay, you damn well better be careful. You screw up and fall, and you're ruining at least two people's day!

GO

Pretty much what he said. Good ledge, I get a good piece, clip, and go off belay. Bad ledge, I build the complete anchor and tie into it before going off belay. It's tempting to go off belay too fast - have to watch for that.


reno


Jul 17, 2009, 3:52 PM
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Re: [cracklover] multi-pitch: how do you set up your anchor [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
critterdude542 wrote:
Ok, so i know HOW to make a SRENE or ERNEST anchor and what they look like. but say you are on a multipitch trad route with no bolts. physically how do you set an anchor. do you plug a bomber piece, hang from it and work from there or do you usually find a ledge or good stance and build it there?

like i said if I were at a crack on the ground i would know how to do this but i wonder how you guys out there do it when actually on a tall route or mountain.

thanks

It Depends(TM)

If it's a big enough ledge, I call "off belay" as soon as I realize I'm going to be setting up here.

If I can get a really good first piece, and time is of the essence, I clip into that directly with the rope, call off belay, and work on setting up the rest of the anchor.

If the anchor is going to be finicky, I stay on belay until I've got the whole thing put together before calling off belay.

You want to give your second as much time as possible to put their shoes on, get a bite to eat, work out any tangles in the rope, etc. But you also don't want to screw yourself and get off belay when you're not really ready.

And this *should* go without saying, but I guess I need to say it anyway - once you call down off belay, you damn well better be careful. You screw up and fall, and you're ruining at least two people's day!

GO

That. ^^^^


bill413


Jul 17, 2009, 4:32 PM
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Re: [critterdude542] multi-pitch: how do you set up your anchor [In reply to]
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critterdude542 wrote:
Ok, so i know HOW to make a SRENE or ERNEST anchor and what they look like. but say you are on a multipitch trad route with no bolts. physically how do you set an anchor.

So, now that you've gotten some polite & useful answers....

If you only know how to set up anchors where you have 2 bolts, you really don't know how to set up SRENE anchors. You know how to set up a specific (or maybe 2) type of SRENE anchor. Welcome to learning.


marc801


Jul 17, 2009, 6:03 PM
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Re: [critterdude542] multi-pitch: how do you set up your anchor [In reply to]
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critterdude542 wrote:
but say you are on a multipitch trad route with no bolts. physically how do you set an anchor. do you plug a bomber piece, hang from it and work from there or do you usually find a ledge or good stance and build it there?
On almost all trad routes, pitches are based on where there are ledges, not the length of the rope. Sometimes you may do only a 30' pitch in order to avoid a hanging belay, as it may well be faster to do so.


adamtd


Aug 22, 2009, 3:16 PM
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Re: [critterdude542] multi-pitch: how do you set up your anchor [In reply to]
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As was said already, if the ledge is large enough, I try to place a piece, clip-in, and call "off-belay". This gives my partner time to get ready while I set-up the anchor. If it's a hanging belay or a small ledge, I'll put in at least two pieces and equalize them with a runner before I call "off-belay". Often times I just build the anchor then call "off-belay" if time isn't of the essence.

Most people know the acronym SRENE as solid, redundant, equalized, no extension (I learned it from John Long's How to Rock Climb - 1st edition). On a climbing course with NOLS (National Outdoor Leadership School) I learned a second tool for building anchors. It's the "8-point system" and it's used in conjunction with SRENE.

The 8-point system: Each piece receives a point value from 1-4 depending on how solid it is (4 being bomber). Only natural anchors (trees, pinches, horns, chockstones) and bolts can get a 4. The highest grade a peice of gear you place can get is a 3... this is due to the human factor (Yes, I know the human factor exists in slinging a tree or a horn as well). Of course a tree doesn't have to be a 4, and a cam doesn't have to be a 3. If the tree is small, or the cam is in poor quality rock, you can give it fewer points (or just find a better piece). The idea is that you want your anchor to total 8 points. So, two bomber bolts equals 8 points and a good anchor. Two bomber cams and a bomber hex equals 9, but the two cams alone would only equal 6. It's also possible to have several pieces that are only 2's... perhaps several nuts in crappy rock but you're at your rope's end and have to stop there... 4 crappy nuts (rated 2) equals 8 points.

I like this tool and used it often when I was learning. Whenever I teach someone how to build anchors whether it be a top-rope anchor or a multi-pitch anchor I use this method in addition to SRENE. Setting-up anchors and knowing if they're sound has become second nature to me, so I don't go through and consciously total up the points. The principals are still there.

As I progressed in my climbing and gained experience, I found that I was willing to make exceptions to both SRENE and the 8-point rule. Examples of exceptions are the sliding-X which has extension, so it violates the SRENE principle, and I've certainly belayed off two cams before as well. Everytime I make the exception though, I do it knowingly and consciously... maybe not willingly. If you lead trad long enough you'll know what I mean by "maybe not willingly".

I hope this helps.
Cheers,
Adam


majid_sabet


Aug 22, 2009, 7:26 PM
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the pieces look bomber but the angle of how the bottom two are rigged looks bad. All you got to do rotate the image to see how things are oriented.




marc801


Aug 22, 2009, 8:55 PM
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adamtd wrote:
As was said already, if the ledge is large enough, I try to place a piece, clip-in, and call "off-belay". This gives my partner time to get ready while I set-up the anchor. If it's a hanging belay or a small ledge, I'll put in at least two pieces and equalize them with a runner before I call "off-belay". Often times I just build the anchor then call "off-belay" if time isn't of the essence.

Most people know the acronym SRENE as solid, redundant, equalized, no extension (I learned it from John Long's How to Rock Climb - 1st edition). On a climbing course with NOLS (National Outdoor Leadership School) I learned a second tool for building anchors. It's the "8-point system" and it's used in conjunction with SRENE.

The 8-point system: Each piece receives a point value from 1-4 depending on how solid it is (4 being bomber). Only natural anchors (trees, pinches, horns, chockstones) and bolts can get a 4. The highest grade a peice of gear you place can get is a 3... this is due to the human factor (Yes, I know the human factor exists in slinging a tree or a horn as well). Of course a tree doesn't have to be a 4, and a cam doesn't have to be a 3. If the tree is small, or the cam is in poor quality rock, you can give it fewer points (or just find a better piece). The idea is that you want your anchor to total 8 points. So, two bomber bolts equals 8 points and a good anchor. Two bomber cams and a bomber hex equals 9, but the two cams alone would only equal 6. It's also possible to have several pieces that are only 2's... perhaps several nuts in crappy rock but you're at your rope's end and have to stop there... 4 crappy nuts (rated 2) equals 8 points.

I like this tool and used it often when I was learning. Whenever I teach someone how to build anchors whether it be a top-rope anchor or a multi-pitch anchor I use this method in addition to SRENE. Setting-up anchors and knowing if they're sound has become second nature to me, so I don't go through and consciously total up the points. The principals are still there.

As I progressed in my climbing and gained experience, I found that I was willing to make exceptions to both SRENE and the 8-point rule. Examples of exceptions are the sliding-X which has extension, so it violates the SRENE principle, and I've certainly belayed off two cams before as well. Everytime I make the exception though, I do it knowingly and consciously... maybe not willingly. If you lead trad long enough you'll know what I mean by "maybe not willingly".
I'll say. Talk about the anal retentive climber.
Using that system, any party of noobs can make any 4 pitch climb into a 2 day epic.

OH NO! EXTENSION!!!!!! Yer gonna die!!!!!!!

Is this really the bullshit that's being taught today?


shockabuku


Aug 22, 2009, 10:02 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
the pieces look bomber but the angle of how the bottom two are rigged looks bad. All you got to do rotate the image to see how things are oriented.


That's a weird configuration for the indicated direction of loading.


uni_jim


Aug 22, 2009, 10:41 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
the pieces look bomber but the angle of how the bottom two are rigged looks bad. All you got to do rotate the image to see how things are oriented.

[IMG]http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/7341/anchor1.jpg[/IMG]

what i see in this photo is a solid two piece anchor with an extra cam put in to take the upward pull. I do not see a way in which the bottom cam would even be loaded until the next lead, and even then the angle would not cause a problem. Please correct me if I am wrong.


bennydh


Aug 22, 2009, 10:50 PM
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Don't worry majid will correct you even if you are not wrong.

Here we go! Laugh


shockabuku


Aug 22, 2009, 10:52 PM
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uni_jim wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
the pieces look bomber but the angle of how the bottom two are rigged looks bad. All you got to do rotate the image to see how things are oriented.


what i see in this photo is a solid two piece anchor with an extra cam put in to take the upward pull. I do not see a way in which the bottom cam would even be loaded until the next lead, and even then the angle would not cause a problem. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Note that the line from the head of the #1 Camalot to the master point of the anchor isn't straight. If the anchor is oriented to it's expected direction of pull (I would assume, since all strands are under some amount of tension) then that U stem cam with the red biner will be loaded in opposition to the #1 Camalot. Not really ideal, and it's why I mentioned that it's a weird configuration for the indicated direction of loading.


apeman_e


Aug 23, 2009, 11:07 AM
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adamtd wrote:
As was said already, if the ledge is large enough, I try to place a piece, clip-in, and call "off-belay". This gives my partner time to get ready while I set-up the anchor. If it's a hanging belay or a small ledge, I'll put in at least two pieces and equalize them with a runner before I call "off-belay". Often times I just build the anchor then call "off-belay" if time isn't of the essence.

Most people know the acronym SRENE as solid, redundant, equalized, no extension (I learned it from John Long's How to Rock Climb - 1st edition). On a climbing course with NOLS (National Outdoor Leadership School) I learned a second tool for building anchors. It's the "8-point system" and it's used in conjunction with SRENE.

The 8-point system: Each piece receives a point value from 1-4 depending on how solid it is (4 being bomber). Only natural anchors (trees, pinches, horns, chockstones) and bolts can get a 4. The highest grade a peice of gear you place can get is a 3... this is due to the human factor (Yes, I know the human factor exists in slinging a tree or a horn as well). Of course a tree doesn't have to be a 4, and a cam doesn't have to be a 3. If the tree is small, or the cam is in poor quality rock, you can give it fewer points (or just find a better piece). The idea is that you want your anchor to total 8 points. So, two bomber bolts equals 8 points and a good anchor. Two bomber cams and a bomber hex equals 9, but the two cams alone would only equal 6. It's also possible to have several pieces that are only 2's... perhaps several nuts in crappy rock but you're at your rope's end and have to stop there... 4 crappy nuts (rated 2) equals 8 points.

I like this tool and used it often when I was learning. Whenever I teach someone how to build anchors whether it be a top-rope anchor or a multi-pitch anchor I use this method in addition to SRENE. Setting-up anchors and knowing if they're sound has become second nature to me, so I don't go through and consciously total up the points. The principals are still there.

As I progressed in my climbing and gained experience, I found that I was willing to make exceptions to both SRENE and the 8-point rule. Examples of exceptions are the sliding-X which has extension, so it violates the SRENE principle, and I've certainly belayed off two cams before as well. Everytime I make the exception though, I do it knowingly and consciously... maybe not willingly. If you lead trad long enough you'll know what I mean by "maybe not willingly".

I hope this helps.
Cheers,
Adam

This is retarded ^

Most real climbers know that you can only calculate the bomberness of an anchor using a complex logarithmic formula that I do not have the endurance to repeat here.

btw, the sliding x probably shouldn't be looked at as an exception. There is no proof that shock loading is real. But hey, no one really knows for sure...

The scariest part is "4 crappy nuts equals 8." Is it acceptable to have eight 1 point placements? Maybe there is need after all for the eight slung nalgene bottles-stuffed-into-a-constriction method! I also saw a pic (I think it was on this site) of a slung dead turtle chock, but you may have to rate that a .5...

Oh yeah, and a BFT is actually a 9.78 on your scale.


chriss


Aug 23, 2009, 3:10 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
the pieces look bomber but the angle of how the bottom two are rigged looks bad. All you got to do rotate the image to see how things are oriented.

[IMG]http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/7341/anchor1.jpg[/IMG]

Not seeing it! Maybe it's upside down?


billcoe_


Aug 23, 2009, 9:32 PM
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Majid: it's only an issue if it's an outwards. Since it's going to be an upwards or a downwards fall, this is a great anchor for a multipitch route. The leader is going to get a great first piece in (I'm only including that despite there not being any evidence because thats what I like to see) Myself, I also like to include a nut or 2 so the leader has the cams, I use the rope as it frees up slings for the leader and is the best thing you have to tie it together and at least a locker (lower biner in this instance} for the anchors, but this is good.


moose_droppings


Aug 23, 2009, 10:06 PM
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billcoe_ wrote:
Since it's going to be an upwards or a downwards fall, ...

Now that's a different gravity than we have around here.

Wink

Seriously, it's a pretty solid looking two piece anchor. I might of tried putting the directional on the power point. Still solid though


quiteatingmysteak


Aug 23, 2009, 10:42 PM
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Like Jim Donini said, #3 Camalot.


king_rat


Aug 24, 2009, 2:32 AM
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Most multi pitch routes belay from ledges if its practical to do so it. Sometimes when its not possible belays are hanging(i.e. you are hanging directly off your gear) itís a little uncomfortable to hang in your harness for a long time, and it means you donít have any room to organise your gear.

As to the anchor posted by coastal_climber it looks like a reasonable anchor I would belay off that quite happily. A cautious climber may have opted for a third piece of gear for the downward pull but its not necessary.


Partner j_ung


Aug 24, 2009, 5:54 AM
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Re: [cracklover] multi-pitch: how do you set up your anchor [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
If it's a big enough ledge, I call "off belay" as soon as I realize I'm going to be setting up here.

I had a flash of vicarious fear as soon as I read this. Maybe I'm just a chickenshit (it's also possible I misread it), but I like to be attached to something -- at least that one bomber piece -- before going off belay. And typically, I go ahead and build the whole anchor and clip in before doing so, despite any potential lost time.


Guran


Aug 24, 2009, 6:27 AM
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j_ung wrote:
cracklover wrote:
If it's a big enough ledge, I call "off belay" as soon as I realize I'm going to be setting up here.

I had a flash of vicarious fear as soon as I read this. Maybe I'm just a chickenshit (it's also possible I misread it), but I like to be attached to something -- at least that one bomber piece -- before going off belay. And typically, I go ahead and build the whole anchor and clip in before doing so, despite any potential lost time.
Perhaps you just have different ideas as to what a "big enough" ledge is...

Me, I ask myself: "Is this ledge big enough for me to screw up without taking the big plunge?" If so, I might go off belay unattached. Otherwise not before at least cloveing one piece.


As to "8 points" and such, my rule of thumb is something along the lines of "enough plus one"
One bolt is really strong enough, so I want two.
Two solid pieces are really enough, so I want three. Or a really good stance. Or... oh never mind. I just want an anchor that holds and I want it ready before nightfall.


Partner j_ung


Aug 24, 2009, 7:13 AM
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Re: [Guran] multi-pitch: how do you set up your anchor [In reply to]
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Guran wrote:
j_ung wrote:
cracklover wrote:
If it's a big enough ledge, I call "off belay" as soon as I realize I'm going to be setting up here.

I had a flash of vicarious fear as soon as I read this. Maybe I'm just a chickenshit (it's also possible I misread it), but I like to be attached to something -- at least that one bomber piece -- before going off belay. And typically, I go ahead and build the whole anchor and clip in before doing so, despite any potential lost time.
Perhaps you just have different ideas as to what a "big enough" ledge is...

That's certainly possible, and Gabe is certainly grown up enough to make the best choice for the given situation.

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