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skraeling
Jul 29, 2009, 3:35 AM
Post #1 of 14
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I have sets of hexes, nuts, tricams, and link cams. I am climbing all the 5.1-5.7 cracks that I can find to learn placements. While at a nice system of easy cracks learning and climbing, two guys come up and start at the cracks with at least 20 cams and one set of nuts. As most of the gear was well used I start talking to them about cams vs hexes figuring that they knew better. They told me that they had never placed pro before and were just learning for the first time now.
It was horrendous. They placed nuts perpendicular to the rock (the wire swage was pointing straight out from the cliff) There were also many cams angled the same way in flares. They even put a #2 camelot in an odd inch deep pod. I told them repeatedly that I don't think their placements would hold and were bad. They didn't do anything differently, but told me that i was bad-ass because i didn't use my cams. When i left i told them to go find a mentor to teach them proper placements. They laughed and told me that they would figure it out.
I don't think they should be teaching themselves; they need a mentor. How to I make them get a mentor before they become statistics?
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jeepnphreak
Jul 29, 2009, 4:10 AM
Post #2 of 14
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Well untill they deck, zipper or what ever they will proablly not change. There are a few dumbasses like that.
just be around to get a free set of sweet gear when they kill eachother.
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bennydh
Jul 29, 2009, 4:15 AM
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Barfed on self reading this thread. I'll go waste more time cleaning it off now, then maybe I'll dick around on facebook, or add variety to my pandora account.
-1
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bradley3297
Jul 29, 2009, 4:45 AM
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dont worry darwins theory will take care of people like that. Mankind will be better off.... I taught myself gear placing and thought it was pretty basic physics as to what would hold and not hold.
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bill413
Jul 29, 2009, 12:28 PM
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skraeling wrote: I have sets of hexes, nuts, tricams, and link cams. I am climbing all the 5.1-5.7 cracks that I can find to learn placements. While at a nice system of easy cracks learning and climbing, two guys come up and start at the cracks with at least 20 cams and one set of nuts. As most of the gear was well used I start talking to them about cams vs hexes figuring that they knew better. They told me that they had never placed pro before and were just learning for the first time now. It was horrendous. They placed nuts perpendicular to the rock (the wire swage was pointing straight out from the cliff) There were also many cams angled the same way in flares. They even put a #2 camelot in an odd inch deep pod. I told them repeatedly that I don't think their placements would hold and were bad. They didn't do anything differently, but told me that i was bad-ass because i didn't use my cams. When i left i told them to go find a mentor to teach them proper placements. They laughed and told me that they would figure it out. I don't think they should be teaching themselves; they need a mentor. How to I make them get a mentor before they become statistics?
You did what you could. Maybe they didn't want to accept your advice in the moment, but they will think about it & change their minds later on. Maybe they'll be lucky & a piece will rattle out from rope movement & they'll realize that they could be doing things better.
There have been times where I've been at the cliffs and moved to a different section just so I wouldn't have to watch death courtship acts. Not everyone will climb safe, and many will do it out of ignorance rather than willful decision.
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shoo
Jul 29, 2009, 2:12 PM
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You cannot make people not be idiots, and you should not take responsibility for willful idiocy.
That being said, most climbers, myself included, got away with a lot stuff that we probably shouldn't have. Experimentation, even occasional idiocy, is part of the learning process. There is a fuzzy area where idiocy and boldness meet, and it's not always clear from the outside perspective.
I liken this to medical informed consent. If they know they are taking a risk and choose to take that risk, power to them. If they hurt themselves doing it, that is their problem, and most importantly, their choice. If they have no clue what the risks are, then you should consider intervention.
My general strategy for stuff like this is as follows:
1. Approach them in a friendly manner and suggest "Hey, I noticed that the way you are doing such and such isn't ideal. Would you like some help?" If all people in the party are equally newbish and obviously know it, talk to all of them. If one person appears to be in charge and thinks they know what they are doing is correct, pull them aside. If the person in charge is clearly irresponsible and endangering other people in the party, and those other people are not aware of it, be prepared to publicly call them out.
2. If they say no, walk away. You are not responsible for their actions. Otherwise, continue to Step 3.
3. Explain to them that you are prepared to give a couple of tips, but that this isn't an exhaustive lesson by any means, and you are not taking responsibility for them. They should seek qualified instruction before continuing what they are doing. Be prepared to suggest some literature as well.
4. Explain that teaching themselves is not ideal, since there are a great many critical concepts which are not at all obvious. Be prepared to give an example or two.
5. After going through all of this, gently explain why what they are doing is incorrect. If they are doing everything wrong, choose one or two especially dangerous practices, explain them, and use them as proof that there is far more to this than they realize.
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camhead
Jul 29, 2009, 2:55 PM
Post #7 of 14
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Skraeling: awesome username, btw.
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darkgift06
Jul 29, 2009, 3:37 PM
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If they still don't listen tell them to watch as you solo to there first placement & pop it out with a downward pull lol.
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seatbeltpants
Jul 29, 2009, 8:44 PM
Post #9 of 14
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Registered: Mar 9, 2008
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i'm with shoo - there's only so much you can do. if it looks bad and they won't listen, try to move further away so you at least can't see what they're doing, cross your fingers, and hope for the best...
steve
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evanwish
Jul 30, 2009, 6:32 AM
Post #10 of 14
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i give you props on spending the time to learn how to place HEXs!
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skiclimb
Jul 31, 2009, 4:40 AM
Post #11 of 14
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Registered: Jan 11, 2004
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evanwish wrote: i give you props on spending the time to learn how to place HEXs!
Yeah that actually is pretty cool...
but can he tie off little stones he placed in a crack for pro???
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RockLimbaugh
Aug 5, 2009, 11:55 PM
Post #12 of 14
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Registered: Jul 3, 2009
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skraeling wrote: I don't think they should be teaching themselves; they need a mentor. How to I make them get a mentor before they become statistics?
Tell their mother what they are up to, and try appealing to her.
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socalclimber
Aug 6, 2009, 4:47 AM
Post #13 of 14
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evanwish wrote: i give you props on spending the time to learn how to place HEXs!
I give props to anyone who has enough functioning brain cells to learn to use every piece of gear they can get their hands on.
At least they have built their opinions on some form of empirical data rather than conjecture and speculation.
When I do anchor classes I bring a collection of everything, and lord do I have a collection. This way they get some hands on with stuff they might not normaly see.
And yes, that includes Aliens.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Aug 6, 2009, 4:49 AM)
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apeman_e
Aug 8, 2009, 3:13 PM
Post #14 of 14
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Registered: Nov 21, 2008
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bradley3297 wrote: dont worry darwins theory will take care of people like that. Mankind will be better off
I believe the word you were looking for is autodarwinate.
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