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jt512
Sep 20, 2009, 8:29 PM
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whipper wrote: In reply to: The OP is clearly talking about bodybuilding. He has already talked about gaining four pounds, just in his chest! Jay Do me a favor and read the OP. You dont know shit about body building. You simply can not put on that type of muscle with the workouts he talks about.
Actually, I know a good deal about it. The OP's goal is body building. Whether he can attain his goal with the workout he wants to do is not the point.
Now, have fun arguing with yourself, asshole.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 20, 2009, 8:29 PM)
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MS1
Sep 20, 2009, 10:47 PM
Post #177 of 231
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Aerili: I grant you that squats will not necessarily limit performance (I'd be a fool to argue with you on that point); obviously it's possible to work out at a level that would tone muscles without bulking them up. But let's keep this in context: The OP has a weight-lifting goal of "adding lean muscle" to his body, and I imagine he will be planning his lifting and diet to further that goal. Maybe he is going to balance his muscle gains with fat loss, and if he manages to do so, I wouldn't expect him to see any loss in performance. But if lifting to gain muscle mass is his goal, I'd say there is a good chance he could end up setting back his climbing by weighing more than he needs to.
Do you really think that adding muscle mass to the legs and chest (as opposed to keeping the mass you have toned and strong) couldn't be detrimental to his climbing?
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scion
Sep 21, 2009, 4:33 PM
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suprasoup wrote: scion wrote: aerili wrote: Well, I'm aware that there's some evidence that neural tissue regenerates after certain brain traumas (like stroke, etc.), and the only other evidence I'm aware of is brain cell growth in the hippocampus, which, let's face it, won't help TerminalVelocity with his higher thought process deficits. P.S. Fwiw, I read that the research methodology for measuring the age of nerve cells is extremely complicated, especially in man, and gives unreliable and controversial results. Neurogenesis isn't limited to the hippocampus nor just as a result of trauma. That research was only tangentially related to mine, so I was never very up on it, but figuring out which types of exercise stimulated the most neurogenesis seemed to be a guaranteed high-level publication maybe ten years ago. It is true that there were some ethical complications with getting a definitive answer in humans, but those were pretty well obviated by a group of people who were given BrDU as part of some sort of medical therapy. When they died and their brains could be sectioned and stained it pretty much put the issue to rest even for those last few who were holding out on the basis of human exceptionalism. I could dig up the paper for you if you're interested. I think it came out in Science in maybe 1997 or 1998. I'd be interested in reading it if ya don't mind.
I think this is the paper I was thinking of. It was published in Nature Medicine, not Science:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
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threebadfish
Sep 22, 2009, 10:36 PM
Post #179 of 231
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What a rollercoaster of a thread...
I am in pretty good shape and have lifted weights almost my entire life, but I quickly learned that being light, flexible, and strong in the fingers have been more beneficial than how big my chest was.
If you insist on doing resistance training, stick with body-weight exercises. You can increase strength without increasing bulk. You may not see a performance increase on the rock but you will feel better about yourself and as long as you aren't putting on pounds, you shouldn't be able to hurt performance.
I think too all of this is at least partially dependent on the individual and how each person responds differently to different training. What improves some people's performance may hurt another person. For me pull-ups and dips have been beneficial on pumpy stuff but still not even a fraction as beneficial as being out there climbing.
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zeke_sf
Sep 22, 2009, 10:50 PM
Post #180 of 231
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Oh, crap, you just mentioned pullups as beneficial to climbing. Do you want to give JT512 an aneurysm?
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kyleshea
Sep 22, 2009, 11:21 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: Oh, crap, you just mentioned pullups as beneficial to climbing. Do you want to give JT512 an aneurysm?
if you focus on isolating your chest muscles while doing pullups you get evened out muscles and you climb harder too i did it for a month and now i can climb v5 in the gym, but only on the flat wall not the expert wall that is upside down and stuff
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ClimbClimb
Sep 22, 2009, 11:46 PM
Post #183 of 231
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jt512 wrote: You have to understand that to a weight lifterclimber, avoiding weight lifting is like a religion. If you question a weight lifter's trad climbers cherished beliefs, they react emotionally. I have no idea how such a mind-numbingly boring activity idea that strength exercise is bad for you can become a religion, but then again, religion itself is mind numbing, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.
Fixed that to capture the debate in a single concise paragraph. ;-)
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zeke_sf
Sep 22, 2009, 11:49 PM
Post #184 of 231
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You guys are SO getting killfiled. Not by me though. This is funny shit.
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kyleshea
Sep 23, 2009, 12:03 AM
Post #185 of 231
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zeke_sf wrote: You guys are SO getting killfiled. Not by me though. This is funny shit.
i hope you dont mean me killfile sounds bad i was just trying to help the OP by letting him now he can do specific pullups to build muscles in his chest and help him climb really hard at the same time why would anybody have a problem with someone trying to help out
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reno
Sep 23, 2009, 12:45 AM
Post #186 of 231
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kyleshea wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Oh, crap, you just mentioned pullups as beneficial to climbing. Do you want to give JT512 an aneurysm? if you focus on isolating your chest muscles while doing pullups you get evened out muscles and you climb harder too i did it for a month and now i can climb v5 in the gym, but only on the flat wall not the expert wall that is upside down and stuff
Just in case.
FYI, pull ups don't work your chest as much as they do other muscles. I'll let you figure out which other muscles on your own.
A question, though: which are more beneficial, pull ups with palm towards you, or away?
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kyleshea
Sep 23, 2009, 1:21 AM
Post #187 of 231
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reno wrote: kyleshea wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Oh, crap, you just mentioned pullups as beneficial to climbing. Do you want to give JT512 an aneurysm? if you focus on isolating your chest muscles while doing pullups you get evened out muscles and you climb harder too i did it for a month and now i can climb v5 in the gym, but only on the flat wall not the expert wall that is upside down and stuff Just in case. FYI, pull ups don't work your chest as much as they do other muscles. I'll let you figure out which other muscles on your own. A question, though: which are more beneficial, pull ups with palm towards you, or away?
depends on how hairy they are.
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ClimbClimb
Sep 23, 2009, 2:05 AM
Post #188 of 231
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kyleshea wrote: reno wrote: A question, though: which are more beneficial, pull ups with palm towards you, or away? depends on how hairy they are.
LOL 
P.S. Pullups with palm towards you are not pullups, they're chinups.
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andersjr
Sep 23, 2009, 11:02 AM
Post #189 of 231
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reno wrote: kyleshea wrote: zeke_sf wrote: Oh, crap, you just mentioned pullups as beneficial to climbing. Do you want to give JT512 an aneurysm? if you focus on isolating your chest muscles while doing pullups you get evened out muscles and you climb harder too i did it for a month and now i can climb v5 in the gym, but only on the flat wall not the expert wall that is upside down and stuff Just in case. FYI, pull ups don't work your chest as much as they do other muscles. I'll let you figure out which other muscles on your own. A question, though: which are more beneficial, pull ups with palm towards you, or away?
pull-ups with a close grip (hands close together) will give the pecs more of a work out than a regular pull-up (i assume that is what kyleshea was talking about).
as your grip widens, the pull-up begins to work your lats more.
palms towards you works the bicep. palms away works the lats. how many times have you been climbing and needed to pull on a hold with your hand facing you?
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serpico
Sep 23, 2009, 12:16 PM
Post #190 of 231
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In reply to: how many times have you been climbing and needed to pull on a hold with your hand facing you?
Every time I've ever used an undercut.
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jt512
Sep 23, 2009, 12:23 PM
Post #191 of 231
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serpico wrote: In reply to: how many times have you been climbing and needed to pull on a hold with your hand facing you? Every time I've ever used an undercut.
The context for this question was the usefulness of chin-ups. Isn't pulling on an undercut usually done at chest level or lower?
Jay
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serpico
Sep 23, 2009, 12:31 PM
Post #192 of 231
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jt512 wrote: serpico wrote: In reply to: how many times have you been climbing and needed to pull on a hold with your hand facing you? Every time I've ever used an undercut. The context for this question was the usefulness of chin-ups. Isn't pulling on an undercut usually done at chest level or lower? Jay
The distribution of undercuts in the real world (not gyms) is pretty random, but the really nasty ones come at you above head height: crux of Zoolook, Power Ranger, The Oak, etc...
That's partly what supplemental strength training is about for me; being strong for those moves that you encounter infrequently, although with crags like Malham high undercuts are not that infrequent.
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jt512
Sep 23, 2009, 12:45 PM
Post #193 of 231
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serpico wrote: That's partly what supplemental strength training is about for me; being strong for those moves that you encounter infrequently....
That actually makes sense.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 23, 2009, 12:47 PM)
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csproul
Sep 23, 2009, 1:23 PM
Post #194 of 231
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jt512 wrote: serpico wrote: That's partly what supplemental strength training is about for me; being strong for those moves that you encounter infrequently.... That actually makes sense. Jay
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andersjr
Sep 23, 2009, 3:22 PM
Post #195 of 231
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serpico wrote: jt512 wrote: serpico wrote: In reply to: how many times have you been climbing and needed to pull on a hold with your hand facing you? Every time I've ever used an undercut. The context for this question was the usefulness of chin-ups. Isn't pulling on an undercut usually done at chest level or lower? Jay The distribution of undercuts in the real world (not gyms) is pretty random, but the really nasty ones come at you above head height: crux of Zoolook, Power Ranger, The Oak, etc... That's partly what supplemental strength training is about for me; being strong for those moves that you encounter infrequently, although with crags like Malham high undercuts are not that infrequent.
Underclings. Didn't even think about that.
I know this thread was built on evening out the body & building bulk. I am interested in the communities thoughts about weight training to lose weight and for injury prevention? How about doing light shoulder work to limit rotator cuff injuries?
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serpico
Sep 23, 2009, 3:28 PM
Post #196 of 231
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csproul wrote: jt512 wrote: serpico wrote: That's partly what supplemental strength training is about for me; being strong for those moves that you encounter infrequently.... That actually makes sense. Jay Of course it makes sense, it came from someone with a 5.13 profile!
I know a lot of people who climb 5.13 and above and some of us speak sense and some speak utter bollocks, the one thing we have in common is that we got to that grade by doing lots and lots of climbing outdoors. It's no coincidence that my entry into this grade came within a year or two of going from full time employment to self employment where I worked little and climbed much.
The supplemental strength training I do is always done after I've been to the crag. For someone working full time this realistically only leaves one evening at the weekend to add in some extra training - provided you don't live too far from the crag. During the week if you've got the time to go to the gym you've got time to go to the climbing wall where you're guaranteed better results.
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jt512
Sep 23, 2009, 5:28 PM
Post #197 of 231
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serpico wrote: csproul wrote: jt512 wrote: serpico wrote: That's partly what supplemental strength training is about for me; being strong for those moves that you encounter infrequently.... That actually makes sense. Jay Of course it makes sense, it came from someone with a 5.13 profile! I know a lot of people who climb 5.13 and above and some of us speak sense and some speak utter bollocks, the one thing we have in common is that we got to that grade by doing lots and lots of climbing outdoors. It's no coincidence that my entry into this grade came within a year or two of going from full time employment to self employment where I worked little and climbed much. The supplemental strength training I do is always done after I've been to the crag. For someone working full time this realistically only leaves one evening at the weekend to add in some extra training - provided you don't live too far from the crag. During the week if you've got the time to go to the gym you've got time to go to the climbing wall where you're guaranteed better results.
So I take it that you weight train on climbing days after climbing, so that your weight training doesn't hinder your climbing and doesn't take place on what otherwise would be rest days. Is that correct?
Jay
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serpico
Sep 23, 2009, 6:08 PM
Post #198 of 231
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In reply to: So I take it that you weight train on climbing days after climbing, so that your weight training doesn't hinder your climbing and doesn't take place on what otherwise would be rest days. Is that correct?
I prefer to call it conditioning because weights are only a small part of it; in a single session I might mix system board with finger board, body weight exercises and weights.
The rest of your post is correct, as I posted earlier doing some strength after climbing takes the pressure off trashing myself at the crag and means I can concentrate on getting a load of quality movement .
...and obviously just enjoying time climbing - it's too easy to forget what you're actually training for.
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jt512
Sep 23, 2009, 6:52 PM
Post #199 of 231
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serpico wrote: In reply to: So I take it that you weight train on climbing days after climbing, so that your weight training doesn't hinder your climbing and doesn't take place on what otherwise would be rest days. Is that correct? I prefer to call it conditioning because weights are only a small part of it; in a single session I might mix system board with finger board, body weight exercises and weights. The rest of your post is correct, as I posted earlier doing some strength after climbing takes the pressure off trashing myself at the crag and means I can concentrate on getting a load of quality movement . ...and obviously just enjoying time climbing - it's too easy to forget what you're actually training for.
Can I ask how you structure your time at the crags? Are you doing a lot of onsights, quick redpoints, etc.?
Jay
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serpico
Sep 23, 2009, 7:26 PM
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In reply to: Can I ask how you structure your time at the crags? Are you doing a lot of onsights, quick redpoints, etc.?
I don't really structure my time as such; whatever crag we end up at tends to decide what I'm going to do for the day. My preference is for onsights and quick redpoints but unfortunately with the sparsity of sport near me there aren't a lot of routes left for me to onsight so I generally have to go abroad to do that these days. When I'm forced into less than quick redpoints (some would say sieges) I always try to combine them with some mileage on routes I've done previously; typically 3-4 7a-7b warm ups and a couple of warm downs. I try to get a solely mileage day in at least once a week.
If I'm not working (currently not working for 2 weeks) I'll climb 3 days on, 1 day off, 2 days on, 1 day off, training after climbing twice a week before the rest day. On my rest days I'll work core.
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effect-of-pullups.jpg
