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moof


Jul 23, 2009, 4:48 PM
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Dorkalette
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Crosspost from bigwalls.com...

I'm probably a couple years behind the times, but I've been scratching my head over the Equalette, and frankly don't like it. So I did some thinking, and came up with an alternate idea I like better that I think is slightly less dorky. I figure using SRENE is a valid point for looking at any anchor.

BTW, SRENE is an oxymoron. You can't really have equalization without any extension. SRELE ("surreal", Strong, Redundant, Equalized, Little Extension) better describes what we really want/need in a climbing anchor. Redundancy is not just multiple pieces, but also that no single point failure exists (i.e. you should be able to cut any one point in the system, and not have a complete anchor failure, a single sling in a sliding X is not redundant for example).

Cordalette: Cordalettes don't equalize except for one direction (straight down if that's how they are tied), but are redundant, and usually have little extension. Also most cordalettes are too short for 4 pieces of gear unless they are very closely spaced, or you do some additional tricks (i.e. 2 pieces of gear into one leg). I particularly hate what a cordalette does for a fixed line on a wall if the last move was a traversing piece (i.e. the angle of pull changes 90 degrees when the cleaner gets to the anchor, leaving the cordellete looking FUBAR'ed either while jugging or once at the anchor). I've used the cordalette on walls, but hated the lack of equalization for anything but vertical loads.



Equallete: Largo's contribution is a decent one, but I'm just not a fan. It is redundant, equalized, and has little extension, which is great. It works with 3 or 4 piece anchors, is sort of equalized (dynamic sliding equalization between two statically equalized V's), also for 3 piece anchors the odd man out gets 50% of the load no matter what, with the remaining 2 statically equalized for the remaining 50%. However in the case of purely horizonal pull in my jugging scenario the sliding region quickly maxes out and again you have only one piece taking the load. Also it calls for two lockers to create the powerpoint, and has two big fat knots that are fixed in place. On paper the Equalette sounds pretty good, but it just doesn't float my boat. A few variations exist that get rid of the 2 locking biner requirement, but those result in bigger knots, generally it just isn't as flexible a system as I want and still doesn't solve the horizontal fixed line scenario.



Triple/Quad sliding X: A single sling/cordalette loop can be looped through 2, 3, 4, or even more pieces to get a equalized anchor, but does not have redundancy, has lots of extension, and Largo argued that it didn't really equalize well due to friction at the master point. More horrifying is that it is hard to inspect if the looping was done right, in which case the results can be quite bad if one piece pops. Lastly, clipping biners into a loaded power point is really obnoxious for the 3 and 4 piece cases. On the plus side it does actually do some equalization in the horizontal load case.



Alpine Equalizer: Trango's wiz-bang toy is NOT redundant, has a lot of extension, but is equalized (and spiffy looking). At $40 a shot, it's also a lot more expensive and specialized than folks like me like. Mal from Trango says (right in the instructions http://trango.com/...rWebInstructions.pdf) you can either A) tie an overhand knot in the center strand to limit extension or B) tie three cloves in the protection biners. Option A confuses the hell out of me because the main loop is a single strand, and is not sewn to the little loop with the metal rings (they share a rash guard, but that's it), so in the case of either of the two outer pieces popping, there is no improvement in redundancy or extension, WTF? Option B is relatively brilliant. You create 3 V's of webbing that cradle your biner. Voila, redundancy, limited extension, but there is no longer full equalization. Equalization is down to 50/50 between 2 pieces, with the third sitting there doing nothing (unless one of the two loaded pieces pops). I like this a lot, as it's as close to SRENE as I think you can get without lots of complicated limiter knots. However it is limited to 3 pieces, and costs $40 a pop.



Well Shit. Lots of options, none perfect, and only the dorky Equallete and cloved alpine equalizer meeting the SRENE/SRELE (and again, only 50/50 load sharing guaranteed), and even the equalette fails the SRENE/SRELE criteria for horizontal loads (depends on exact gear location of course). So either $40 a shot, nerdy equalette, or find something new.

So I played with a bunch of crap (making lots of needlessly complex setups) and came up with a simple variation that comes close without being complex, or requiring anything special. It's just combining Mal's clove hitch fix to the Tripled sliding X to come up with something with all the benefits, without being a specialized piece of gear or costing $40 a pop.

3 Piece Anchor:
1. Start like with a cordalette, looping through all three biners.
2. Pull the strands down and overlap the loops to create your master point and wiggle to get the strands even them out (clip a biner in to keep it open).
3. Clove-hitch the loops to the 3 protection biners, and tug on the master point to cinch them up.

SRENE'ish: Redundant, check. Equalized, sort of (statically equalized for downward pull, but off center pull loads 2 pieces 50% each), Little Extension, check. Horizontal fixed line case, check (a little ugly, but maintains 50/50 equalization). Essentially this is the same underlying physics as the alpine equalizer done with clove hitches.

Note: Full redundancy requires the cloves hitches don't slip, so probably best to use 7mm nylon, or nylon webbing for your material. A standard 20' cordalette works for this thing, but is pretty long, a ~16-18' one would probably be better if you like the length you get from a normal cordalette.

4 piece anchor:
1. Put a half twist in the middle of the cordalette loop to create a big "8", clipping one loop through the leftmost two pieces, and the second loop through the rightmost two pieces.
2. Pull the strands down similar to a cordalette and clip a biner into the loops to create a master point.
3. Clove-hitch the loops to the 4 protection biners and tug on the master point biner to cinch things down.



The half twist in the middle changes how the thing extends if a piece pops, but it makes little difference except in the case of the it being pulled far from the nominal position, like a horizontal fixed line in the case that the upper right piece popped.

Why I like this approach:
1. Fairly easy to add biners to the master point even when loaded.
2. No piece takes more than 50% of the load, and you have static equalization in the vertical case.
3. Clove hitches are easy to untie, and there are no extra fixed knots like with the Equallete.
4. There is still at worst 50/50 load sharing for a 90 degree change in load angle.
5. No specialized gear beyond the cordalette you likely already have, and even a 6' or 8' sling will work (if a clove won't slip, so probably a bad idea with those mammut slings, or other high spectra slings).

Stupid? Comments? Am I missing something obvious?


(This post was edited by moof on Jul 23, 2009, 5:06 PM)


patto


Jul 23, 2009, 7:20 PM
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Excellent post Moof! Smile

You might want check out this http://www.paulraphaelson.com/downloads/acr.pdf .
It is my favourite of all the fancy anchoring methods.

That all said, I am normally a champion of the regular cordalette. I love to laugh all the complicated and uneccessary solutions to what I see as a non problem. Though the load direction change issue is very real and hard to avoid.


(This post was edited by patto on Jul 23, 2009, 7:51 PM)


seatbeltpants


Jul 23, 2009, 8:33 PM
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great post. i don't have anything much to add but will be interested in seeing others' responses to this. i'm an alpine equaliser user at the moment but have been wondering what i'll do when i retire that...

steve


marc801


Jul 23, 2009, 9:03 PM
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Big, fucking, huge.......YAWN........
What, this shit, again?


moof


Jul 23, 2009, 9:27 PM
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patto wrote:
Excellent post Moof! Smile

You might want check out this http://www.paulraphaelson.com/downloads/acr.pdf .
It is my favourite of all the fancy anchoring methods.

That all said, I am normally a champion of the regular cordalette. I love to laugh all the complicated and uneccessary solutions to what I see as a non problem. Though the load direction change issue is very real and hard to avoid.

Thanks for the link, I had not seen that variation, though most of the dudes setups are not redundant against cutting, which while likely very rare is something I want in an anchor. The standard cordalette is double redundant against cuts in all locations, equalette is triple redundant except in the sliding area where it is singly redundant. The dorkalette is double redundant in the 3 piece case, triple redundant in the 4 piece case everywhere except for the within the cloves where it is singly redundant.

I generally use the plain vanilla cordalette, but when I get on a big wall I frequently sit there watching the jugger only loading a single piece for the better part of an hour, only to later nearly break my teeth untying the thing. So I wanted to find something new that did better equalization and would hopefully be less of a bear to untie.


jbrown2


Oct 12, 2009, 1:58 PM
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I feel that you just took 15 minutes of my life i can never get back. So your big improvement is the clove hitch. Nothing new here. As for the guy worried about cutting, Have you ever tried to cut 5.5mil Spectra or Gemini cord. You'll ruin a pair of scissors before you get through one strand. I would stop using your eight mil cord and go for the spectra


moose_droppings


Oct 12, 2009, 2:56 PM
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Not bad Moof
When i don't use the rope and everything else is pretty ample I use the cordalette. But when I need equalization I'll use this since it as simple as a cordalette with only 2 more knots.



Equalizes well, simple with no more gear than a cordalette, very little extension and with the 2 overhand knots on a bite is totally redundant.

Many of these different designs work well for given situations and comes down to what a person is more familiar with. Having some of these may be a good option as long as a person isn't overwhelmed with to many of them floating around in their heads. Personally for one day multipitch, I'll use the rope more often than anything, and lord knows there's a gazillion different ways to use it.

Damn pic edit



(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Oct 12, 2009, 2:59 PM)


i_h8_choss


Oct 12, 2009, 3:13 PM
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my first thought was ------> puppet show.
wierd huh?


moof


Oct 12, 2009, 4:12 PM
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i_h8_choss wrote:
my first thought was ------> puppet show.
wierd huh?

I spent last night inhaling way too many solvents, nothing sounds weird after that...

Good news is that I now have a better wall hammer for my troubles, and it only cost me $30, a bunch of brain cells, and a whole pile of hack saw blades. Good times...


paulraphael


Oct 17, 2009, 11:29 AM
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moof wrote:
Thanks for the link, I had not seen that variation, though most of the dudes setups are not redundant against cutting, which while likely very rare is something I want in an anchor.

There's a simple way to make any self-equalizing anchor redundant against cutting: back up the anchor by tieing the rope (loosely) to your strongest piece. This is illustrated in that ACR download, but it works with any anchor.

Most importantly: it takes just a couple of seconds. I think the reason these anchor threads have become a joke is that people have forgotten the issue of useability. Any technique that adds five minutes of fiddling, or an extra few opportunities to make mistakes, is probably not worth any advantages over familar methods, even considering quirks and flaws.

I have a friend who doesn't like the idea of backing up the anchor with a knot on the strongest piece ... "because what happens if your cord breaks AND your strongest piece pulls??"

Reminds of someone else's anchor critique in another thread: "even that won't save you from getting impaled by a unicorn."


surfstar


Jul 22, 2011, 12:02 PM
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Bump - anyone been using this? Feedback?


sp115


Jul 22, 2011, 4:26 PM
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surfstar wrote:
Bump...

You sir, should be impaled by a unicorn.


surfstar


Jul 22, 2011, 4:29 PM
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sp115 wrote:
surfstar wrote:
Bump...

You sir, should be impaled by a unicorn.

With an ACR on its horn?


sp115


Jul 22, 2011, 4:52 PM
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I gut nutthin'.


cellige


Jul 23, 2011, 1:07 PM
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This for 3 point (or 4 if your so inclined) gear anchor or the quad for 2 bolts or gear is all I use. I think moof has found a final solution. It has the best qualities I believe.


sandstone


Jul 25, 2011, 9:04 AM
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moof wrote:
... Am I missing something obvious?

Yes.

If all pieces except one fail, the cord fully extends and a jumbled mass of carabiners, clove hitches, and protection slams into the side of the masterpoint biner. Not good.


JimTitt


Jul 25, 2011, 11:03 AM
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cellige wrote:
This for 3 point (or 4 if your so inclined) gear anchor or the quad for 2 bolts or gear is all I use. I think moof has found a final solution. It has the best qualities I believe.

You mean that after decades of Americas intelligencia (using the term loosely here) sitting in basements knitting belays we end up with the best being one being that when the load shifts you end up loading the pieces 0,0,35% & 65% when friction does itīs job.
And wasnīt equalised (on a load of gear of unknown and one must assume unequal stength) in the first place because tying the cloves screwed it up and ignored uneven extension of the cord.


cellige


Jul 25, 2011, 8:54 PM
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seatbeltpants wrote:
great post. i don't have anything much to add but will be interested in seeing others' responses to this. i'm an alpine equaliser user at the moment but have been wondering what i'll do when i retire that...

steve

whats the big deal about that? they are not going to extrude through.. and even if they did, its a closed system.


cellige


Jul 25, 2011, 9:06 PM
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JimTitt wrote:
You mean that after decades of Americas intelligencia (using the term loosely here) sitting in basements knitting belays we end up with the best being one being that when the load shifts you end up loading the pieces 0,0,35% & 65% when friction does itīs job.
And wasnīt equalised (on a load of gear of unknown and one must assume unequal stength) in the first place because tying the cloves screwed it up and ignored uneven extension of the cord.

It might only dynamically equalize between two pieces on load shift, but so does the equalette. And this one has a little less friction without the sandwiched biners in the X of the equalette. It slides as nice as the quad.

Like moof says above, one of the big advantages of this is that if a piece blows, your still equalized between 2 pieces (on 3 or the 4 piece version), and equalette can't hold a flame to that trick.
This anchor is also faster to tie than the equalette (just turning the loops into cloves, simple, no limiter knots)

Its simply a better equalette.

I don't think any of this is necessary for bolts but on small gear it is nice.

edit: I think the 3 point version is more useful and is damn quick, perhaps there should be a picture for it..


(This post was edited by cellige on Jul 25, 2011, 9:09 PM)


sp115


Jul 26, 2011, 7:40 AM
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cellige wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
You mean that after decades of Americas intelligencia (using the term loosely here) sitting in basements knitting belays we end up with the best being one being that when the load shifts you end up loading the pieces 0,0,35% & 65% when friction does itīs job.
And wasnīt equalised (on a load of gear of unknown and one must assume unequal stength) in the first place because tying the cloves screwed it up and ignored uneven extension of the cord.

It might only dynamically equalize between two pieces on load shift, but so does the equalette. And this one has a little less friction without the sandwiched biners in the X of the equalette. It slides as nice as the quad.

Like moof says above, one of the big advantages of this is that if a piece blows, your still equalized between 2 pieces (on 3 or the 4 piece version), and equalette can't hold a flame to that trick.
This anchor is also faster to tie than the equalette (just turning the loops into cloves, simple, no limiter knots)

Its simply a better equalette.

I don't think any of this is necessary for bolts but on small gear it is nice.

edit: I think the 3 point version is more useful and is damn quick, perhaps there should be a picture for it..

And I still think that outside of the truly sketch anchor location, double ropes offer a faster and simpler solution.

Edit to add: and now I see that you qualified your comment - "small gear". So, yeah, uhm, never mind.


(This post was edited by sp115 on Jul 26, 2011, 7:46 AM)


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