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jmvc
Jul 8, 2009, 10:37 AM
Post #26 of 59
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PS: They show it on a munter hitch but you can do it just fine ona tube style device.
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rockandlice
Jul 8, 2009, 5:19 PM
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jmvc wrote: PS: They show it on a munter hitch but you can do it just fine ona tube style device.
I think I would specify quite a bit further. Using the diagram you provided would parallel the brake and climber leads putting zero friction on a tube device. This is a recipe for disaster.
Perhaps there should be a directional keeping the brake end in a locked direction that we are missing here?
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qtm
Jul 8, 2009, 5:48 PM
Post #28 of 59
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For a tube device- keep it locked off with one hand. With the other, make a bight below the brake hand. Pull the bight through the locker and up and tie it as shown.
Pulling the bight through the locker keeps the rope in a locked off position through the tube device.
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MS1
Jul 8, 2009, 6:17 PM
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Another way to tie-off a tube style belay: Clip the rope in to a biner on your leg loop. (If you are like me, you have a small locker there most of the time with a bit of cord on it for backing up rappels.) Once the rope is run through a locked biner below, you can tie it off above the belay device with a normal mule hitch, without compromising the tube device's friction. I find that this is faster and less finicky than holding tension while I feed a bight through the belay biner.
EDITED TO ADD: Always back up a mule with a backup hitch above the mule. This is especially necessary if you use this variation because the mule is slightly more unstable when tied this way. What I describe above is slightly faster to tie and it is easier to maintain tension on the brake strand while doing it, but it does have that downside. Use at your own risk.
(This post was edited by MS1 on Sep 3, 2009, 1:43 AM)
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shimanilami
Jul 8, 2009, 6:27 PM
Post #30 of 59
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Oh, bother.
Just get yourself a Gri Gri and avoid all this hassle.
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IsayAutumn
Jul 8, 2009, 6:40 PM
Post #31 of 59
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shimanilami wrote: Oh, bother. Just get yourself a Gri Gri and avoid all this hassle.
Hey, I got a badge for this in Scouts!
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spoon
Jul 8, 2009, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: go talk to the local climber and see what they have...in my area, 60 M rope and 8 draws are for really short climbs. we have a lot of climbs that are bolted on a 70 M
Although there are climbs at 32/38 and Smith that require 70m ropes, they are the exception rather than the rule. Moreover, they are almost universally 5.12 and harder. A 60m rope is the right choice.
It wouldn't hurt to get a few more draws though. There are plenty of good moderate routes at 32 that are 10 bolts long, and at least one that is 13 bolts long.
For what it's worth, I climb at these areas often and the only gear I ever bring is a 60m rope, a dozen or so quick draws, and a belay device with a locking carabiner. A sling will make cleaning some anchors a little easier, but you can definitely do without.
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shimanilami
Jul 8, 2009, 6:57 PM
Post #33 of 59
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IsayAutumn wrote: shimanilami wrote: Oh, bother. Just get yourself a Gri Gri and avoid all this hassle. Hey, I got a badge for this in Scouts!
Don't get me wrong. A munter-mule (or ATC-mule) is an extremely useful tool for rescue, hauling, and other load intensive situations. But for sport climbing?!? Hell no. And for a noob? I'd rather take my chances with a Gri Gri, thank you.
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jmvc
Jul 9, 2009, 4:58 PM
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rockandlice wrote: jmvc wrote: PS: They show it on a munter hitch but you can do it just fine ona tube style device. I think I would specify quite a bit further. Using the diagram you provided would parallel the brake and climber leads putting zero friction on a tube device. This is a recipe for disaster. Perhaps there should be a directional keeping the brake end in a locked direction that we are missing here?
My mistake. It is as gtm describes. I just searched for the mule and didn't look to closely at the picture. A good example on why not to trust random info on the internet!
Hoping nobody has decked as a result of my advice 
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jmvc
Jul 9, 2009, 5:02 PM
Post #35 of 59
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shimanilami wrote: But for sport climbing?!? Hell no.
Why on earth not?
Like I say, i generally use a grigri, just for ease of boiking and suchlike, but when belaying somebody with an ATC who is projecting and tells me they need a rest, I always throw one in. Why sit there hanging on to the rope when it takes 5 seconds and is perfectly safe?
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shimanilami
Jul 9, 2009, 5:49 PM
Post #36 of 59
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jmvc wrote: shimanilami wrote: But for sport climbing?!? Hell no. Why on earth not? Like I say, i generally use a grigri, just for ease of boiking and suchlike, but when belaying somebody with an ATC who is projecting and tells me they need a rest, I always throw one in. Why sit there hanging on to the rope when it takes 5 seconds and is perfectly safe?
You are not wrong, but in my world, "sport climbing" = Gri Gri. If I showed up at a sport crag and only had my ATC, I'd ask around to borrow a Gri Gri until I found one.
And if I couldn't find one, I'd tell my partner he's a jackass for not bringing his or reminding me to bring mine. And, consequently, for that day, I'd only give him one fall per burn before lowering him to the dirt.
So, at least for me, "Hell no" applies.
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jbf101
Sep 2, 2009, 3:03 AM
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I too am looking to put together a sport "rack"
The draws i was looking at are the BD-Livewire (10 CM) and BD-Quickwire (12/18 cm).
I was thinking of getting 5 10cm, 3 12cm, and 2 18cm... Should cover all my bases as far as Draws and lengths are concerned, both had good reviews and money is no object (Go go gadget deployment money) However some advice from people who know what they are talking about is always welcome.
A Petzl Grigri is also on the list of things to buy when i return home...
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seatbeltpants
Sep 2, 2009, 4:39 AM
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jbf101 wrote: I too am looking to put together a sport "rack" The draws i was looking at are the BD-Livewire (10 CM) and BD-Quickwire (12/18 cm). I was thinking of getting 5 10cm, 3 12cm, and 2 18cm... Should cover all my bases as far as Draws and lengths are concerned, both had good reviews and money is no object (Go go gadget deployment money) However some advice from people who know what they are talking about is always welcome. A Petzl Grigri is also on the list of things to buy when i return home...
i can't comment on the biners as i just use whatever the hell i picked up at the time, but as far as lengths go i'd personally go for 5 of the 18s and 5 of the 12s. 10 seems damn short to me, and i'm not sure there's any reason to get both 10 and 12 (pretty similar). ymmv.
steve
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jbf101
Sep 2, 2009, 5:02 AM
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A very valid point, and thank you.
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USnavy
Sep 2, 2009, 8:28 AM
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jbf101 wrote: I too am looking to put together a sport "rack" The draws i was looking at are the BD-Livewire (10 CM) and BD-Quickwire (12/18 cm). I was thinking of getting 5 10cm, 3 12cm, and 2 18cm... Should cover all my bases as far as Draws and lengths are concerned, both had good reviews and money is no object (Go go gadget deployment money) However some advice from people who know what they are talking about is always welcome. A Petzl Grigri is also on the list of things to buy when i return home...
If you plan to lead a lot I would get some Petzl Spirits. They are among the best. I could have whatever draw I want and I choose Spirits to climb here in Hawaii. The longest route in Hawaii is 12 bolts. I would recommend 8 of the shortest lengths, 2 moderate length draws and 2 longer draws. You could get by with more longer draws instead of shorter ones if you want to cut down on drag a bit but make sure you have at least 4 shorter draws for the first few bolts. You don’t want to be taking long falls close to the ground. If you don’t want to spend quite that much money, the Trango Basic draws are rather nice as well. They clip very easily and they are inexpensive. The only drawback is the measly 7 kN open gate rating on the older style and 8 kN on the newer style.
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jbf101
Sep 2, 2009, 9:49 AM
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Thanks
I was looking at the Team Climb Aloha site to actually look at routes and whatnot.
I figure i need to actually go into a rock climbing shop and actually play around with some draws/biners before making any final decisions.
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MS1
Sep 2, 2009, 3:13 PM
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Go with livewires and then some of the longer spirits (or maybe just the long spirit dogbones with the livewire biner set). The floppy, skinny sling and the non-keylock bolt biner on the quickwire will be annoying, I guarantee it.
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dagibbs
Sep 2, 2009, 3:17 PM
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james481 wrote: The 240cm (orange) Mammut 8mm slings are excellent for this purpose, though be aware that after falling on it a few times, the overhand knots will be very difficult or impossible to untie,.
Put a biner through the overhand knot. Gives you a great handle for untieing them.
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brotherbbock
Sep 2, 2009, 4:33 PM
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"Sport Rack".............hah.
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MS1
Sep 2, 2009, 4:36 PM
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What exactly has you so concerned? I've done this many times without a problem. (Note: I mistyped when I said tie it off above the "biner" --- I meant to type "tie it off above the belay device," which is what I do.)
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MS1
Sep 2, 2009, 5:27 PM
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It's not really an added complication; the rope is passing through a locking biner in either case, my method just uses a different one (which I already have on my harness most of the time). And because you have extra rope length to work with, it is much easier to feed the bight through the other biner while keeping tension on the brake side.
Nor is there anything complicated about tying a mule knot above the belay device with the rope running from your leg loop rather than from the belay biner. It's the same knot, in the same place, just with a longer run of rope to the redirect biner in my case.
Seems like maybe you are taking the position that something is bad just because it is novel, rather than thinking through "Would this actually work?"
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cracklover
Sep 2, 2009, 5:52 PM
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MS1 wrote: Seems like maybe you are taking the position that something is bad just because it is novel, rather than thinking through "Would this actually work?"
No, I'm not. I've thought about it quite enough to realize that 1 - what you describe is a clusterfuck when a simple mule will and does work, and 2 - you're probably tying something screwy in place of your mule knot.
Mule knots need a biner to go through, and work in opposition to the force. You have no biner "above your belay device", nor is tying a mule there in opposition to the force, since the force, in your scenario, is now coming from your leg loop.
I still have no idea what you're doing in place of a regular mule knot. Who knows, maybe it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. If you think so, I'll let you prove that.
GO
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MS1
Sep 2, 2009, 7:00 PM
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It is tied exactly like a mule knot, with the biner being farther below the knot. The oppositional force comes from the leg-loop-biner, and it is more than adequate to keep the knot in place.
As for "proving" to you that it works---whatever. I have used it many times and it has never slipped or caused any sort of problem. If you don't care to try it that is fine by me.
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