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shockabuku
Aug 17, 2009, 4:04 AM
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Nothing new here.
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stb
Aug 17, 2009, 4:38 AM
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Human error again.
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climbdork
Aug 17, 2009, 6:41 AM
Post #4 of 23
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A bad workman always blames his tools.
I worked in a gym for over 3 years that had GriGri's fixed onto the topropes (made replacing the worn-out topropes a real chore) and never saw drop anyone else. How could this be, when people are dropping others on GriGri's all over the world? I put it all on PROPER TRAINING. That gym did not allow any member or guest to belay without being thoroughly checked out on proper GriGri use nor any staff to teach how to use a GriGri without being thoroughly checked out on properly imparting the proper skills. Simply put, it's not the tool, it's whether those using it know how, (save the double entendres) and take seriously their responsibility to get proper training and to use the tool in accordance with that training.
Plus, with the GriGri's fixed on the ropes, there was that much less chance of improper feeding, which is the number one "pilot error"-type cause of dropping a climber with a GriGri.
(This post was edited by climbdork on Aug 17, 2009, 8:51 AM)
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csproul
Aug 17, 2009, 1:54 PM
Post #5 of 23
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You know, "human error" is kind of a lame excuse for a safety product. A well engineered safety product makes it unlikely that human error can or will occur. I'm not saying this is the case with the Grigri, just that most any accident can be blamed on "human error" and that good safety measures make such errors less likely. That said, using a Grigri correctly is not that complicated.
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acorneau
Aug 17, 2009, 3:08 PM
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Best line of the article, which so many people seem to ignore:
In reply to: The AALA says the equipment should not be considered an ‘automatic locking device’. |
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jakedatc
Aug 17, 2009, 3:22 PM
Post #7 of 23
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csproul wrote: You know, "human error" is kind of a lame excuse for a safety product. A well engineered safety product makes it unlikely that human error can or will occur. I'm not saying this is the case with the Grigri, just that most any accident can be blamed on "human error" and that good safety measures make such errors less likely. That said, using a Grigri correctly is not that complicated.
So... if you drive your car into a wall it's the car's fault? They are highly engineered to run perfectly straight, take corners, drive very well when done correctly. Stick a noobie with no clue behind the wheel and say go doesn't work out very well either. yet this is what gyms etc do with Gri Gri's with usually pretty short instructions and then even less supervision.
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majid_sabet
Aug 17, 2009, 4:14 PM
Post #8 of 23
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jakedatc wrote: csproul wrote: You know, "human error" is kind of a lame excuse for a safety product. A well engineered safety product makes it unlikely that human error can or will occur. I'm not saying this is the case with the Grigri, just that most any accident can be blamed on "human error" and that good safety measures make such errors less likely. That said, using a Grigri correctly is not that complicated. So... if you drive your car into a wall it's the car's fault? They are highly engineered to run perfectly straight, take corners, drive very well when done correctly. Stick a noobie with no clue behind the wheel and say go doesn't work out very well either. yet this is what gyms etc do with Gri Gri's with usually pretty short instructions and then even less supervision.
stick a clueless climbing gear sales person behind the desk or a clueless gym employee who does not know how a device works with bunch of n00bie, you will end up with the same result.
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csproul
Aug 17, 2009, 4:18 PM
Post #9 of 23
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jakedatc wrote: csproul wrote: You know, "human error" is kind of a lame excuse for a safety product. A well engineered safety product makes it unlikely that human error can or will occur. I'm not saying this is the case with the Grigri, just that most any accident can be blamed on "human error" and that good safety measures make such errors less likely. That said, using a Grigri correctly is not that complicated. So... if you drive your car into a wall it's the car's fault? They are highly engineered to run perfectly straight, take corners, drive very well when done correctly. Stick a noobie with no clue behind the wheel and say go doesn't work out very well either. yet this is what gyms etc do with Gri Gri's with usually pretty short instructions and then even less supervision.
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jakedatc
Aug 17, 2009, 4:20 PM
Post #10 of 23
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majid_sabet wrote: jakedatc wrote: csproul wrote: You know, "human error" is kind of a lame excuse for a safety product. A well engineered safety product makes it unlikely that human error can or will occur. I'm not saying this is the case with the Grigri, just that most any accident can be blamed on "human error" and that good safety measures make such errors less likely. That said, using a Grigri correctly is not that complicated. So... if you drive your car into a wall it's the car's fault? They are highly engineered to run perfectly straight, take corners, drive very well when done correctly. Stick a noobie with no clue behind the wheel and say go doesn't work out very well either. yet this is what gyms etc do with Gri Gri's with usually pretty short instructions and then even less supervision. stick a clueless climbing gear sales person behind the desk or a clueless gym employee who does not know how a device works with bunch of n00bie, you will end up with the same result.
Sales people sell gear. that is it. at EMS you are not allowed to give instruction.
Gym employee i agree with... that was my point. it's not the device that is the issue. it's the person using it and the instructions that they have received. my gym teaches on ATC's and are the only thing they give out for gear rental packages.
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ryanb
Aug 17, 2009, 4:29 PM
Post #11 of 23
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So you are a cinch fan then?
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majid_sabet
Aug 17, 2009, 4:36 PM
Post #12 of 23
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jakedatc wrote: majid_sabet wrote: jakedatc wrote: csproul wrote: You know, "human error" is kind of a lame excuse for a safety product. A well engineered safety product makes it unlikely that human error can or will occur. I'm not saying this is the case with the Grigri, just that most any accident can be blamed on "human error" and that good safety measures make such errors less likely. That said, using a Grigri correctly is not that complicated. So... if you drive your car into a wall it's the car's fault? They are highly engineered to run perfectly straight, take corners, drive very well when done correctly. Stick a noobie with no clue behind the wheel and say go doesn't work out very well either. yet this is what gyms etc do with Gri Gri's with usually pretty short instructions and then even less supervision. stick a clueless climbing gear sales person behind the desk or a clueless gym employee who does not know how a device works with bunch of n00bie, you will end up with the same result. Sales people sell gear. that is it. at EMS you are not allowed to give instruction. Gym employee i agree with... that was my point. it's not the device that is the issue. it's the person using it and the instructions that they have received. my gym teaches on ATC's and are the only thing they give out for gear rental packages.
you see, you can't just sell a product ( a gear that could kill someone) and then say: sorry, we can't give you instruction"
I agree, you do not want to get sued over an instruction however, you can at least inform people ( face to face) that this device has its own dark side like all the others climbing gear. you may loose a sale but at least you provided proper info like you should. Does this happening in most gear shop ?
I do not think so. I worked in retail and you are hired to sale and not to turn customer around.
let's now look at the gym. Your gym is properly one of the few which actually teaches how use gri gri but this is not true in every gym in America or the rest of the world. Again ,IMO, all gyms must have basic safety course (a mandatory one) where all climbers( n00b or pro) must take to get familiar with all belay devices. now, if you know how a device works then do a demo, get your check mark like how you do when go for a lead test and you are good to go.
Is this 30 minute safety course is been offered in all gyms in America ?
Fu*k no. just pay us the monthly fees, sign your as* and live goodbye on this form and get out there and climb and do not bug us while we are reading some climbing magazine about Dean soloing some sh8t in Argentina.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Aug 17, 2009, 4:37 PM)
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jakedatc
Aug 17, 2009, 5:05 PM
Post #13 of 23
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I'm just telling you the rules given to employees at EMS. Yes, they are worried about getting sued.. I'll use the car analogy again.. the dealer doesn't give 2 shits if you go off the lot and crash into a wall. their job is to sell you the product.. not teach you how to use it.
Grocery stores don't teach you how to cook do they? Gun stores don't show you how to shoot.. They sell a product. it doesn't matter what it is.
Sorry that you want stores to change but don't hold your breath.
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GeneralZon
Aug 17, 2009, 5:21 PM
Post #14 of 23
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In reply to: you see, you can't just sell a product ( a gear that could kill someone) and then say: sorry, we can't give you instruction"
Uh, yes you can. Here is a bit of buying advice for ya: Caveat Emptor, Let the buyer beware.
The only person who is responsible for using the device safely is the user. The retailer is responsible for making sure the product is on the shelf and not damage prior to selling it. The manufacturer is responsible for providing instructions for how to safely use the product. If you buy a Gri Gri (or for that matter any belay device), don't read the directions, go out and use it as a n00b and have someone deck it is 100% the users fault and nobody else.
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curt
Aug 17, 2009, 6:32 PM
Post #15 of 23
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
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csproul wrote: jakedatc wrote: csproul wrote: You know, "human error" is kind of a lame excuse for a safety product. A well engineered safety product makes it unlikely that human error can or will occur. I'm not saying this is the case with the Grigri, just that most any accident can be blamed on "human error" and that good safety measures make such errors less likely. That said, using a Grigri correctly is not that complicated. So... if you drive your car into a wall it's the car's fault? They are highly engineered to run perfectly straight, take corners, drive very well when done correctly. Stick a noobie with no clue behind the wheel and say go doesn't work out very well either. yet this is what gyms etc do with Gri Gri's with usually pretty short instructions and then even less supervision. I agree with you 100%, but I hear this "human error" term thrown out all the time. Of course it's human error! But safety devices can be engineered to make human error less likely or at least lower the consequences of human error...
That's actually what a GriGri was designed to do. Unfortunately, it's quite impossible to engineer around stupidity. Morons can be ever so creative.
Curt
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JAB
Aug 18, 2009, 7:57 PM
Post #16 of 23
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ryanb wrote: So you are a cinch fan then?
The Cinch is no different from the Grigri in this regard.
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ClimbClimb
Aug 21, 2009, 2:54 AM
Post #17 of 23
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I don't think "human error" is really the point. With any life-critical equipment, be it airplane cockpits, medical equipment or climbing gear, the goal of the design is to reduce the probability of accident. It is reasonable to recommend against products which, while perhaps superior in other ways, possess characteristics that make them more likely to be dangerous.
Someone used the car example... well, there are cars that are harder to control out there -- perhaps they sip faster, or oversteer, or flip. Yes, that's "driver error", but it's also a point about a car having a higher probability of being involved in a carsh.
This is what human factors design focuses on. Humans are humans -- they make mistakes. There's a reason why even in figheter jets, there's a recorded voice that screams "PULL UP! PULL UP" if the jet is diving towards the ground.
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8616v
Oct 12, 2009, 10:01 PM
Post #18 of 23
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...but the gri gri has such simple clear plain as day instructions stamped into the metal...all you have to do is have an IQ above room temp and poses basic image comprehension skills to figure out how to use the damn thing, it really can't be much more idiot proof and remain useful. some people are just too stupid or in too much of a hurry for their own good...these people will continually injure/kill themselves(and unfortunately others)....some of the responsibility falls to the climber to make sure they aren't trusting their life to one of these people.
the first time i used a gri gri i picked up a old used one laying around some kinda shady gym i climbed at for a month or two...looked at it for about 4 secs...loaded up the rope and got to work...its really not a hard piece of equipment to use properly...
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ClimbClimb
Oct 12, 2009, 10:07 PM
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8616v wrote: ...but the gri gri has such simple clear plain as day instructions stamped into the metal...all you have to do is have an IQ above room temp and poses basic image comprehension skills to figure out how to use the damn thing,
I just don't see it that way. I think it's easy to look at someone else's mistake and say that they must've had "an IQ below room temperature" -- but think of my example above, do you really think fighter pilots don't know that you shouldn't fly your multimillion dollar jet into the ground?
People get distracted, get disoriented, and despite being very smart and very experienced, bad things happen. And that's where the interaction of the equipment and the training can either reduce or increase chance for error.
Plenty of threads in this A&I forum are about very experienced and very intelligent climbers who ended up making what appear to be "dumb" mistakes. I think there's something to be learned from that -- maybe there are circumstances where anyone's effective IQ is below room temp.
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8616v
Oct 13, 2009, 2:23 AM
Post #20 of 23
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fair enough, but the comparison to a fighter pilot is inaccurate. those verbal warnings are for when the pilot has become spatially disoriented...not exactly some thing that can be trained out...some times it just happens. setting up a belay device(especially on TR in a gym) is a pretty calm controlled situation.
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unrest
Oct 13, 2009, 7:35 PM
Post #21 of 23
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curt wrote: That's actually what a GriGri was designed to do. Unfortunately, it's quite impossible to engineer around stupidity. Morons can be ever so creative. Curt
Your assessment is spot on. All the others really are noise. I've used every device under the sun to belay. I prefer a GriGri 10:1 over anything else. Before I live the ground I check my harness, my knot, my belayers harness and belayers knot. I then yank on the rope going into the GriGri. That cam better pitch up. If it doesn't we fix it then and there. We repeat the test and if it passes we climb.
The mistake here is belaying is a means of controlling the rope independant of the tool being used. In a proper belay you limit friction to control a fall. The end. The gear you use (body, ATC, Plate, Cinch, GriGri) is gear that assists you. In the end your hand must be on that rope. In a fall your hands go in the lock-off position and if you get a boost you hold on tighter. If you slam into the first bolt or the rock then you *AND* the climber are at fault for not establishing the boundaries of a safe belay stance. Nobody says, "The rock was dangerous or chop that bolt I hit."
When a GriGri is misthreaded the climber is more responsible than the belayer. Dang! Both people are at fault. The devices used "assist" in a proper belay that's it. The belayer is the belay and they are assisted by their gear.
The End!
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paulcblais
Oct 18, 2009, 2:14 AM
Post #22 of 23
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the auto-lock feature on the Gri Gri is a BACKUP and should never replace proper belay technique. that's what i taught my daughter (13yr old) we learned on the ATC long before the gri gri. i just like the extra safety backup when she is belaying me. it's nice for the hangdoging buddy also
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ClimbClimb
Oct 18, 2009, 3:17 AM
Post #23 of 23
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paulcblais wrote: the auto-lock feature on the Gri Gri is a BACKUP and should never replace proper belay technique.
True, but that's not the point. What matters is what lasrge numbers of people do when they interact with the device... if the use of the device appears, from the evidence, to lead to higher incidence of improper belay tecnique compared to the simpler alternative device, than its legitimate to ask questions about the device.
The fact that it can be used safely is wonderful but not very relevant, unfortunately. This is the same as the discussion about rapping-off-end-of-rope and rope markings -- again, if you're careful and know the rope, it doesnt' matter if there are end-rope marks as well as mid-rope marks. But if you're not, bad things happen. Is it "user error"? Sure. Can a change of equipment reduce the chances for "user error"? Yes.
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