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cracklover
Sep 2, 2009, 7:52 PM
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MS1 wrote: It is tied exactly like a mule knot, with the biner being farther below the knot. The oppositional force comes from the leg-loop-biner, and it is more than adequate to keep the knot in place.
A mule knot, in order to be a mule knot, is tied by passing a bight of rope through a biner, giving it a half twist, and then, around the spine of the biner, passing another bight through that first bight. Around which biner is the mule knot tied? Or are you not, in fact, tying a mule at all?
In reply to: As for "proving" to you that it works---whatever. I have used it many times and it has never slipped or caused any sort of problem. If you don't care to try it that is fine by me.
You don't have to prove anything to me. I already know how to tie a mule knot, and have no problem doing so under load. But you claimed that yours is a better way. So far, you've been unable to even explain what the hell you're doing, much less prove that it's superior to the tried-and-true method.
But all this is just frosting on the shit-cake. Even if your lousy idea was really a better mule than the real mule, rather than the ticking time bomb it probably is in reality, it would still be lousy advice for the OP. You think this is going to work when the OP's partner wants to boink up the rope?
Not so much.
GO
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MS1
Sep 2, 2009, 8:08 PM
Post #52 of 59
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http://books.google.com/...%20hitch&f=false
Tied around the rope, not around the spine of the biner. Mine look just like the one in the link, but they go through the leg loop biner, not the belay biner. Since you tie yours around the belay biner, I can see why you were confused. But tying the mule on the rope is taught in many climbing texts, so it's hardly some freak thing to do.
And I think the OP will probably be happier using a gri-gri than tying off his hangdogging friends. But maybe he is too cheap to buy one this early in his climbing life, or maybe he will sometimes forget his grigri but have a tube-style device. In that case my method works and I find it a little faster and safer to tie than the more standard way, because you don't have to pinch the rope against the ATC in that awkward way while feeding the bight; you can hold it solidly with one hand while feeding the bight with the other.
(This post was edited by MS1 on Sep 2, 2009, 8:13 PM)
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cracklover
Sep 2, 2009, 10:45 PM
Post #53 of 59
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In fig 2-16 they do not have a bight passed through the biner, but a single strand. To do that, you have to have a loose end. I dunno what they're doing, they may call it a Mule, but it's not feasible at the crag. I suspect you're not doing what they're doing in that picture, because you need to be right at the end of the rope for that to work.
Anyway, I think what you're doing is the version of the Mule typically used in conjunction with a munter hitch.
In this series, the mule is the last image on the top row through the third image on the second row:
If so, you'd damn well better tie that off, because it's not safe the way you're doing it without a tie-off. In the standard usage, in conjunction with the munter, it comes right out of the biner and up around the rope, and this section is taut. This is safe.
But the way you're doing it is not, because of the loop you've introduced. If anything were to snag on that loop of rope you've created, your mule gets pulled sideways, and can come right out.
If you pull it sideways, you are now pulling on a half a sheep shank. A shank is *not* a life-saving knot. It is a temporary means to shorten a rope, and can pull out under heavy load, or even fall apart when the load disappears! This is a sheep shank:
Again, in the standard use of this type of mule, there is no loop to snag, as it is coming straight out of the biner. The way you are doing it is only as good as the overhand backup.
GO
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MS1
Sep 2, 2009, 11:19 PM
Post #54 of 59
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You are wrong. You version of the mule and mine have exactly the same weakness --- if you pull on the slack end of the rope they come loose, absent a backup knot (which you should always, always tie). You think the extra loop changes this but it does knot; pulling on the loop running through the leg loop does not loosen the mule hitch. Only tugging on the slack end of the rope would do that. And a mule on a biner (or pulled through the belay biner and tied up on the line like a munter mule) still has a slack end that can untie a mule if you pull on it unless you've tied the backup hitch.
I respect your climbing experience, and I realize that part of the problem may be that my set up is hard to visualize if you haven't done it personally. But the extra loop changes nothing about the security of the mule.
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cracklover
Sep 3, 2009, 1:04 AM
Post #55 of 59
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MS1 wrote: You are wrong. You version of the mule and mine have exactly the same weakness --- if you pull on the slack end of the rope they come loose, absent a backup knot (which you should always, always tie). You think the extra loop changes this but it does knot; pulling on the loop running through the leg loop does not loosen the mule hitch. Only tugging on the slack end of the rope would do that. And a mule on a biner (or pulled through the belay biner and tied up on the line like a munter mule) still has a slack end that can untie a mule if you pull on it unless you've tied the backup hitch. I respect your climbing experience, and I realize that part of the problem may be that my set up is hard to visualize if you haven't done it personally. But the extra loop changes nothing about the security of the mule.
If you are tying the munter version of the mule (as pictured in my last post) then I have no difficulty visualizing what you're doing.
And no, obviously I'm not talking about pulling the slack end. Pulling the slack end undoes the slip knot in any mule. That's not a "weakness", it's the whole point of the mule - it's what allows it to release under load!
I'm talking about the loop that goes down to the biner on your leg loop and back up. Pull on that sideways, and all you have is a half hitch holding the climber.
Tying this type of mule coming straight out of a munter, it doesn't have the failure mode you've introduced, because the mule is pulled down into the biner.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 19, 2010, 5:10 PM)
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MS1
Sep 3, 2009, 1:39 AM
Post #56 of 59
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Oh, I see what you are saying. Yes, if you fail to back this up with the extra half-hitch, it is unstable. But once backed up, it can't untwist in the way you are worried about. When I've used it I've always backed it up sufficiently that I do not think that what you are pointing out is a real-world safety concern. After all, it's not like I'm using this to tie someone off while I go out for a burger; I'm standing right there (usually with a hand lightly holding the brake strand) so I can see that the backup isn't working loose.
But for the record: If you are a retard and don't back up your mule knot with a half hitch (or if you tie a half hitch so short it can work loose), then do not use my variation.
And for the sake of conciliation, I will even note that this was maybe unwise to describe to people starting out in sport climbing, who might tie a crappy short backup knot, or even forget to tie one. Now, they shouldn't be relying on my crappy post for their safety instruction, but still, why take the risk.
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MS1
Sep 3, 2009, 1:46 AM
Post #57 of 59
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I edited the original posting to make this limitation clear.
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cracklover
Sep 3, 2009, 3:08 AM
Post #58 of 59
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Cool.
GO
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daggerx
Feb 18, 2010, 10:04 PM
Post #59 of 59
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dam when I first started about 8 years ago, I had a 40 meter rope, 20 feet of cord, harness, atc, maby 2 cara. and 6 draws,
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