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yodadave
Aug 14, 2009, 4:43 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,...
I'm not jumping on the you guys suck band wagon by any means but i am interested in how you can become a "guide" with only 600 pitches under your belt. That really isn't much for 10 years of climbing.
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jakedatc
Aug 14, 2009, 4:48 PM
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yodadave wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,... Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience? I'm not jumping on the you guys suck band wagon by any means but i am interested in how you can become a "guide" with only 600 pitches under your belt. That really isn't much for 10 years of climbing.
greg isnt the guide... Jeremiah won't give us any details about his experience or credentials on being a guide.
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camhead
Aug 14, 2009, 4:54 PM
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jakedatc wrote: yodadave wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,... Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience? I'm not jumping on the you guys suck band wagon by any means but i am interested in how you can become a "guide" with only 600 pitches under your belt. That really isn't much for 10 years of climbing. greg isnt the guide... Jeremiah won't give us any details about his experience or credentials on being a guide.
yeah, but it is not hard to find evidence between his blog posts and climbing profile.*
*re: Climbing Profile: it's out of date! honest! I climb 5.12 onsight! trad! ground up! second try! You've got to check yerself before you wreck yerself!
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jakedatc
Aug 14, 2009, 5:05 PM
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Yea... i liked this bit..
"We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7
"I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up"
sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever.
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macherry
Aug 14, 2009, 5:29 PM
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jakedatc wrote: yodadave wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,... Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience? I'm not jumping on the you guys suck band wagon by any means but i am interested in how you can become a "guide" with only 600 pitches under your belt. That really isn't much for 10 years of climbing. greg isnt the guide... Jeremiah won't give us any details about his experience or credentials on being a guide.
see the thread brotherhood of the rope. he has no credentials
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gmggg
Aug 14, 2009, 5:35 PM
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macherry wrote: jakedatc wrote: yodadave wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,... Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience? I'm not jumping on the you guys suck band wagon by any means but i am interested in how you can become a "guide" with only 600 pitches under your belt. That really isn't much for 10 years of climbing. greg isnt the guide... Jeremiah won't give us any details about his experience or credentials on being a guide. see the thread brotherhood of the rope. he has no credentials
It seems like the guiding and the blogging come from the same place though. Namely a desire to jump through a process to the end result without having to learn all of the messy details.
Brotherhood of the Rope was a great example of these tendencies...
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marc801
Aug 14, 2009, 5:42 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: I said I've only had four "epics" in all of my experience. I also don't think any of those days on Cannon were really epics (getting caught in the rain twice, one fall, one long day).
In reply to: I've now been on Cannon four times, and can officially state that there is a pattern of some sort of failure.
In reply to: Jeremiah and I were lucky enough to have a guide and client climbing below us the first time we tackled the great alpine mountain of the northeast. Route finding was an issue that day, and the guide was instrumental in getting us up the proper pitches even though we hadn't hired him.
Routefinding on Lakeview just isn't that difficult. I thought Germy was a guide?
In reply to: Jeremiah had forgotten a spare set of clothes (and his sleeping bag, and a jacket, and his sleeping pad, and I accidentally smashed his cellphone charger in the car door earlier in the day, and he accidentally dropped my radio from the bottom of the last pitch before we topped out),
In reply to: the next time Jeremiah and decided to climb Cannon, we (read: he) were determined to hike to the top come rain or shine. This time we were prepared. We weren't going fast and light this time, not if the weather was going to suddenly rise in vengeance from the west where we could not see it coming (Cannon is east-facing). We packed my bag with our gear, our rope, a stove, some food, and the rain fly and poles off my tent for shelter in case we got dumped on again. This time we were going to wait out any storm and stay dry.
In reply to: And then it rained harder before the rain turned into a healthy downpour; and the trail became a waterfall, the roots became as slick as ice, the mud as loose as the screws in our brains; and our self-confidence crashed to the point where we thought we were finished, destined to be rescued, freezing, wet, and nearly unconscious until our attitudes reached the depths of darkness that we had never knew existed;
In reply to: would finally get a chance to tackle Moby Grape. Unfortunately, this also meant that everyone else was thinking the same thing. We were lucky, though, in that we were the fourth party to get to the base of Moby Grape at 11am, with one party already on the second pitch and another party working its way up Reppy's.
In reply to: I completely, decidedly, unequivocally, and unabashedly hate most vertical cracks. I think I've found one or two cracks that I really like..... I fell about four times, with one of those times finding me seeking a way up the lichen-covered arrete to the right instead of fighting the impossible 25-foot stretch of crack that remained above me. I found no other route other than going straight up the crack...so I battled to the top completely exhausted and bruised and banged up all over my feet, shins, forearms, and hands. It was so bad that when I got to the top I was barely able to stand because my ankles were rolling from fatigue.
[Edit for improved clarity]
(This post was edited by marc801 on Aug 14, 2009, 5:44 PM)
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LostinMaine
Aug 14, 2009, 5:49 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: olderic wrote: marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Jake, for context, which both of us have noted above (and so did my blog post on my recent Cannon trip), we took the extra stuff because we wanted to hike to the summit after climbing, and when we had tried to do that a few weeks before we got caught in a nasty rain storm without extra gear. What "extra gear" does one possibly need for the gentle stroll to the summit (where you can take the tram down)? In actuality it is more then a "gentle stroll" to the summit from the top out of most Cannon routes. Believe it or not you are only about 1/2 way there (from the road) and the rest typically involves considerable bushwacking. Also the tram typically stops running down around 5PM (a fact I learned the hard way 35 years ago after my partner convinced me that it would be easier to walk up and catch a ride down after we did Blockade (anyone remember that dear departed route?)). It also costs $$ which our poverty stricken heros might not have liked. Finally while it makes some sense to head for the summit from the Lakeview end it's pretty silly to do from the Whitney-G end. Although I doubt our well informed protagonists were aware of all this. We were not aware of this when we departed for WG. The bushwhacking was pretty much the worst part.
I haven't read the Cannon Guide in a while, but IIRC, it specifically said that anything left of W-G was silly to climb up or rap down. I think I remember "unsafe bushwack" in the guide book (though admittedly that may have been trying to walk down toward the base of the climbs as well).
At any rate, I do agree with you two that Cannon can be a bitch for weather. Guiding stuff aside, I don't think it's unreasonable to bring a small pack with some bail gear, rain gear, and first aid equipment. To simply call Cannon a 4 or 5 pitch cliff without footnoting the weather and access is a bit unfair to anyone who has climbed there in less-than-perfect conditions (even Jake would agree to that, I would guess).
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kriso9tails
Aug 14, 2009, 5:49 PM
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jakedatc wrote: Yea... i liked this bit.. "We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7 "I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up" sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever.
Sometimes I'll have trouble on a 5.7 crack. At a certain point in the route I think to myself, "I know I've done this move before; it was just ten seconds ago so how can it possibly be appearing before me again? There's no way!" At that point I become convinced that I'm stuck in some sort of never-ending temporal-spatial loop and abandon all hope.
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jakedatc
Aug 14, 2009, 6:02 PM
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kriso9tails wrote: jakedatc wrote: Yea... i liked this bit.. "We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7 "I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up" sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever. Sometimes I'll have trouble on a 5.7 crack. At a certain point in the route I think to myself, "I know I've done this move before; it was just ten seconds ago so how can it possibly be appearing before me again? There's no way!" At that point I become convinced that I'm stuck in some sort of never-ending temporal-spatial loop and abandon all hope.
I just don't climb vertical cracks on principle.. i don't think they are fun to climb at all so i don't do it.
LostinMaine.. i wouldn't consider 20lbs of shit "a small backpack of gear" that's 80% of a week long backpack kit.. there's prepared and there is overkill that could contribute to slowing things down.
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socalclimber
Aug 14, 2009, 6:08 PM
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All details aside, what we are dealing with here is someone who is clearly pirate guiding that has no business guiding at all.
Climbing skills and guiding skills are two completely different things.
He apparently has neither.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Aug 14, 2009, 6:08 PM)
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gmggg
Aug 14, 2009, 6:08 PM
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jakedatc wrote: kriso9tails wrote: jakedatc wrote: Yea... i liked this bit.. "We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7 "I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up" sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever. Sometimes I'll have trouble on a 5.7 crack. At a certain point in the route I think to myself, "I know I've done this move before; it was just ten seconds ago so how can it possibly be appearing before me again? There's no way!" At that point I become convinced that I'm stuck in some sort of never-ending temporal-spatial loop and abandon all hope. I just don't climb vertical cracks on principle.. i don't think they are fun to climb at all so i don't do it. LostinMaine.. i wouldn't consider 20lbs of shit "a small backpack of gear" that's 80% of a week long backpack kit.. there's prepared and there is overkill that could contribute to slowing things down.
Have you seen the people on winter day hikes on mt Washington? 20lbs is ultralight.
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dynosore
Aug 14, 2009, 6:18 PM
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camhead wrote: jakedatc wrote: yodadave wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Having about 600 pitches or so spread over ten years under my belt,... Wow. 60 pitches a year. A light day at the Gunks is maybe 6 pitches, so you're suggesting that 10 days a year is a wealth of experience? I'm not jumping on the you guys suck band wagon by any means but i am interested in how you can become a "guide" with only 600 pitches under your belt. That really isn't much for 10 years of climbing. greg isnt the guide... Jeremiah won't give us any details about his experience or credentials on being a guide. yeah, but it is not hard to find evidence between his blog posts and climbing profile.* *re: Climbing Profile: it's out of date! honest! I climb 5.12 onsight! trad! ground up! second try! You've got to check yerself before you wreck yerself!
NOOB guides on your rope are bad for yer health.....
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socalclimber
Aug 14, 2009, 6:32 PM
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camhead wrote: granite_grrl wrote: jakedatc wrote: In reply to: Luckily she didn't know that I am an avid risk taker and that a risk I would take would not be one which she would want her daughter exposed. please stop taking anyone but Greg out climbing... immediately. you are a danger to yourself and the people who think you have a clue as to what you are doing. Agreed. This quote made my jaw drop. Jerimiah's attempts to make himself look like a hardcore risk taker makes me sick, and is certainly not someone that I'll ever rope up with. If someone really wanted to be a dick, he could forward the blog post to Jer's boss or guiding company. I wouldn't, but I will say that when I was guiding (though not rock), there was no way in hell I would post stuff like that online for everyone to see. Half facetious quips like the "risk" one are fine with beers around the campfire with friends, but not for the whole world to read and misconstrue.
This is based on the assumption that he is indeed working for a legit school. I'm betting he's not.
This guy and his budy who is busy defending him are both a couple of dangerous idiots.
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jakedatc
Aug 14, 2009, 6:44 PM
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gmggg wrote: jakedatc wrote: kriso9tails wrote: jakedatc wrote: Yea... i liked this bit.. "We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7 "I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up" sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever. Sometimes I'll have trouble on a 5.7 crack. At a certain point in the route I think to myself, "I know I've done this move before; it was just ten seconds ago so how can it possibly be appearing before me again? There's no way!" At that point I become convinced that I'm stuck in some sort of never-ending temporal-spatial loop and abandon all hope. I just don't climb vertical cracks on principle.. i don't think they are fun to climb at all so i don't do it. LostinMaine.. i wouldn't consider 20lbs of shit "a small backpack of gear" that's 80% of a week long backpack kit.. there's prepared and there is overkill that could contribute to slowing things down. Have you seen the people on winter day hikes on mt Washington? 20lbs is ultralight.
Does this look like winter... or Mt washington to you?
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lemon_boy
Aug 14, 2009, 6:45 PM
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wow, pretty scary. i sure miss the good old days, when chumps who graduated from liberal arts colleges, with degrees like "wilderness therapy" and nonsense like that just worked at starbucks for the rest of their lives.
i know quite a few guides, and none of them are anything like you. you should quit while you are ahead before you kill yourself (not that big of a deal) or worse, kill somebody else (big deal).
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marc801
Aug 14, 2009, 6:58 PM
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jakedatc wrote: gmggg wrote: jakedatc wrote: LostinMaine.. i wouldn't consider 20lbs of shit "a small backpack of gear" that's 80% of a week long backpack kit.. there's prepared and there is overkill that could contribute to slowing things down. Have you seen the people on winter day hikes on mt Washington? 20lbs is ultralight. Does this look like winter... or Mt washington to you?
In reply to: We packed my bag with our gear, our rope, a stove, some food, and the rain fly and poles off my tent for shelter in case we got dumped on again.
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cfnubbler
Aug 14, 2009, 6:58 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: [The fourth time was a fall where I tweaked an ankle that caused us to retreat. I just don't see how my foot slipping is a gumby mistake.
You don't see how falling off of 5.8 handjams and bouncing off a slab is a gumby mistake? Seriously?
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angry
Aug 14, 2009, 7:02 PM
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Here's what I don't understand about the whole deal.
Why the eff would someone want to be a guide? It sure seems like the quickest possible way to hate climbing and everything about climbing.
If you're fortunate enough to not be a guide, count your blessings and go back to your job. Climbing is meant to be enjoyed on your days off.
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LostinMaine
Aug 14, 2009, 7:03 PM
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jakedatc wrote: kriso9tails wrote: jakedatc wrote: Yea... i liked this bit.. "We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7 "I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up" sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever. Sometimes I'll have trouble on a 5.7 crack. At a certain point in the route I think to myself, "I know I've done this move before; it was just ten seconds ago so how can it possibly be appearing before me again? There's no way!" At that point I become convinced that I'm stuck in some sort of never-ending temporal-spatial loop and abandon all hope. I just don't climb vertical cracks on principle.. i don't think they are fun to climb at all so i don't do it. LostinMaine.. i wouldn't consider 20lbs of shit "a small backpack of gear" that's 80% of a week long backpack kit.. there's prepared and there is overkill that could contribute to slowing things down.
I wouldn't consider a 20-pound pack filled with tent gear necessary either... that's why I said a small pack with some bail and emergency gear would be more appropriate for that location (which I thought you might agree to). I'm not justifying their specific gear, just throwing in my two pennies on the unpredictable nature of Cannon climbing.
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jakedatc
Aug 14, 2009, 7:11 PM
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LostinMaine wrote: jakedatc wrote: kriso9tails wrote: jakedatc wrote: Yea... i liked this bit.. "We both had some trouble at the top." - re: 5.7 "I thought it would be an easy warm up to get started on because it looked that way from the bottom." -re: 5.11b onsite "warm up" sorry bud.. no one that onsites .11's struggles on 5.7.... anywhere. ever. Sometimes I'll have trouble on a 5.7 crack. At a certain point in the route I think to myself, "I know I've done this move before; it was just ten seconds ago so how can it possibly be appearing before me again? There's no way!" At that point I become convinced that I'm stuck in some sort of never-ending temporal-spatial loop and abandon all hope. I just don't climb vertical cracks on principle.. i don't think they are fun to climb at all so i don't do it. LostinMaine.. i wouldn't consider 20lbs of shit "a small backpack of gear" that's 80% of a week long backpack kit.. there's prepared and there is overkill that could contribute to slowing things down. I wouldn't consider a 20-pound pack filled with tent gear necessary either... that's why I said a small pack with some bail and emergency gear would be more appropriate for that location (which I thought you might agree to). I'm not justifying their specific gear, just throwing in my two pennies on the unpredictable nature of Cannon climbing.
I recognized that.. i wasn't disagreeing with you. I learned when i first started trad climbing that moving quickly and efficiently was one of the more important skills to develop. Getting up and off a route quickly is a much better option than bringing a crapton of gear in anticipation of being slow. tent poles? lol bring a small tarp to cover yourself.. you don't need to build camp
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gmggg
Aug 14, 2009, 7:12 PM
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jakedatc wrote: Does this look like winter... or Mt washington to you?
I was just pointing out that this outfitting style is Tres Chic for the urban climbing crowd in the NE. After all, you have to make use of that junk at some point so as not to feel bad about buying it.
Just to show a little empathy I will admit I always get laughed at out here for bringing way too much water. I got used to having NO access to water in California and it doesn't bother me all that much to carry a couple gallons for a weekend. That might put me at +20lbs including climbing gear occasionally. I wouldn't think that would be a problem on the WG though...
(This post was edited by gmggg on Aug 14, 2009, 7:20 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Aug 14, 2009, 7:19 PM
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marc801 wrote: In reply to: would finally get a chance to tackle Moby Grape. Unfortunately, this also meant that everyone else was thinking the same thing. We were lucky, though, in that we were the fourth party to get to the base of Moby Grape at 11am, with one party already on the second pitch and another party working its way up Reppy's. That would be enough reason to pick something different. Climbing under 3 other parties on Cannon? WTF?
actually, out all the days that I've been on Cannon, none have ever been days when there weren't other parties on the routes we were doing. Moby and WG are pretty much conga lines. And I've been on those routes, in those conga lines, with people who I knew had considerable experience below other parties (as we were).
Cannon isn't a death trap if you're on established, well-worn routes. Yeah, you've got to be careful, particularly on the ledges where there are piles of loose rock, but the most-used routes are actually fairly clean at this point in the season. I take precautions, but I don't run away.
In reply to: In reply to: I completely, decidedly, unequivocally, and unabashedly hate most vertical cracks. I think I've found one or two cracks that I really like..... I fell about four times, with one of those times finding me seeking a way up the lichen-covered arrete to the right instead of fighting the impossible 25-foot stretch of crack that remained above me. I found no other route other than going straight up the crack...so I battled to the top completely exhausted and bruised and banged up all over my feet, shins, forearms, and hands. It was so bad that when I got to the top I was barely able to stand because my ankles were rolling from fatigue. I give you credit for deciding to push on, but sometimes retreat before you get hurt is a more rational decision. Really, if you're thinking of climbing Moby, Reppy's shouldn't be as much of a struggle as you described. It's a good ability gauge. [Edit for improved clarity]
It wasn't the 5.8 grade that was a problem. I'm pretty solid on 5.8 in general. Some 5.8 trad climbs push me while others come quite easily. It's vertical crack in particular that is difficult for me.
But just because I really don't like vertical crack that doesn't mean I'm going shy away from it. I mean, you have to keep trying to stuff get better at it. I'll admit that I'm not very good at getting better at crack, but it is what it is. I told my partner that day that I didn't think I could lead Reppy's, so she did. I really don't understand what is so irresponsible about that. I've never in my life heard anything that said I had to be able to lead in order to second.
My partner led Reppy's and she did fine. I fell all over the place as the second. I really don't see why falling on a specific type of feature is grounds for immediate descent. Other than a few cracks here and there the rest of the way, it's pretty much face and slab after Reppy's (depending on how you do the Finger of Faith). The roof has a jam crack, too, but I actually got past that part and had both feet up over the roof. I only fell on the Triangle Roof because my foot slipped. I landed awkwardly and hurt my ankle. if I hadn't hurt my ankle then I wouldn't have retreated. I wouldn't have even thought about retreating, in fact.
There was nothing to suggest that we should have turned back. There was no reason to think there was an imminent injury waiting for us above. It's an absurd assumption to say that because the first pitch was hard for me we should have turned around. I actually pulled the roof on P3 and had a solid hand jam that I felt good moving from. MY FOOT SLIPPED! That's it! If I hadn't tweaked my ankle then I would have gone back up and made sure not to let my foot slip.
This is the last I'm going to comment on this particular subject. If you think I never should have been on Moby in the first place then fine, we'll be shooting bullets past each other. Weather permitting, I fully plan on going back up to Moby again before the year is out.
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epoch
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Aug 14, 2009, 7:22 PM
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gmggg wrote: jakedatc wrote: Does this look like winter... or Mt washington to you? I was just pointing out that that outfitting style is Tres Chic for the urban climbing crowd in the NE. After all you have to make use of that junk at some point so as not to feel bad about buying it. Just to show a little empathy I will admit I always get laughed at out here for bringing way too much water. I got used to having NO access to water in California and it doesn't bother me all that much to carry a couple gallons for a weekend. That might put me at +20lbs including climbing gear occasionally. I wouldn't think that would be a problem on the WG though...
I am a water-whore from out west, too. I still find myself bringing between 3 - 4 liters of water for a day of climbing. Then again, the air is thick here, and the heat has this wetness to it that I have yet grown accustomed to. I sweat like crazy regardless of the season.
Too much crap in the pack for an alpine ascent. Though, I agree that Canon is the most alpine-like setting in the North East. It is not, however, alpine in my opinion. I carry a super small pack when doing summer alpine stuff. Usually 3ltrs of water, a rain jacket, first aid kit, lunch, and maybe one of my tent groundcloths for emergency shelter. Total weight depends on the water as everything else is super light.
Light is right and speed in an alpine situation, or on an inherently dangerous precipice can make/break a sucessful ascent.
(This post was edited by epoch on Aug 14, 2009, 7:24 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Aug 14, 2009, 7:37 PM
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angry wrote: Here's what I don't understand about the whole deal. Why the eff would someone want to be a guide? It sure seems like the quickest possible way to hate climbing and everything about climbing. If you're fortunate enough to not be a guide, count your blessings and go back to your job. Climbing is meant to be enjoyed on your days off.
Personally, I agree. While I think guide's do offer a good service to a specific population, I'd never want to be one. I'm just not good at catering to people anymore (cranky in my old age). I used to sea kayak and mtn bike guide when I was kid in college. It was a fun job then. I couldn't do it now.
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