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unrest


Sep 4, 2009, 7:58 AM
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Quick draws for trad draws???
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So yesterday I was out doing some trad work and there was another leader there who was doing something interesting. So interesting I thought I'd get a consensus here.

He had his rack organized in the usual way. 2 pieces per and sorted by size. However he was using regular length quick draws for trad draws. ??? Huh ??? I asked him about it and he explained it makes racking easier for him. If he's climbing sport he detaches the cams and wedges leaving the draws. If he's on trad he's got draws ready to go. If he needs to extend them he's got a half-dozen non-lockers and a bunch of slings (single, double, triple) that he can extend with. It seemed odd to me.

A few things.

- His rack was tidy. The way he clipped the draws on to the trad pieces had the draws hanging no lower than his trad pieces.

- Cams were on blue Black Diamond draws. Wedges were on red Mammut draws.

- Extra biners were on slings and then clipped to a section of his rack where he could unclip and shake em' out for extensions.

He said that it saved him money and gave him dual-use. When I thought about that it made sense. A dyneema sling is going to be $6 to $17 biners on each end will be $5 to $10 each. You can get 6 BD draws for $90 which is $15 each. The quicks just seemed to be a clean and fast solution that had dual use and were easy enough to extend.

Is this unusual? It's a first for me. I've never seen it. So I thought I'd come here and hit up the locals.


johnwesely


Sep 4, 2009, 8:09 AM
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Huh?


unrest


Sep 4, 2009, 8:24 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
Huh?

Kind of what I thought too. Still it worked for him. Looking up it was working really well for him.


johnwesely


Sep 4, 2009, 8:26 AM
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I don't get the system. Was he clipping all of his pieces with sport draws, and then clipping longer slings to the sport draws?


unrest


Sep 4, 2009, 8:29 AM
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He was clipping the line with sport draws and if he needed a longer draw he'd either just use a sling with 2 biners or extend the sport draw.


johnwesely


Sep 4, 2009, 8:36 AM
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Re: [unrest] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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I don't personally like using sport draws for trad climbing, but that sounds pretty much standard to me.


shockabuku


Sep 4, 2009, 8:37 AM
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Re: [unrest] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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unrest wrote:
He was clipping the line with sport draws and if he needed a longer draw he'd either just use a sling with 2 biners or extend the sport draw.

What does "extend the sport draw" mean? Clip a sling with another biner to the bottom biner of the sport draw? Sounds like he's probably carrying a lot of extra draws that don't serve a critical purpose.


unrest


Sep 4, 2009, 8:44 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
I don't personally like using sport draws for trad climbing, but that sounds pretty much standard to me.

I have to give the guy credit. He could climb, place gear and move quickly. His lines were clean and straight and when I looked at it all it made crazy sense. I mean climbing is so steeped in traditions and yet many times things are done a certain way to keep you alive so changing that certain way might shorten life. However it all just looked very clean. He could spot his placed stoppers or cams just by the draw color. He didn't have a nest of slings to sort out.

But my brain kept saying "Nobody does this. Why does it look so much better though?"

If you are at all curious go run a line that way. It's easier to second because you know if you are coming up on a cam or stopper (cleaning cams is much easier) and stoppers may require a better stance or hang-dog if they are wedged in.

I looked up his route that he placed just for me to see it in practice and it just looked cleaner and organized to me. Not a bunch of colors and lengths. Just 2 colors and the occasional extension. When he extends he prefers to use a draw first so he knows it's a stopper or whatever. Sometimes he racks cams on the right and wedges/stoppers on the left so then he knows which stance to take cleaning it or whatever.

It just hit me all weird to see it but I guess I kind of liked it. I'm getting ready to replace all my 1" tied slings and his setup had consistency that I could relate too and I have all the draws already. No need to drop $300 on slings.


Partner cracklover


Sep 4, 2009, 8:47 AM
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Re: [unrest] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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unrest wrote:
So yesterday I was out doing some trad work and there was another leader there who was doing something interesting. So interesting I thought I'd get a consensus here.

He had his rack organized in the usual way. 2 pieces per and sorted by size.

Let me stop you there. The "usual way" is: each cam gets its own biner, one to three biners for all your nuts, and and then maybe another biner for tricams or hexes.

In reply to:
However he was using regular length quick draws for trad draws. ??? Huh ??? I asked him about it and he explained it makes racking easier for him. If he's climbing sport he detaches the cams and wedges leaving the draws.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you're saying here, aside from the fact that he uses sport dogbones in some way.

In reply to:
If he's on trad he's got draws ready to go. If he needs to extend them he's got a half-dozen non-lockers and a bunch of slings (single, double, triple) that he can extend with. It seemed odd to me.

What he's doing is probably unconventional, but I have absolutely no clue what that is. Could you try again?

In reply to:
- His rack was tidy. The way he clipped the draws on to the trad pieces had the draws hanging no lower than his trad pieces.

Was his protection attached to sport draws on his rack? That's totally stupid, for a whole ton of reasons.

GO


unrest


Sep 4, 2009, 8:51 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
unrest wrote:
What does "extend the sport draw" mean? Clip a sling with another biner to the bottom biner of the sport draw? Sounds like he's probably carrying a lot of extra draws that don't serve a critical purpose.

He had some single, double, triple slings. If the placement wasn't linear and he needed to put a sling on to keep it linear he would clip the bottom of the sport draw with the sling and clip the sling to the rope with an extra biner.

All his gear was on sport draws. Two pieces per draw for bigger gear and 3 for smaller gear. He carried 6 extra non-lockers and about a dozen slings in total.

So I guess if he didn't place the gear he was left carrying a dogbone and 2 biners. I thought about that too and it's no different (might even be lighter) than being left carrying a bunch of slings and non-lockers. Then end result is still 2 biners with a type of runner/sling in between. Sport draw or trad draw it's the same.

He said depending on some routes he has to carry more slings and extra non-lockers (there's the extra weight) to extend the draw with. Not really any different though than some trad setups. I've seen trad gear racked on on all single length slings with leaders carrying extension slings and extra biners if they need to let them out longer.


johnwesely


Sep 4, 2009, 8:52 AM
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Re: [unrest] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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Could you please be more clear. I really have no idea what you are talking about.


unrest


Sep 4, 2009, 8:56 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Was his protection attached to sport draws on his rack? That's totally stupid, for a whole ton of reasons.

GO

Yes.

As to the rest of what you asked just think Camalot C4 in crack. Quickdraw on sling, rope on bent gate and he's gone for his next placement.

If he needs to extend it: Camalot in crack quickdraw on on the sling of the camalot, extension sling on the bent gate and another bent gate on the rope.

Crack far left.
|-[CAMALOT]-[Sport Draw]-[Rope]
or if necessary
|-[CAMALOT]-[Sport Draw]-[Sling]-[Non-locker]-[Rope]

That was his system.

Goofy yes. Did it work? For him. Safety considerations? Yes or no? Unconventional? I thought so.


unrest


Sep 4, 2009, 8:58 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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I did a word picture for cracklover look at it. If I need to I can easily attach a photo. It's not hard at all to reproduce.


unrest


Sep 4, 2009, 9:01 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
Could you please be more clear. I really have no idea what you are talking about.

So this makes sense to me. I thought it was interesting too.


saxfiend


Sep 4, 2009, 9:06 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Was his protection attached to sport draws on his rack? That's totally stupid, for a whole ton of reasons.
Yeah, stupid enough that it sounds like a troll. Can you imagine racking a full set of nuts this way?

If this is for real, I'd say it's a pretty good bet this person has never climbed at the Gunks.

JL


johnwesely


Sep 4, 2009, 9:08 AM
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Ok, I get now because of your word art. Why have the sport draw at all? If it doesn't need extension, then clip into the sling on the cam. If it does, then put a sling on it. It seems like he is carrying around a bunch of extra weight. Especially since sport draws are not at all optimal for trad climbing.


rockandlice


Sep 4, 2009, 9:08 AM
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Re: [unrest] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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I still can't figure out what you are trying to say either. Could you try that again?


unrest


Sep 4, 2009, 9:11 AM
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Re: [saxfiend] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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saxfiend wrote:
If this is for real, I'd say it's a pretty good bet this person has never climbed at the Gunks.

JL

No idea where he climbed but it was real. This would be a weak troll effort. I think I way preferred the troll that couldn't climb because her breasts kept getting in the way. That was a better troll. That was even laughable. This, this is just...odd.


gmggg


Sep 4, 2009, 9:17 AM
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Re: [unrest] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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Sounds like the way I do things for single pitch trad.


Partner cracklover


Sep 4, 2009, 9:17 AM
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Okay, I get it.

It's totally retarded. Sheesh, where should I start?

How about the fact that his rack is all full of dogbones. When I'm carrying a larger rack, it already takes up enough space and is bulky. If I added a dogbone for every other piece, it would be ridiculous. Maybe if you always carry a slim rack of 10 pieces, this is okay, but for me, forget it.

Next, there's the fact that, even if you *did* want a dogbone on your gear (which I never want), half the time you'd have to add one, because you have two pieces per draw. So when you place the first one, you always need to grab a draw from somewhere else.

Next, there's the fact that of all the extension options (no extension, extend with a tripled sling, extend with a full length sling, extend with a long sling, extend with a sport draw), the last one is the one I'd choose the least. So all those dogbones are crap. Why? Because they're stiff and push on the gear in ways that a standard sling doesn't, making cams walk and nuts pop. Fuck that.

Should I go on, or is that enough?

GO


acorneau


Sep 4, 2009, 9:28 AM
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Re: [rockandlice] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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rockandlice wrote:
I still can't figure out what you are trying to say either. Could you try that again?

I believe what he is saying is:

Cam with sewn sling is attached with bolt-end biner of sport draw, then that biner is hooked on gear loop. Take cam off gear loop, place, hook rope into rope-end of sport draw.

The thing I would be concerned about would be if any of the bolt-end biners are gouged from sport-climb falls on hangers, those burrs could abrade/chew up the cam slings pretty quick if not checked.

Edit to add: I only use sport draws on wired nuts when I know they won't be pulled out/sideways, like straight-up crack. I don't like my bolt-end biners on other soft goods if I can help it.


(This post was edited by acorneau on Sep 4, 2009, 9:34 AM)


petsfed


Sep 4, 2009, 9:28 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
Why have the sport draw at all? If it doesn't need extension, then clip into the sling on the cam.

Pardon me for challenging the neo-canon of rock climbing, but the reason you extend a placement is to minimize rope drag, but by extending, you increase the length of any fall. Thus, if you know you need to extend, it makes sense to have many options for how much you extend by. Unless your quickdraws magically stiffen the cam sling or so completely fail to extend the placement that the nut is walked out by the stiff sling, they are certainly sufficient for extending a placement. The reason most trad climbers don't carry them has NOTHING to do with the stiffness of the sling. It is because such short slings are relatively specialized when you get a multi-use tool with a long sling that you can shorten. Why carry a heavier single-use tool when you could carry a multi-use tool for the same weight, right?

Just like it bugs me that we have an entire generation of climbers chanting "trad-draw!" when its just a sling, it bugs me that we have an entire generation of climbers convinced that if they clip their quickdraws to anything but bolts, western civilization will fall. Use your brains for a second and really think about what it is you're saying.

As far as pre-racking slings on pieces, I do it all the time on routes whose sling length I know very well. Hell, climbing in the Flatirons above Boulder, CO, its worthwhile to put everything on a shoulder length sling before you leave the ground.


granite_grrl


Sep 4, 2009, 9:30 AM
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Re: [unrest] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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There isn't a problem using sport draws in place of extendable runners IN THE RIGHT SITUATION. You obviously don't understand why you extend slings on gear in the first place, otherwise you would understand the situation where using a stiffer draw would be okay.

Since I have no idea what this guy you were talking to was climbing and what the gear was like I can't tell you if quick draws were okay or not. I don't feel like explaining all the situations about extending slings but it comes down to: 1) rope drag and 2) likely-hood of pro walking or lifting.


unrest


Sep 4, 2009, 9:34 AM
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1000 words... [In reply to]
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Here I rigged his exact setup including how he racks at the very bottom. If you look at the two above his rack the Camalot 4 and 5 there's no noticeable difference. One is a 12" sling doubled the other is a regular length BD draw.

His rack looks like it' has two Camalots and a draw. He clips one of the two re-racks the other clips in and he's gone.




dingus


Sep 4, 2009, 9:36 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Quick draws for trad draws??? [In reply to]
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So this dude preracks his pro with sport draws already attached. Plus he doubles and triples his pieces on the same biner/draw.

That's it. That's the big mystery.

I use sport draws for trad, you betchya. Carry at least 4, sometimes more depending on the line.

I also carry a few standard length slings tripled up and a couple of longer ones ( or more, route dependant).

Me and my mates tend to sling everything, cams included. So a cam goes in and a sling or draw is clipped to that and then the rope is clipped to the draw.

The only time the draw will already be on the cam is like a crux placement where the let-go time is critical. The rest of the time having all that shit hanging from a gear sling must be MADDENING.

I would not do as this dude does, myself.

DMT

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