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critterdude542


Sep 22, 2009, 6:15 PM
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Clipping runners to your pro
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I have all my cams racked with their own individual carabiners. I carry a handful of draws and a few alpine draws. If i want to extend the piece, I 1) place the piece, 2) clip the alpine draw to the sling, 3) extend and clip the sling leaving the original carabiner still on the cam sling. From rock to rope it goes rock-cam-sling-biner,biner-runner-biner-rope (hope that makes sense)

I end up with two carabiners on the cam sling and one clipped into the rope. is this bad for the biners? should i bother taking the original cam biner off and re-racking it?

what are other solutions and how do some of you do it?

thanks,
Crit


crazy_fingers84


Sep 22, 2009, 6:48 PM
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How could that possibly be bad for the biner?


shockabuku


Sep 22, 2009, 7:03 PM
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critterdude542 wrote:
I have all my cams racked with their own individual carabiners. I carry a handful of draws and a few alpine draws. If i want to extend the piece, I 1) place the piece, 2) clip the alpine draw to the sling, 3) extend and clip the sling leaving the original carabiner still on the cam sling. From rock to rope it goes rock-cam-sling-biner,biner-runner-biner-rope (hope that makes sense)

I end up with two carabiners on the cam sling and one clipped into the rope. is this bad for the biners? should i bother taking the original cam biner off and re-racking it?

what are other solutions and how do some of you do it?

thanks,
Crit

It is bad for the biner. They take this as a sign that you don't believe they can do their job and that you replaced them with a "better" biner. With some professional counseling some of them can recover as long as you stop this practice immediately.

Oh, you're welcome.


CrazyPetie


Sep 22, 2009, 7:04 PM
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Thats how i do it too. I mean maybe the biner that is left on might get scratched or something, i dont see a problem with it. Sometimes i will take it off if i'm at a good stance, just incase i need it for later. I also carry a few slings on my shoulder sometimes and use them to extend cams.


rockandlice


Sep 22, 2009, 7:27 PM
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While it is possible the racking biner could end up under the draw biner during load and POSSIBLY cause an issue, it's not likely. I use to do this myself. I've since switched to using both tripled draws on my harness and runners with a single biner slung over my shoulder. I use the draws for passive gear, and the runners with a single biner for cams which I also rack on their own biners. The runners also come in handy for slinging horns, tree's etc. I use a small rubber ring to secure the rope end biner on my draws which makes them undesirable to use for slinging natural features.


edm


Sep 22, 2009, 7:28 PM
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I know several people who do it that way, and I do it that way myself sometimes. Alternatively, I carry slings over my shoulder with a single biner on each. After placing a cam, I clip the sling into the racking biner on the cam, and the rope into the biner on the sling.


shrug7


Sep 22, 2009, 7:29 PM
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Take'em off... you never know when you'll need a spare biner.


gmggg


Sep 22, 2009, 7:38 PM
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critterdude542 wrote:
I have all my cams racked with their own individual carabiners. I carry a handful of draws and a few alpine draws. If i want to extend the piece, I 1) place the piece, 2) clip the alpine draw to the sling, 3) extend and clip the sling leaving the original carabiner still on the cam sling. From rock to rope it goes rock-cam-sling-biner,biner-runner-biner-rope (hope that makes sense)

I end up with two carabiners on the cam sling and one clipped into the rope. is this bad for the biners? should i bother taking the original cam biner off and re-racking it?

what are other solutions and how do some of you do it?

thanks,
Crit

Like all things it depends. I'll do it your way on single pitch climbs where you are hopping back and forth between things. But I am usually in favor of single biner'd slings over the shoulder. Eliminating the extra biners is great, and you get to look like a cool traddy.


coolcat83


Sep 22, 2009, 8:29 PM
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critterdude542 wrote:
I have all my cams racked with their own individual carabiners. I carry a handful of draws and a few alpine draws. If i want to extend the piece, I 1) place the piece, 2) clip the alpine draw to the sling, 3) extend and clip the sling leaving the original carabiner still on the cam sling. From rock to rope it goes rock-cam-sling-biner,biner-runner-biner-rope (hope that makes sense)

I end up with two carabiners on the cam sling and one clipped into the rope. is this bad for the biners? should i bother taking the original cam biner off and re-racking it?

what are other solutions and how do some of you do it?

thanks,
Crit

It shouldn't be an issue, I do it that way too, but I often will take the racking biner with me, especially if it's not a strenuous placement, then I have some extras If i need, the long slings I just use one biner put it over my shoulder, If I need it i just unclip one end and pull and it's ready for action.


hafilax


Sep 23, 2009, 12:37 AM
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Re: [shrug7] Clipping runners to your pro [In reply to]
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shrug7 wrote:
Take'em off... you never know when you'll need a spare biner.
That will likely slow things down if you're swapping leads.


granite_grrl


Sep 23, 2009, 3:59 AM
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hafilax wrote:
shrug7 wrote:
Take'em off... you never know when you'll need a spare biner.
That will likely slow things down if you're swapping leads.
It's a pain in the ass when reracking in general.


rockandlice


Sep 23, 2009, 6:54 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
hafilax wrote:
shrug7 wrote:
Take'em off... you never know when you'll need a spare biner.
That will likely slow things down if you're swapping leads.
It's a pain in the ass when reracking in general.

+2

especially if you are using the bd coded neutrinos.


dingus


Sep 23, 2009, 7:12 AM
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critterdude542 wrote:
I have all my cams racked with their own individual carabiners. I carry a handful of draws and a few alpine draws. If i want to extend the piece, I 1) place the piece, 2) clip the alpine draw to the sling, 3) extend and clip the sling leaving the original carabiner still on the cam sling. From rock to rope it goes rock-cam-sling-biner,biner-runner-biner-rope (hope that makes sense)

I end up with two carabiners on the cam sling and one clipped into the rope. is this bad for the biners? should i bother taking the original cam biner off and re-racking it?

what are other solutions and how do some of you do it?

thanks,
Crit

Most often I do it the same. Its not biner to biner on the cam though, its two biners side by side on the cam sling, one attached to the runner, the other just hanging there.

You ask if this is bad for the 2nd biner.... and some are laughing at you.

Well... it CAN cause issues. In certain placements the orientation of the biners could emplace the racking biner below the runner biner so that if you fell on it lever action could snap the runner biner like a twig.

That's one concern. For questionable placements and those near an edge, make sure the racking biner is on top and out of the way.

Also, in tight confines, like the narrow back of a wide crack? The two biners can get into a dance of death in there where they are cross clipped and all sorts of what have yous.

If you start watching for potential 'lever-situations' you will start to notice them more and more. I reckon the racking biner gets removed about 5% of the time in my placements, for one reason or another.

Its a valid concern bro.

DMT


IsayAutumn


Sep 23, 2009, 8:04 AM
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dingus wrote:
[
Most often I do it the same. Its not biner to biner on the cam though, its two biners side by side on the cam sling, one attached to the runner, the other just hanging there.

You ask if this is bad for the 2nd biner.... and some are laughing at you.

Well... it CAN cause issues. In certain placements the orientation of the biners could emplace the racking biner below the runner biner so that if you fell on it lever action could snap the runner biner like a twig.

That's one concern. For questionable placements and those near an edge, make sure the racking biner is on top and out of the way.

Also, in tight confines, like the narrow back of a wide crack? The two biners can get into a dance of death in there where they are cross clipped and all sorts of what have yous.

If you start watching for potential 'lever-situations' you will start to notice them more and more. I reckon the racking biner gets removed about 5% of the time in my placements, for one reason or another.

Its a valid concern bro.

DMT

Interesting. Had never thought of that. I never remove the racking biner from the cam slings. I have never needed an extra neutrino and it would cause a lot of wasted time in reracking. But I will now start looking for potential levering situations caused by the extra biner, if I can hold on long enough to look.


dingus


Sep 23, 2009, 8:17 AM
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IsayAutumn wrote:
dingus wrote:
[
Most often I do it the same. Its not biner to biner on the cam though, its two biners side by side on the cam sling, one attached to the runner, the other just hanging there.

You ask if this is bad for the 2nd biner.... and some are laughing at you.

Well... it CAN cause issues. In certain placements the orientation of the biners could emplace the racking biner below the runner biner so that if you fell on it lever action could snap the runner biner like a twig.

That's one concern. For questionable placements and those near an edge, make sure the racking biner is on top and out of the way.

Also, in tight confines, like the narrow back of a wide crack? The two biners can get into a dance of death in there where they are cross clipped and all sorts of what have yous.

If you start watching for potential 'lever-situations' you will start to notice them more and more. I reckon the racking biner gets removed about 5% of the time in my placements, for one reason or another.

Its a valid concern bro.

DMT

Interesting. Had never thought of that. I never remove the racking biner from the cam slings. I have never needed an extra neutrino and it would cause a lot of wasted time in reracking. But I will now start looking for potential levering situations caused by the extra biner, if I can hold on long enough to look.

The other thing I'll do (as opposed to removing a biner) is just clip the runner directly into the racking biner on the cam. The now unused biner on the runner I just clip the rope through that so there are 2 biners on the rope. It transfers the double biner problem out where it usually won't be a problem.

I don't like to leave a loose biner on the runner - I either clip it to the rope, the cam or take it off. It can cause problems floppin around, jamming into the crack, getting cross clipped. Weird shit happens over the course of 3000 pitches.

DMT


hafilax


Sep 23, 2009, 8:42 AM
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You could even clip the extra biner opposite and opposed for the extra warm and fuzzies.


dingus


Sep 23, 2009, 8:45 AM
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Yes but that involves removing and reversing the biner. I do this sometimes on moderate alpine terrain, particularly if I know I'm going to run a ways and esp. when simul climbing.

Then the extra effort is I think worth it.

And for a must noit fail placement? Why not reverse them, I agree, extra warm and fiuzzies (but not MUCH extra haha)

DMT

DMT


ptlong


Sep 23, 2009, 9:05 AM
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dingus wrote:
Yes but that involves removing and reversing the biner.

Depends on how you build your trad draws, doesn't it? Mine are slung so that when the top carabiner is flipped both top and bottom are down and out. So if I did what you do sometimes and slid the top one down next to the bottom one it would already be setup to clip in reversed and opposed.

I usually find it easier to completely unclip the lower carabiner on a tripled sling to extend it and then clip it back in. I tend to leave that extra carabiner on the cam just plinking around, usually benign but yeah, it could be a potential hazard.

Sometimes it's best to get ALL the carabiners attached to the cam sling outathere.


dingus


Sep 23, 2009, 10:37 AM
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Yup.

Awareness is the key. There are lots of very easy solutions so long as the climber is looking for them.

Cheers!
DMT


whippersnapper


Sep 23, 2009, 12:49 PM
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On a multipitch I will carry 4 single and 2 double slings over my shoulder with a single biner on each. When I need to extend a cam, I'll just clip one of these into the biner on the cam. I also carry trad draws on my harness for clipping nuts, etc.

I rack my gear on my harness, If you use a sling this probably won't work.


Partner cracklover


Sep 23, 2009, 2:40 PM
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whippersnapper wrote:
On a multipitch I will carry 4 single and 2 double slings over my shoulder with a single biner on each. When I need to extend a cam, I'll just clip one of these into the biner on the cam. I also carry trad draws on my harness for clipping nuts, etc.

I rack my gear on my harness, If you use a sling this probably won't work.

Nope, I use a gear sling, and it works fine.

Gear goes on the gear sling, which is over the right shoulder (means it hangs on the left side). Tripled runners go on my gear loops out of the way (on my right side). And the four or so runners with a single biner go over the left shoulder, over the gear sling, so they come off easily.

GO


sspssp


Sep 23, 2009, 3:10 PM
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I don't disagree with Dingus that the extra biner floppy around could cause a problem, but I'm not generally going to be that worried about.

The biggest issue I see with your setup is the time it takes and using three biners for one placement. Although I realize you don't have to extend every placement.

I have had longer slings sewn on my cams so I don't have to extend them that much. They dangle lower on harner/gear sling but I the tradeoff is worth it.

I also don't understand why so many climbers shorten their slings only to extend them again. I typically carry the full length slings over my shoulder. So it is remove and clip and remove and put over shoulder. This is faster than remove from harness, extend, clip, unclip, shorten, place on harness.

For alpine situations where weight is critical, I carry rabbit runners (a single piece of webbing with small loops sewn in each end). I clip the ends together with one biner and carry it as a loop around my neck. To exend the cam, you unclip the rabbit runner, clip one end to the biner on the cam and the other end (that had the binner holding the loop together) gets clipped to the rope. This is a slow process, but gives a very long sling using only two biners. But in alpine situations it saves weight (rabbit runner and one biner is light), you typically don't make many placements, you typically have good stances, and you often need long extensions to avoid rope drag on wandering terrain.


(This post was edited by sspssp on Sep 23, 2009, 3:14 PM)


hafilax


Sep 23, 2009, 3:34 PM
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sspssp wrote:
I don't disagree with Dingus that the extra biner floppy around could cause a problem, but I'm not generally going to be that worried about.

The biggest issue I see with your setup is the time it takes and using three biners for one placement. Although I realize you don't have to extend every placement.

I have had longer slings sewn on my cams so I don't have to extend them that much. They dangle lower on harner/gear sling but I the tradeoff is worth it.

I also don't understand why so many climbers shorten their slings only to extend them again. I typically carry the full length slings over my shoulder. So it is remove and clip and remove and put over shoulder. This is faster than remove from harness, extend, clip, unclip, shorten, place on harness.

For alpine situations where weight is critical, I carry rabbit runners (a single piece of webbing with small loops sewn in each end). I clip the ends together with one biner and carry it as a loop around my neck. To exend the cam, you unclip the rabbit runner, clip one end to the biner on the cam and the other end (that had the binner holding the loop together) gets clipped to the rope. This is a slow process, but gives a very long sling using only two biners. But in alpine situations it saves weight (rabbit runner and one biner is light), you typically don't make many placements, you typically have good stances, and you often need long extensions to avoid rope drag on wandering terrain.
It's sounds to me like you're forgetting about passive placements in your criticism of tripled slings on the harness. I've climbed pitches that were almost exclusively nuts and I was glad to have 2 biners on every sling.


dingus


Sep 23, 2009, 4:22 PM
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sspssp wrote:
I also don't understand why so many climbers shorten their slings only to extend them again. I typically carry the full length slings over my shoulder.

Its a matter of style and preference mate. I don't like pulling slings over my head in precarious situations - in fact I can't stand it. Helmets make it worse.

Now somedtimes the need to go light and trim supercedes my distaste and I do as you do.

But I pretty much runner up every placement unless there is deck potential and for cragging and general go faster convenience, the added weight of the 3rd biner is a casual trade off for the increased efficiency of the clip.

Regarding sling length, I do prefer my 'trad-draws' to hang from the harness, tripled up. That keeps them out of the way. Its that or over the shoulder and well, I done tole you I can't stand putting a wad of slinds over my shoulder.

I've done it plenty. I don't like it.

I don't dislike those who do though!

Cheers
DMT


ptlong


Sep 23, 2009, 5:37 PM
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I was going to make the same point Dingus made about getting an over the shoulder sling off in certain circumstances. I'd like add that sometimes I don't want to sling a cam with a full runner but do want to extend it some. A tripled runner does this nicely.

I also like doubled runners or half length (12") slings for some placements. They're not to everybody's liking but, hey, I'm on lead. Deal with it.

One technique for saving carabiners and hence weight is to rack 12" runners with one carabiner each.

Different climb, different mix.


(This post was edited by ptlong on Sep 23, 2009, 5:40 PM)

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