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atlnq9


Aug 14, 2009, 8:51 PM
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Looking for a digital camera
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Ok so I have had SLR's before and loved them. However, it was too heavy for extended trips long climbs, etc. (I had EOS 1v, 24-70 2.8 L, and 70-200 2.8 L)

Now I use Mamiya 6x7 rangefinder. I switched for the style of shooting I do (I can get by with just a 14mm lens, higher res (each scan runs at 30mb jpeg and I still can't see film grain. Absolutely love it. The downside to this for climbing is that focusing, film advance, and exposure is primarily done manual (slow). Pictures cost 5 bucks each with scans. This makes each picture count though.

The cost and lack of action shooting ability make it not so desirable to take on climbs or extended trips, the cost is starting to get to me...

What I want is a somewhat compact digital camera. I already know I am going to suffer huge leap backwards in image quality; but, who really needs a 8'x9' picture? I will also suffer with exposure control, etc. I need a decent viewfinder. Ability manual exposure with ease. Hotshoe.

My ultimate camera would probably be a Leica M8 with autofocus and a 14MP sensor at an affordable price (less than $2000).

Right now the closest options appear to be:
Canon G10, looks great for the exposure compensation and viewfinder, but sounds like it lack in image quality

Sigma DP-1, Great sensor and image quality but no viewfinder except the one you purchase separately and controls sound difficult for manual exposure.

Panasonic LX3: no viewfinder, lacks a bit in image quality,

Olympus EP1: no in camera viewfinder, doesn't have a built in flash for those times when you didn't plan on needing one, a bit more expensive, could be higher res...

Anybody have thoughts?


JasonsDrivingForce


Aug 15, 2009, 6:22 PM
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Personally, I think that there are some excellent "compact" cameras out there. Sure they can't touch a DSLR in medium to low light. However, in daylight they are quite outstanding.

Here are the current and upcoming(Officially Announced next week) cameras I am considering.

Panasonic DMC-LX3

http://www.dpreview.com/...ews/panasonicdmclx3/


Panasonic DMC-GF1

http://forums.dpreview.com/...amp;message=32616642

1. It will be almost the exact same dimensions as the EP1. ďE-P1 is 121mm (W) x 70mm (H) x 36mm (D), 119X71X36.3mm for the GF1.Ē
2. It will have a pop-up flash.
3. It does not have an EVF but it appears that an external one can be used.
4. It has a dedicated movie record button on the top right of the camera.
5. It has HDMI output.
6. It uses the AVCHD- Lite format which means 720p(1280x720) but we donít know the frame rate.
7. It has a single mono microphone on the top of the camera.
8. It will have 20/1.7 and 45/2.8 macro lenses available. However, we donít know if they will be bundled with the camera.
9. It has a hot shoe.
10. It has a widescreen LCD. [edit: probably the 3:2 LCD of the LX3]
11. It does not have in body image stabilization.

Canon G11
http://64.13.226.237/2009/08/g11-specs-cr1/

12.1mp CMOS (No word on size)
DIGIC IV
3″ LCD (920k)
5x Zoom
720 & 1080p Video (30fps)
Minimal ergonomic updates
Same Battery as G10


(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Aug 15, 2009, 6:25 PM)


atlnq9


Aug 15, 2009, 7:49 PM
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Canon G11 sounds good.

If it is going to be a 12MP sensor then that is a step backwards from the G10 which means they may be doing the same thing Sigma did with the DP-1 and use a dslr sensor. I'll keep my fingers crossed for that one. Otherwise the Panasonic replica of the EP-1 looks like my best bet since it will have a pop up flash for those times you didn't plan on needing it (probably only be good still for fill flash)

Oh side question, are filters still important with digital or does everybody cheat these days and use photoshop? For film I still do everything mostly with filters (warming, split ND, polarizer,etc.). I didn't really pay much attention to digital still until I started looking into a compact to supplement about a week ago.


pfwein


Aug 15, 2009, 8:33 PM
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Here are some pics and vids taken with Olympus e-p1
http://picasaweb.google.com/...v1sRgCIPhkI3W1vWWVw#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8EPwbD7K5g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb9LfgBqWkI
(All were taken on Flagstaff outside of Boulder, CO today)

Standard disclaimer: a skilled photographer could presumably do better; these are more in the nature of beginner snapshots. So far I'm pretty happy, but I know other similar cameras will give at least as good of results. The relatively small size of the camera was the draw for me, but it is not comparable to point-and-shoots in that regard and not really suitable for taking up on routes, at least as a regular thing.


(This post was edited by pfwein on Aug 15, 2009, 8:34 PM)


atlnq9


Aug 15, 2009, 8:58 PM
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Why do you say not to take it on routes? Right now I haul a full manual medium format rangefinder on routes. I do like the idea that the EP-1 is very easy to manual focus comparatively and they easily accept filters.

What I want is a combination of all of them really. The sensor on the Sigma, the lens type of the EP-1, the controls of the canon G10, and a great viewfinder for manual focusing which they all lack.

I guess I need to do a little research on resolution too, like how large a picture I can print at 180dpi.

Maybe I just need to take another look at dslrs, I bet I could find one with great resolution and durability with a high quality lens for the same weight as my current system and under $2000.


pfwein


Aug 15, 2009, 9:21 PM
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I just say that based on its size compared to point-and-shoots, and it's got a big lens sticking off the front (which is still more compact than a typical dslr, but very large compared to point-and-shoot).

It sounds like you are used to using "old-school" cameras and so the e-p1 will not seem large to you. I'm coming at this from the point of view of someone who never used big traditional cameras and expects a camera to be the size of a deck of cards, and which can be easily put in a pocket and then carried without even knowing it's there. I'm happy with mine so far; it's just not a replacement for a small, unobtrusive p&s.


nattfodd


Aug 16, 2009, 3:36 AM
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I would really advise you to take a second look at entry-level DSLRs. They are really a world apart from a behemoth like your EOS 1v with the two pro-level 2.8 zooms. Something like a Nikon D5000 or a Canon 450D with a small zoom will have incomparable image quality to any P&S but will still be reasonable enough to carry around on expeditions.

Personally, I use a Nikon D90 with the Sigma 18-50 f/2.8 and the Nikkor 70-300 VR, ditching the last lens when I need to go light. It is probably bigger than what you are looking for, but I find it quite manageable even at high altitude.

You might also find http://www.luminous-landscape.com/...ntain-climbing.shtml useful.


(This post was edited by nattfodd on Aug 16, 2009, 3:37 AM)


JasonsDrivingForce


Aug 16, 2009, 9:11 AM
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pfwein wrote:
Here are some pics and vids taken with Olympus e-p1
http://picasaweb.google.com/...v1sRgCIPhkI3W1vWWVw#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8EPwbD7K5g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb9LfgBqWkI
(All were taken on Flagstaff outside of Boulder, CO today)

Standard disclaimer: a skilled photographer could presumably do better; these are more in the nature of beginner snapshots. So far I'm pretty happy, but I know other similar cameras will give at least as good of results. The relatively small size of the camera was the draw for me, but it is not comparable to point-and-shoots in that regard and not really suitable for taking up on routes, at least as a regular thing.

I liked your videos. They had really nice color and the contrast was good as well. The camera man had trouble keeping the climber in frame. However, they were still fun to watch. Keep posting.


atlnq9


Aug 27, 2009, 5:46 PM
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Right now I have pretty much decided I am going to go DSLR

The main camera I am looking at now is the Pentax K-7. Other cameras are the canon 50d and Rebel T1i. I really like the ruggedness and light wieght of the pentax for the price.

Also I think the pancake lenses look awesome, I am use to not having zoom capability. Just the downside is it only comes as wide as a 32mm lens in 35mm format while I am use to a 24mm. So I might take the 18-55 kit lens which is also weather sealed. Just it is a smaller aperture which means less low light. Which might be a good idea antways since it is cheaper and won't require purchasing both the 20 and 40 pancake lenses. I could always purchase the 70 to supplement though.

Any comments on the pentax systems, they are getting excellent reviews?


JasonsDrivingForce


Aug 27, 2009, 7:19 PM
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These all look great to me.

http://www.dpreview.com/...w=Results&Rows=4


(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Aug 27, 2009, 7:19 PM)


pfwein


Sep 12, 2009, 6:27 PM
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Here's another bouldering vid taken with my Olympus E-P1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9ga3-vBRn4

This is a cool V3 to the right of the problem "Village Idiot" (V7) at Peterskill, NY (Gunks area).
The camera is supposed to have good sound, and I like the "thwack" when the climber grabs the top out ledge at 0:55.

Question: is there any way to rotate the video (I was holding the camera vertically)?


maldaly


Sep 12, 2009, 9:33 PM
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This subject has been beat to death with tons of good suggestions and info if you do a search. Don't look too far back though. Digi-tech is changing so fast that reviews from even a year ago could be obsolete.

You don't say anything about what you are going to do with your pics. Are you a pro who sells to customers who demand RAW images? If so, you narrow your choices to just an handful of the compact cameras.

Why do you need a viewfinder? Although I'm much more comfortable with a viewfinder, I find that the images I make from my LCD-only P&S camera come out just fine. Because I'm not shooting film and can make many images for only the cost of the time it takes to sort and massage them, the need for perfect framing is growing obsolete.

Are you shooting still or slow moving objects that let you deal with the shutter lag that virtually all compacts exhibit? The biggest difference between DSLRs and DP&S cameras is the shutter lag. When I'm shooting people, sports and moving action and need instant shutter release, the DSLR is the only way to go. Shooting climbers and landscapes and scenery? P&S is fine unless your customers requires RAW.

I think the Canon G10 or G11 (Ricoh has a nice one as well. I forget the model (GR8Perhaps?) is the only way to go if you want P&S AND the ability to control exposure beyond +/-. I think they still suffer from shutter lag though.

So it looks like you're stuck with the Leica. Don't waste your time and money on the M8 though. It's a stupid, over-priced and clunky camera with a crappy image sensor. They just announced the M9 which reverts back to the way that Leica should be... Expensive, beautiful, simple, elegant, crisp, efficient and perfect. And... compatible with all of their old lenses.

Don't get hung up on megapixels, especially on the P&S cameras. Once you cram more than about 6MP into those tiny sensors image quality starts to degrade. There are lots of great examples of this on line. Unfortunately, photo editors still get hung on this one. If they are paying your bills, do what they say. If the pics are for you though, put your loupe away and just pay attention to what your eye sees. I've made beautiful, beautiful 36" prints from 2 MB files.


For powerful opinions and lots of information, read what Ken Rockwell (www.kenrockwell.com) has to say. Most pros hate him because he makes fun of RAW and the people who shoot it but there's a ton of good info there.

Good luck and post up photos when you get them.

Mal


gmggg


Sep 13, 2009, 5:27 AM
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maldaly wrote:
This subject has been beat to death with tons of good suggestions and info if you do a search. Don't look too far back though. Digi-tech is changing so fast that reviews from even a year ago could be obsolete.

You don't say anything about what you are going to do with your pics. Are you a pro who sells to customers who demand RAW images? If so, you narrow your choices to just an handful of the compact cameras.

Why do you need a viewfinder? Although I'm much more comfortable with a viewfinder, I find that the images I make from my LCD-only P&S camera come out just fine. Because I'm not shooting film and can make many images for only the cost of the time it takes to sort and massage them, the need for perfect framing is growing obsolete.

Are you shooting still or slow moving objects that let you deal with the shutter lag that virtually all compacts exhibit? The biggest difference between DSLRs and DP&S cameras is the shutter lag. When I'm shooting people, sports and moving action and need instant shutter release, the DSLR is the only way to go. Shooting climbers and landscapes and scenery? P&S is fine unless your customers requires RAW.

I think the Canon G10 or G11 (Ricoh has a nice one as well. I forget the model (GR8Perhaps?) is the only way to go if you want P&S AND the ability to control exposure beyond +/-. I think they still suffer from shutter lag though.

So it looks like you're stuck with the Leica. Don't waste your time and money on the M8 though. It's a stupid, over-priced and clunky camera with a crappy image sensor. They just announced the M9 which reverts back to the way that Leica should be... Expensive, beautiful, simple, elegant, crisp, efficient and perfect. And... compatible with all of their old lenses.

Don't get hung up on megapixels, especially on the P&S cameras. Once you cram more than about 6MP into those tiny sensors image quality starts to degrade. There are lots of great examples of this on line. Unfortunately, photo editors still get hung on this one. If they are paying your bills, do what they say. If the pics are for you though, put your loupe away and just pay attention to what your eye sees. I've made beautiful, beautiful 36" prints from 2 MB files.


For powerful opinions and lots of information, read what Ken Rockwell (www.kenrockwell.com) has to say. Most pros hate him because he makes fun of RAW and the people who shoot it but there's a ton of good info there.

Good luck and post up photos when you get them.

Mal

5 star post!

Another tip:

If you will be shooting some action shots and you really really really want to stay with a point and shoot size. Many of the cameras today are coming equipped with decent enough video to pull stills from. Using Mal's disclaimer, if these are shots for sale this will not always be a really useful trick, however, for your own use you can get some really nice images with a little PS work.


nattfodd


Sep 13, 2009, 5:32 AM
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gmggg wrote:
maldaly wrote:
This subject has been beat to death with tons of good suggestions and info if you do a search. Don't look too far back though. Digi-tech is changing so fast that reviews from even a year ago could be obsolete.

You don't say anything about what you are going to do with your pics. Are you a pro who sells to customers who demand RAW images? If so, you narrow your choices to just an handful of the compact cameras.

Why do you need a viewfinder? Although I'm much more comfortable with a viewfinder, I find that the images I make from my LCD-only P&S camera come out just fine. Because I'm not shooting film and can make many images for only the cost of the time it takes to sort and massage them, the need for perfect framing is growing obsolete.

Are you shooting still or slow moving objects that let you deal with the shutter lag that virtually all compacts exhibit? The biggest difference between DSLRs and DP&S cameras is the shutter lag. When I'm shooting people, sports and moving action and need instant shutter release, the DSLR is the only way to go. Shooting climbers and landscapes and scenery? P&S is fine unless your customers requires RAW.

I think the Canon G10 or G11 (Ricoh has a nice one as well. I forget the model (GR8Perhaps?) is the only way to go if you want P&S AND the ability to control exposure beyond +/-. I think they still suffer from shutter lag though.

So it looks like you're stuck with the Leica. Don't waste your time and money on the M8 though. It's a stupid, over-priced and clunky camera with a crappy image sensor. They just announced the M9 which reverts back to the way that Leica should be... Expensive, beautiful, simple, elegant, crisp, efficient and perfect. And... compatible with all of their old lenses.

Don't get hung up on megapixels, especially on the P&S cameras. Once you cram more than about 6MP into those tiny sensors image quality starts to degrade. There are lots of great examples of this on line. Unfortunately, photo editors still get hung on this one. If they are paying your bills, do what they say. If the pics are for you though, put your loupe away and just pay attention to what your eye sees. I've made beautiful, beautiful 36" prints from 2 MB files.


For powerful opinions and lots of information, read what Ken Rockwell (www.kenrockwell.com) has to say. Most pros hate him because he makes fun of RAW and the people who shoot it but there's a ton of good info there.

Good luck and post up photos when you get them.

Mal

5 star post!

Another tip:

If you will be shooting some action shots and you really really really want to stay with a point and shoot size. Many of the cameras today are coming equipped with decent enough video to pull stills from. Using Mal's disclaimer, if these are shots for sale this will not always be a really useful trick, however, for your own use you can get some really nice images with a little PS work.

5 star post for a guy who recommends the Leica M9?


atlnq9


Sep 13, 2009, 7:43 AM
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If I had that kind of money laying around I would buy leica. But then if I had that kind of money to burn I would be climbing all over the world instead of spending it on a camera.

I did end up buying a dslr. Original with my 35mm I shot some sports for money (rich soccer moms). This is why I had the fast zooms. But then I got away from that because I rarely made more than $5/hr all said and done. I then went to the medium format and sold some of my landscapes, still by no means an income. However it is too expensive and actually quite hard to get climbing photos because it is all manual...

I purchased the Pentax K7 and 16-50 2.8 lens. I think this was the right camera for the direction I am heading. Now I must say going from the 1v canon to 6x7 to digital is the most awkward transition. Right now using the camera I always seem to forget I can zoom, there are way to many buttons and options for me to wrap my head around. Digital is going to take a while to learn. I have already figured out that warming filters are useless, apparently the auto white balance automatically corrects for it. So now I just need to learn more of these things like using the histogram and white balance..
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gmggg


Sep 13, 2009, 8:01 AM
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atlnq9 wrote:
If I had that kind of money laying around I would buy leica. But then if I had that kind of money to burn I would be climbing all over the world instead of spending it on a camera.

I did end up buying a dslr. Original with my 35mm I shot some sports for money (rich soccer moms). This is why I had the fast zooms. But then I got away from that because I rarely made more than $5/hr all said and done. I then went to the medium format and sold some of my landscapes, still by no means an income. However it is too expensive and actually quite hard to get climbing photos because it is all manual...

I purchased the Pentax K7 and 16-50 2.8 lens. I think this was the right camera for the direction I am heading. Now I must say going from the 1v canon to 6x7 to digital is the most awkward transition. Right now using the camera I always seem to forget I can zoom, there are way to many buttons and options for me to wrap my head around. Digital is going to take a while to learn. I have already figured out that warming filters are useless, apparently the auto white balance automatically corrects for it. So now I just need to learn more of these things like using the histogram and white balance..

Don't always trust the histogram either...

If your camera doesn't have a YRGB histogram don't bother looking at it. If it does, be wary of the luminescence value sometimes it is pulled from one of the RGB values and sometimes it is computed from those values instead of actually being measured depending on that camera. The cool cool thing is that you can just look at the LCD screen and get a pretty good idea of what adjustments you need to make. And filters work pretty well, as long as you adjust white balance manually, which isn't too hard with practice. And on another positive note ISO will be much, much easier to deal with than your previous experiences.


wes_allen


Sep 13, 2009, 11:37 AM
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[quote "gmggg" And filters work pretty well, as long as you adjust white balance manually, which isn't too hard with practice
Why would you even use warming/cooling filters when you can make the same effect happen by just setting your WB to the look you want? And that is just what you can do in camera, without tweaking in post.


gmggg


Sep 13, 2009, 11:54 AM
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wes_allen wrote:
[quote "gmggg" And filters work pretty well, as long as you adjust white balance manually, which isn't too hard with practice

Why would you even use warming/cooling filters when you can make the same effect happen by just setting your WB to the look you want? And that is just what you can do in camera, without tweaking in post.
That's a really good point, and correct. I guess I got carried away answering the question!


altelis


Sep 13, 2009, 12:57 PM
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wes_allen wrote:
gmggg wrote:
And filters work pretty well, as long as you adjust white balance manually, which isn't too hard with practice

Why would you even use warming/cooling filters when you can make the same effect happen by just setting your WB to the look you want? And that is just what you can do in camera, without tweaking in post.

For me one the important parts of doing the analog-digital transition was learning what you can/should do in camera, what you can/should leave to post, and what you CAN"T do in either. Things like polarizer filters. And while technically you can do graduated ND work post production is WAY easier to do it with a filter....these are just things you need to sort out and have become ingrained. I will say that the more you do pre-computer (in terms of work-flow) the better...


gmggg


Sep 13, 2009, 2:33 PM
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altelis wrote:
wes_allen wrote:
gmggg wrote:
And filters work pretty well, as long as you adjust white balance manually, which isn't too hard with practice

Why would you even use warming/cooling filters when you can make the same effect happen by just setting your WB to the look you want? And that is just what you can do in camera, without tweaking in post.

For me one the important parts of doing the analog-digital transition was learning what you can/should do in camera, what you can/should leave to post, and what you CAN"T do in either. Things like polarizer filters. And while technically you can do graduated ND work post production is WAY easier to do it with a filter....these are just things you need to sort out and have become ingrained. I will say that the more you do pre-computer (in terms of work-flow) the better...

You are right, but wes was talking about warming/cooling filters specifically.


atlnq9


Sep 13, 2009, 2:39 PM
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Re: [altelis] Looking for a digital camera [In reply to]
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Right, it will take a while to learn what I can do in camera. I am still use to having 8 filters in order to get the desired effect. So my immediate reaction was that a warming filter would work, not to adjust the white balance. So basically what I understand from reading online is the two filter that I still must use are the graduated ND and the polarizer. I must say it is even taking a while to get used to being able to take as many pictures as I want, it use to be I would only take a picture when the scene was perfect and I knew the exposure was right (that $5/pic was terrible but the 50mb jpegs were awesome).


altelis


Sep 13, 2009, 2:39 PM
Post #22 of 22 (2970 views)
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Re: [gmggg] Looking for a digital camera [In reply to]
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gmggg wrote:
altelis wrote:
wes_allen wrote:
gmggg wrote:
And filters work pretty well, as long as you adjust white balance manually, which isn't too hard with practice

Why would you even use warming/cooling filters when you can make the same effect happen by just setting your WB to the look you want? And that is just what you can do in camera, without tweaking in post.

For me one the important parts of doing the analog-digital transition was learning what you can/should do in camera, what you can/should leave to post, and what you CAN"T do in either. Things like polarizer filters. And while technically you can do graduated ND work post production is WAY easier to do it with a filter....these are just things you need to sort out and have become ingrained. I will say that the more you do pre-computer (in terms of work-flow) the better...

You are right, but wes was talking about warming/cooling filters specifically.

YOU are right, but the OP mentioned the others....Tongue

MY point being that if those are "effects" he wants he has to make sure either his old filters are compatible with the new lenses or that he gets new filters....


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