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ldrmn
Sep 23, 2009, 8:06 PM
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Next month my local gym is having a sale on cams, which means I get to start building my first rack :)
Hopefully I can get a couple leads in before it snows.
After watching "The Sharp End", and toproping a route on MN's north shore I noticed that some Trad routes will have 1 piece of fixed gear about half way up the climb. The one I saw was a rusty piton. Which is suprising because of the strict ethics of all the climbs in the area.
Do most popular trad routes have a piece of fixed gear like that??
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hafilax
Sep 23, 2009, 8:13 PM
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ldrmn wrote: Next month my local gym is having a sale on cams, which means I get to start building my first rack :) Hopefully I can get a couple leads in before it snows. After watching "The Sharp End", and toproping a route on MN's north shore I noticed that some Trad routes will have 1 piece of fixed gear about half way up the climb. The one I saw was a rusty piton. Which is suprising because of the strict ethics of all the climbs in the area. Do most popular trad routes have a piece of fixed gear like that??
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Gmburns2000
Sep 23, 2009, 8:15 PM
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It depends.
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shockabuku
Sep 23, 2009, 8:23 PM
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ldrmn wrote: Next month my local gym is having a sale on cams, which means I get to start building my first rack :) Hopefully I can get a couple leads in before it snows. After watching "The Sharp End", and toproping a route on MN's north shore I noticed that some Trad routes will have 1 piece of fixed gear about half way up the climb. The one I saw was a rusty piton. Which is suprising because of the strict ethics of all the climbs in the area. Do most popular trad routes have a piece of fixed gear like that??
What did you mean by that?
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altelis
Sep 23, 2009, 8:25 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: It depends.
The OP asked if MOST popular trad routes have a piece of fixed gear roughly 1/2 way up the climb. Now, there is most certainly an answer to that question (either yes or no). You just don't happen to know what that is.
Now, I suppose what you could have meant is that it depends ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY POPULAR......
But then again, I suppose simply answering the OP's question yes or no doesn't REALLY give him an idea of what to actually expect out where he will be climbing....
Either way, I would be willing to put money on the fact that most popular trad routes do not have a piece of fixed gear en route (as opposed to a fixed anchor/rap station)....
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shoo
Sep 23, 2009, 8:29 PM
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ldrmn wrote: Next month my local gym is having a sale on cams, which means I get to start building my first rack :) Hopefully I can get a couple leads in before it snows. After watching "The Sharp End", and toproping a route on MN's north shore I noticed that some Trad routes will have 1 piece of fixed gear about half way up the climb. The one I saw was a rusty piton. Which is suprising because of the strict ethics of all the climbs in the area. Do most popular trad routes have a piece of fixed gear like that??
This will be highly area dependent. To generalize, many, if not most, trad-specific areas were originally aid nail-up areas done before modern trad protection existed. Trad climbing did not always mean clean climbing, though the two terms have become used together pretty closely nowadays. It used to be significantly more acceptable to use methods which had greater impact on the rock than modern clean trad standards. You'll come across many a rusty piton in the older, more popular "trad" climbing areas.
It is in no way generally acceptable to put a fixed piece halfway up climbs. If you saw more than one route like this, it's probably just coincidental or an area-specific thing. I can't speak specifically for MN, being a northeast climber myself, but in many "trad" areas, fixed gear has been added. This is generally HIGHLY controversial due to stylistic, ethical, and access concerns.
Some areas will have fixed protection as belay anchors. This too can be highly controversial.
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coolcat83
Sep 23, 2009, 8:30 PM
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ldrmn wrote: Next month my local gym is having a sale on cams, which means I get to start building my first rack :) Hopefully I can get a couple leads in before it snows. After watching "The Sharp End", and toproping a route on MN's north shore I noticed that some Trad routes will have 1 piece of fixed gear about half way up the climb. The one I saw was a rusty piton. Which is suprising because of the strict ethics of all the climbs in the area. Do most popular trad routes have a piece of fixed gear like that??
It depends, most don't, and if you are feeling like some fixed gear might give you some comfort, don't bet on it, it could and most likely will be crap.
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Gmburns2000
Sep 23, 2009, 8:31 PM
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altelis wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: It depends. Time for anal-retentivity. The OP asked if MOST popular trad routes have a piece of fixed gear roughly 1/2 way up the climb. Now, there is most certainly an answer to that question (either yes or no). You just don't happen to know what that is. Now, I suppose what you could have meant is that it depends ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY POPULAR...... But then again, I suppose simply answering the OP's question yes or no doesn't REALLY give him an idea of what to actually expect out where he will be climbing.... Either way, I would be willing to put money on the fact that most popular trad routes do not have a piece of fixed gear en route (as opposed to a fixed anchor/rap station)....
Actually, I meant it depends on whether or not there's a fixed piece on a popular route.
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dolphja
Sep 23, 2009, 8:32 PM
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you would see that on a section of a climb that didn't offer a good placement or may be too runout between placements.
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Gmburns2000
Sep 23, 2009, 8:38 PM
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shoo wrote: It is in no way generally acceptable to put a fixed piece halfway up climbs. If you saw more than one route like this, it's probably just coincidental or an area-specific thing. I can't speak specifically for MN, being a northeast climber myself, but in many "trad" areas, fixed gear has been added. This is generally HIGHLY controversial due to stylistic, ethical, and access concerns.
It kind of depends on the fixed piece doesn't it? If it's a bolt, then yeah, that could raise some eyebrows.
If it's a piton then it depends on the circumstances (did the others get pulled over time, was that the only place where the FA needed a fixed piece on that particular route, was the person who placed it there being disrespectful to the area).
If it's a fixed nut then I just can't see that being controversial except for maybe on the ride home where the leader turns to the second and says, "What do you mean you don't have 10 bucks to buy me a new nut?"
He doesn't specify what the fixed piece is, and I would think knowing that would go a long way toward determining just how controversial it really is (with area ethics, of course).
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shoo
Sep 23, 2009, 8:43 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: It kind of depends on the fixed piece doesn't it? If it's a bolt, then yeah, that could raise some eyebrows. If it's a piton then it depends on the circumstances (did the others get pulled over time, was that the only place where the FA needed a fixed piece on that particular route, was the person who placed it there being disrespectful to the area). If it's a fixed nut then I just can't see that being controversial except for maybe on the ride home where the leader turns to the second and says, "What do you mean you don't have 10 bucks to buy me a new nut?"
This is very true.
Gmburns2000 wrote: He doesn't specify what the fixed piece is, and I would think knowing that would go a long way toward determining just how controversial it really is (with area ethics, of course).
Errmmm. . .
ldrmn wrote: After watching "The Sharp End", and toproping a route on MN's north shore I noticed that some Trad routes will have 1 piece of fixed gear about half way up the climb. The one I saw was a rusty piton. Which is suprising because of the strict ethics of all the climbs in the area. |
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Gmburns2000
Sep 23, 2009, 8:45 PM
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shoo wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: It kind of depends on the fixed piece doesn't it? If it's a bolt, then yeah, that could raise some eyebrows. If it's a piton then it depends on the circumstances (did the others get pulled over time, was that the only place where the FA needed a fixed piece on that particular route, was the person who placed it there being disrespectful to the area). If it's a fixed nut then I just can't see that being controversial except for maybe on the ride home where the leader turns to the second and says, "What do you mean you don't have 10 bucks to buy me a new nut?" This is very true. Gmburns2000 wrote: He doesn't specify what the fixed piece is, and I would think knowing that would go a long way toward determining just how controversial it really is (with area ethics, of course). Errmmm. . . ldrmn wrote: After watching "The Sharp End", and toproping a route on MN's north shore I noticed that some Trad routes will have 1 piece of fixed gear about half way up the climb. The one I saw was a rusty piton. Which is suprising because of the strict ethics of all the climbs in the area.
Oops. 
Well, still, I stand by my other points above.
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cracklover
Sep 23, 2009, 9:33 PM
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Trad means the FA team led it from the ground up, placing gear as they went.
Clean means no hammer.
See how those aren't the same thing?
Then you must also factor in the historical aspect. As has been stated, some FFAs freed lines that had previously aided. And if the original aid route was *not* clean, the FFA could still be a clean ascent if no *additional* fixed gear was placed.
Make sense?
GO
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bennydh
Sep 23, 2009, 9:52 PM
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dolphja wrote: you would see that on a section of a climb that didn't offer a good placement or may be too runout between placements.
Depending where you climb, you may not want to get your hopes up for this.
Better to be surprised, maybe even relieved, than to find yourself in an Oh Shit! place far above gear, having expected a fixed piece. Topos, because they become dated, sometimes indicate fixed pieces that may no longer be there.
Use your head(not to land on), and be safe.
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ldrmn
Sep 24, 2009, 12:13 AM
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Right on.
Glad to hear that most dont have a fixed piece. That would defeat the purpose....
Well, thanks for the input, Im sure ill have more questions, so take it easy on the noob!
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rockandlice
Sep 24, 2009, 1:49 AM
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altelis wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: It depends. Time for anal-retentivity. The OP asked if MOST popular trad routes have a piece of fixed gear roughly 1/2 way up the climb. Now, there is most certainly an answer to that question (either yes or no). You just don't happen to know what that is. Now, I suppose what you could have meant is that it depends ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY POPULAR...... But then again, I suppose simply answering the OP's question yes or no doesn't REALLY give him an idea of what to actually expect out where he will be climbing.... Either way, I would be willing to put money on the fact that most popular trad routes do not have a piece of fixed gear en route (as opposed to a fixed anchor/rap station)....
It depends.
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rockandlice
Sep 24, 2009, 1:51 AM
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ldrmn wrote: Right on. Glad to hear that most dont have a fixed piece. That would defeat the purpose.... Well, thanks for the input, Im sure ill have more questions, so take it easy on the noob!
Properly located fixed gear on a 'trad' route does not defeat the purpose. It actually serves a distinct purpose of protecting an area of the climb that may otherwise have no gear and really nasty fall potential.
'Trad' does not mean that there are no bolts or fixed gear either.
(This post was edited by rockandlice on Sep 24, 2009, 1:53 AM)
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desertdude420
Sep 24, 2009, 2:51 AM
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ldrmn wrote: I noticed that some Trad routes will have 1 piece of fixed gear about half way up the climb. Do most popular trad routes have a piece of fixed gear like that?? 
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Hotpies
Sep 24, 2009, 3:45 AM
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The North Shore is a chalkless area. Shovel Point and Pallisade Head are pretty gorgeous cliffs that can be seen for miles and are part of the state park system and visited by many, many sightseers, so if climbers fuck them up, climbing there will be finished. Minimal impact is key.
The pins are all relics from before these changes came about. There's a few on shovel, and a couple of fixed pins on Pallisade head. I know lots of guys who've clipped them on lead (better than nothing I suppose) but nobody who's actually fallen on them.
Personally, I'd just as soon toprope most of that stuff. It's just faster and easier.
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shockabuku
Sep 24, 2009, 1:16 PM
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Hotpies wrote: ...The pins are all relics...
I assumed that. I wondered why the OP would think they wouldn't be there.
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olderic
Sep 24, 2009, 2:31 PM
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cracklover wrote: Then you must also factor in the historical aspect. As has been stated, some FFAs freed lines that had previously aided. And if the original aid route was *not* clean, the FFA could still be a clean ascent if no *additional* fixed gear was placed. GO
I'm going to disaggree with is slightly - even though it is splitting hairs. Back in the day - the day being the mid 70's and the place being the Gunks (where there were lots of fixed pins - I would guess roughly twice as many as today - making it a very new leader friendly sort of place) and nuts - mainly Choiunard hexes and stoppers - had just come out, a big deal was made of doing the first FCA - first clean ascent - and one of the rules was using no fixed gear. Now at roughly the same time there was a push to doing first hammerless ascents - especially in the Valley - and the tactics for doing that typically involved hand placing pins in scars AND using fixed gear. So hammerless then was less strict then clean and clean implied NO fixed gear.
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cracklover
Sep 24, 2009, 3:17 PM
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olderic wrote: cracklover wrote: Then you must also factor in the historical aspect. As has been stated, some FFAs freed lines that had previously aided. And if the original aid route was *not* clean, the FFA could still be a clean ascent if no *additional* fixed gear was placed. GO I'm going to disaggree with is slightly - even though it is splitting hairs. Back in the day - the day being the mid 70's and the place being the Gunks (where there were lots of fixed pins - I would guess roughly twice as many as today - making it a very new leader friendly sort of place) and nuts - mainly Choiunard hexes and stoppers - had just come out, a big deal was made of doing the first FCA - first clean ascent - and one of the rules was using no fixed gear. Now at roughly the same time there was a push to doing first hammerless ascents - especially in the Valley - and the tactics for doing that typically involved hand placing pins in scars AND using fixed gear. So hammerless then was less strict then clean and clean implied NO fixed gear.
Interesting! The mid 70s was a unique time in climbing, after the security of pins had been left behind, but cams had not come along yet. In places without a lot of fixed (soft iron) pins to clip into, y'all must have had real cahones. I'd imagine that never since hemp ropes was being a leader so insecure.
GO
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olderic
Sep 24, 2009, 3:27 PM
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cracklover wrote: [Interesting! The mid 70s was a unique time in climbing, after the security of pins had been left behind, but cams had not come along yet. In places without a lot of fixed (soft iron) pins to clip into, y'all must have had real cahones. I'd imagine that never since hemp ropes was being a leader so insecure. GO
Actually at the Gunks a lot of the fixed pins were cro-molly (hard steel) - thanks to John Stannard and crew maintaining things. But even the soft iron relics from the earlier era were often good. The thing that always killed me was opposing hexes in a horizontal - that took work. My arguably strongest year at the Gunks was probably 1977 when I did a lot of 10's at the Mac Wall, Repentence, Nose Dove, Matinee, Never Never Land and so on. I think they all had fixed pins - in good shape - at the cruxes. Not quite sport climbing but it still helped me progress.
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dudemanbu
Sep 24, 2009, 3:41 PM
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Also, if a bolt is hand drilled on the lead, it's still trad. The Bachar Yaerian i think is a good example.
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