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acorneau
Jul 24, 2009, 6:58 PM
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Howdy folks, (Mods: If this belongs someplace other than the Lab, please move it to the most appropriate forum.) Every once in a while I'll head over to Mountain Project and browse through the latest pictures. I found this one and thought I'd toss it over here for some discussion: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/philgru/106496750 From what I can see, there is a couple of nuts, a piton and some other anchor out of view. The anchor points are tied off with clove hitches (guessing for the out-of view piece), a fig-8 on a bight between the two left pieces and the same for the right two. The person in the pic seems to be connected directly to the anchor point out of view (possibly with a clove hitch). The person taking the picture is tethered into the two fig-8's with a locker. I can see the two fig-8's coming together to create a main "master point" and being able to adjust the clove hitches to even things out. Simple, rope-built anchor which seems to fit most folks criteria for an anchor. So, what do you think?
(This post was edited by acorneau on Jul 24, 2009, 7:01 PM)
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knieveltech
Jul 24, 2009, 7:09 PM
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Looks like a clusterfuck to me. All the pain of rigging an equalette (including tying the stopper knots) with none of the benefits. That doesn't look like it equalizes worth a shit for anything other than the direction of pull it was rigged for (eg straight down). Seems to me if you're going to toss out equalization you might as well rig a standard-issue cordalette or just girth-hitch the rope to each piece in series. Much faster that way. Would I bitch about it if someone belayed me up on that? Only if it took as long to rig as it looks like it did.
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billl7
Jul 24, 2009, 7:24 PM
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Bugs me some that his tie-in with the rope bypasses the power point and goes directly to one piece of pro (off picture) - mostly an extension issue should that piece blow. I'm assuming his belay was /will be off the harness. What's that hanger-looking thing on the locker at the power point? Bill
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acorneau
Jul 24, 2009, 7:35 PM
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billl7 wrote: Bugs me some that his tie-in with the rope bypasses the power point and goes directly to one piece of pro (off picture) Yeah, I would have left more slack to tie into the master point with a clove.
In reply to: What's that hanger-looking thing on the locker at the power point? Looks like a hanger used for carrot bolts:
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sungam
Jul 24, 2009, 7:48 PM
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looks like too much effort, with no real safety gains, over other systems.
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knieveltech
Jul 24, 2009, 8:05 PM
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acorneau wrote: billl7 wrote: Bugs me some that his tie-in with the rope bypasses the power point and goes directly to one piece of pro (off picture) Yeah, I would have left more slack to tie into the master point with a clove. In reply to: What's that hanger-looking thing on the locker at the power point? Looks like a hanger used for carrot bolts: WTF is a carrot bolt?
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billl7
Jul 24, 2009, 8:25 PM
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Wow, thanks for the info. I've never seen such a hanger. I guess that is an answer to the problem of hangerless bolts.
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knieveltech
Jul 24, 2009, 8:40 PM
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acorneau wrote: knieveltech wrote: WTF is a carrot bolt? It's a bolt that sticks out of the rock a little and has no permanent hanger, and is used mostly down-under. Looks like this: You slide one of the hangers on it then clipping a biner is supposed to hold it in place, but sometimes it doesn't work completely: Thanks for the explanation. That is fucking horrifying.
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Alpine07
Jul 24, 2009, 8:40 PM
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While we are on the subject of interesting anchors... Take a look at this. Top of anchor: Bottom of anchor:
(This post was edited by Alpine07 on Jul 24, 2009, 8:44 PM)
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moof
Jul 24, 2009, 8:46 PM
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Best I can tell the dude is on a clove to the leftmost piece. Perhaps he's out right just for the photo-op? The left 2 pieces form a V with cloves and a figure 8 in the middle. The rightmost 2 pieces get exactly the same, with the slack of the rope dangling out of frame off the rightmost piece (presumably piled on the ledge?). 1. The two figure 8's come together at too much of an angle, crossloadind the biner the camera man is clipped in with. 2. Only static equalization as already noted. 3. It is not clear to me what will change when the leader takes off, but as shown the dude is putting his weight onto a single piece. To be done properly he should be tied into a locker at the power point so that a falling leader won't cause the belayer to load only a single piece. I'm guessing something along those lines would happen before they proceeded, but no context is given. 4. The pile of slings on the dude's shoulder imply that he did up this anchor as a novelty, not out of necessity. It would be nice to know how those nuts are, as it sort of looks like a situation where cloving them together with a sling to maintain their orientation might be prudent. Again, context intrigues me.
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sungam
Jul 24, 2009, 8:50 PM
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Bomber! How shitty was the ice that it warranted 5 screws?
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sungam
Jul 24, 2009, 8:54 PM
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knieveltech wrote: That is fucking horrifying. Heh. Stay. Away. from moab.
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knieveltech
Jul 24, 2009, 8:55 PM
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sungam wrote: knieveltech wrote: That is fucking horrifying. Heh. Stay. Away. from moab. What, the rock near Moab doesn't take gear?
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Alpine07
Jul 24, 2009, 8:56 PM
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Dude, it was so bad, haha. Edit: And by bad, I mean awesome. Except for the crappy pro, it was some of the most fun stuff that I have climbed on.
(This post was edited by Alpine07 on Jul 24, 2009, 8:57 PM)
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sungam
Jul 24, 2009, 10:04 PM
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knieveltech wrote: sungam wrote: knieveltech wrote: That is fucking horrifying. Heh. Stay. Away. from moab. What, the rock near Moab doesn't take gear?
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sungam
Jul 24, 2009, 10:06 PM
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acorneau wrote: Alpine07 wrote: While we are on the subject of interesting anchors... Take a look at this. I've never been ice climbing before, but I would guess that 5 ice screws plus the two axes probably would hold a little bit. Hah. Wishfull thinking. If it needs 5 screws and 2 axxes, and won't take a abakolov then falling iz not an option, but also more likely. Go figure.
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yankinoz
Jul 24, 2009, 10:30 PM
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knieveltech wrote: acorneau wrote: knieveltech wrote: WTF is a carrot bolt? It's a bolt that sticks out of the rock a little and has no permanent hanger, and is used mostly down-under. Looks like this: [image]http://www.safercliffs.org/images/machine_bolt.jpg[/image] You slide one of the hangers on it then clipping a biner is supposed to hold it in place, but sometimes it doesn't work completely: [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/0/178530-work-33618.jpg[/image] Thanks for the explanation. That is fucking horrifying. No more so than the snakes or spiders.
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philbox
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Jul 24, 2009, 11:39 PM
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I've seen the OP type of anchor taught in an ACIA text book from memory. I've never been a fan of it but have used it on occasion. It works a treat when you have a well spread out anchor with a significantly high piece which needs extending down a very long way. The thing about using the rope is that you have a fair degree of equalisation due to the inherent spring in the rope. What I don't like about this anchor as pictured is the triaxial loading on the locker. Chuck another locker opposed in there and yer sweet. This definitely looks like an Australian setup and the give away is as pointed out the carrot hanger. A lot of the old carrots are being replaced nowadays but there are still significant carrot fields out there particularly in the Blue Mountains. One of my fave climbs is called Hotel California and if you run the first two pitches together you need something like 25 hangers and of course the quickdraws to match. Itsa rope stretcher. The really horrifying thing about carrots s was pointed out is that they do not work with a lot of the more modern tiny thin biners now extensively used. They were designed to be used with the olde solid gate clip gated biners. Don't use wire gates. Leaders have been shocked when all their gear fell off the route. It occurs when the rope jiggles the hanger and qickdraw combination such that the nose jiggles around to the hanger bolt junction. Scary.
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bill413
Jul 24, 2009, 11:54 PM
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sungam wrote: knieveltech wrote: sungam wrote: knieveltech wrote: That is fucking horrifying. Heh. Stay. Away. from moab. What, the rock near Moab doesn't take gear? Ah, I see hexes are worth carrying!
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majid_sabet
Jul 24, 2009, 11:58 PM
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Fully qualified CF anchor but this is interesting that no one talks about master biner and potential X-load problems.
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bill413
Jul 25, 2009, 1:44 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: Fully qualified CF anchor but this is interesting that no one talks about master biner and potential X-load problems. You must have missed the mention of tri-axial / cross-loading. Go back & find it.
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patto
Jul 25, 2009, 2:36 AM
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Looks like the third pitch belay on Watchtower Crack, Arapiles. (I checked the photo caption and yes I'm right) This is how I do 90% of my anchors. Its fast, its safe, it doesn't need a cordalette, its easy to adjust, its dynamic and it equalisers. The only thing it doesn't do is dynamic equalisation. (I wouldn't normally have such a sharp angle between my to figure-8s though.) If anybody has any questions about how and why regarding this anchor I'd be happy to answer them.
majid_sabet wrote: Fully qualified CF anchor but this is interesting that no one talks about master biner and potential X-load problems. Far from a CF majid. Just because you don't understand a system doesn't make it wrong.
knieveltech wrote: Looks like a clusterfuck to me. All the pain of rigging an equalette (including tying the stopper knots) with none of the benefits. That doesn't look like it equalizes worth a shit for anything other than the direction of pull it was rigged for (eg straight down). I find it as fast if not faster to rig than a cordalette. It is easier to equalise than a cordalette.
knieveltech wrote: Seems to me if you're going to toss out equalization you might as well rig a standard-issue cordalette or just girth-hitch the rope to each piece in series. Much faster that way. Girth hitch (i presume you me clove hitch) the rope in series WTF!? where is the equalisation there?
knieveltech wrote: Would I bitch about it if someone belayed me up on that? Only if it took as long to rig as it looks like it did. It takes no longer to rig than most anchor setups.
(This post was edited by patto on Jul 25, 2009, 2:54 AM)
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Alpine07
Jul 25, 2009, 2:42 AM
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sungam wrote: acorneau wrote: Alpine07 wrote: While we are on the subject of interesting anchors... Take a look at this. I've never been ice climbing before, but I would guess that 5 ice screws plus the two axes probably would hold a little bit. Hah. Wishfull thinking. If it needs 5 screws and 2 axxes, and won't take a abakolov then falling iz not an option, but also more likely. Go figure. Wishful thinking indeed. When my brother cleaned the anchor he was able to yank out two of the screws. A picket would have been much better, but lacking that, five screws and two tools did the job alright.
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