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atg200


Oct 11, 2002, 2:34 PM
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i've whipped onto a camhook and a hook. pretty damn glad they both had full strength runners. no sense sabotaging your own gear.

fish will also throw a few bartacks in whatever you need. go russ.


mshore


Nov 6, 2002, 11:17 AM
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yeah - hooks are used for pro - atleast I use them. recently did a route and left a bathook in a drilled hole with a runner on it and I took a leader fall 3 feet or so off a #1 brassie that blew and onto a leeper hook that did not move - all within 20 feet. It was totally safe.

as for webbing - I use single length runner material and tie the overhand knot. The tape is way more suspect to dirt, break down, sunlight and I did not have to buy tape since most slings i retire have good sections of webbing to use.

[ This Message was edited by: mshore on 2002-11-06 11:20 ]


passthepitonspete


Dec 19, 2002, 1:14 PM
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Mountainmonkey wrote,

Quote:"Maybe there is a doctor in the house to clear this up? There is always a better way."

Clearly Casey "gets it".

[Dr. Piton glances up from his cup of coffee, bleary-eyed, and wonders how he missed this post. Ah-ha, he realizes, he was actually up here on the wall when the question was first posed...]


[Like]me, eh?]


When it comes to slinging hooks, there is most emphatically a Better Way. I cannot believe how wrongly many climbers sling their hooks! [Well, I reckon I can, because I used to do it, too] Perhaps this is because I have yet to see anything drawn or published that tells you everything you need to know. Sure, you get little snippets here and there, but if you're going to do it, you might as well do it right, eh?

So things are about to change for the better.
Depending on your outlook, hooking can be the most terrifying thing or the most fun thing you do while aid climbing! Having your hooks slung correctly is the first step in converting your fear to enjoyment.




DR. PITON'S BIG WALL TIPS

HOW TO SLING YOUR HOOKS

It's that time of year again, time when fair-weather aid climbers like me huddle up in front of the fireplace with a loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and something to fondle.

And what could possibly be more fun to fondle than your gear?! Especially hooks! What a merry jingle they make when fondled! Heck, you can even use them on your Christmas tree to hang up ornaments! Dr. Piton would love to see such a photo inserted into this post. [HINT]

When it comes to slinging your hooks, there are a few things you should keep in mind. These are the most common mistakes I see, and something you can fix very easily.


STUFF YOU NEED for this exercise is as follows:
Pair of scissors or knife [to cut off all your old slings that you have certainly slung incorrectly]
Marlin spike, in case you are a cheap bastard, and merely want to untie your wrongly-tied slings

Plenty of 9/16" webbing in two or three different colours

Big Wall Lighter so you can burn the slings when done

Duct tape for sealing the knot



SLING 'EM UN-SLIPPERY!

Dumb word, eh? I couldn't think of a better one. What I mean is, do not use spectra, kevlar, or any "slippery" type of nylon when you sling your hooks! Knots in this kind of stuff will not hold, and you will be in for a nasty shock when you see the knots in your sling coming undone before your very eyes, predictably in the worst possible situation.

The sole exception to this rule would be if you are sewing your slings onto your hooks.



SLING 'EM FOR REDUNDANCY!

If you are going to venture onto the big wall, you need to rack for redundancy. Simply put, this means not putting all of the same thing onto a single crab. This is because if you happen to drop that carabiner, you are basically buggered.

Nowhere is this more important than with your hooks! Your hooks are critical to your success.

When I made my solo ascent of Zed-Em, I was watching a Japanese soloist attempting Sea of Dreams. [It took him hours to make that desperate move onto the Continental Shelf - heh heh!] Anyway, buddy cruises the Hook or Book Pitch, one of El Cap's first "if you fall you die" pitches, and then a day or two later, I see him bailing! I couldn't figure out why as he had been doing well.

A week or so later I caught up with him, after recognizing his blue helmet. He told me he bailed because he dropped both of his Cliffhanger [regular Chouinard skyhook] hooks, and didn't want to continue for fear of needing such a critical piece.

I told him I knew precisely how he felt! You can click here to read where I - Dr. Piton - dropped all of our hooks. Sheesh.

If you are unfamiliar with the concept of racking for redundancy, then please click here to Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack. This is a Dr. Piton SIGNATURE POST, meaning you should know it backwards, forwards and sideways.

Fortunately, there is no gear easier to rack for redundancy than your hooks!

All you need to do is to tie each set of hooks with the same colour of sling. Then you can [at] put one full set on a single carabiner, without ever having to worry about accidentally having two of the same hook in the same place.

Clever, eh?

If you are climbing with a partner, then you might be able to get away with only two sets of hooks. But if you are climbing in a team of one, then you had best have three sets - at least in the critical Grappling and Cliffhanger [Sky] pieces - with each set tied in its own colour.



SLING 'Em RIGHT!

You must sling your hooks in the correct orientation - sling them from the outside in. This way, when you weight your hook, the sling is pulling the hook inwards and towards the rock, rather than outwards and away from the rock.
This is essential, and offers the side benefit of allowing you to keep an eye on your knots.

You will have to push through a loop of sling from the outside in, and tie the free ends of the tape in a water knot. You want the knot tied such that the free ends of the tape both come out in the same direction, which is unlike the way you would tie a tie-off. This is the only way you can tie your knot to make the loop short enough, as described below.



SLING 'EM SHORT!

The single most important thing you can do to sling your hooks is to use a short sling!

The longer your sling, the farther out of reach your next placement is. There is no benefit whatsoever to a long sling on a hook! Typically, when I tie slings on my hooks, I snug up the water knot so that the loop is less than an inch long. This way, when you weight the hook, the sling ends up at its correct length, which is a little over an inch.

What you want is for your lead carabiner to be very close, but not actually touching, the base of the hook. Make sure there is enough slack in the hook to provide the necessary degree of freedom, but without allowing yourself to hang too low.



SLING 'EM THICK!

You should sling your hook with the thickest webbing you can force through the hole. Typically this is 9/16" webbing. One of my hooks made by Russ Walling, either the Fish or the Captain, has too small of a hole, and I had to use 1/2". This kind of sucks as I use this hook regularly for protection on hard aid.

Half-inch webbing is too rinky dink for your hooks! It abrades too easily! Don't use it! If you have half-inch webbing on your hooks, cut it off.



SLING 'EM TIGHT!

When I was climbing Reticent Wall, which is a PDH route on El Cap, I remember having to stop in the middle of a pitch, and while hanging on one hook, use my teeth to tighten the sling on another hook whose knot was coming undone!

Talk about scary! Sheesh.

You must really tighten up those knots! The best thing to do is to grab your aiders, hang your hook off of your doorjamb [you know, the same one on which you used to do your fingertip pullups when you were stupid enough to train for free climbing?] clip in your aider and gently bounce-tighten your hook slings.

Really cinch that knot down! I recommend leaving about a one-inch tail in the ends of the sling.

Next you should take some duct tape, and tightly wrap the tails together to prevent the knot from ever coming undone.

If you do not secure your knots thusly, they will come undone. This is not Big Wall Theory - this is Big Wall Fact.



SLING 'EM FREQUENTLY!

The slings on your hook rub directly on the rock. Consequently, they abrade quickly.

Check them after every wall, and replace as needed.





If you have followed these basic steps, then you have slung your hooks the Better Way.

Take a look - you can see in this photo how short my hook is slung, and you can also see the wrap of grey duct tape which secures the tails on the red sling to keep the knot from untying. It's a decent shot of my Russian aiders and my adjustable daisy.



Conspicuously absent, however, is my my adjustable fifi. Perhaps you are wondering why.

Since you have now tied your slings correctly, you might want to Ask Dr. Piton ... about the Better Way to climb on hooks.

This, in Dr. Piton parlance, is a [HINT].





I am Dr. Piton,

and I am so sick I actually enjoy climbing on hooks

(This post was edited by cliffhanger9 on Mar 26, 2013, 6:06 PM)


passthepitonspete


Dec 19, 2002, 1:38 PM
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OK, time to play Wall Doctor.

[Fer cryin' out loud, you hotties, keep your shirts on! I didn't mean it that way. Sheesh.]

Anyway, let's have a look at some pictures:



Spoken in Fat Bastard voice:

"That huke is frrrrickin' CRRRRRRAP!"



Here are the problems:
Sling should be 9/16", not half-inch

Sling is two-and-a-half times too long!

The tail is MUCH too short - an accident waiting to happen!

The tail should be secured with duct tape so it doesn't untie



Next, let's have a looks at punk's excellent photo:



While the photo is swell, it is for the most part Big Wall Theory at its finest.


I'll start with the correct stuff:

The Talon and the Fish Hook are tied correctly

The knots appear to be good and tight

The tails are nice and long



But here are the problems:
The slings should be tied much shorter - you are losing too much height

The slings should be 9/16" and not half-inch

The double-fisherman's knots get in the way too much, and make it impossible to tie the sling short enough. You do not need these "keeper knots" - since you really have to force the thicker sling through the hole in the hook, you're not likely to lose a hook by having it fall off the sling. Besides, your hooks are always clipped to something, anyway

That hook on the left - Leeper? Pika? - is about the same size as the Fish Hook and hence should be tied with a different-coloured sling to aid in racking for redundancy

In hooks of this size, I'll take the Fish jobbies since they're so bomber as pro - I would not recommend the type of hook you see at left

The tails should be secured with duct tape to prevent untying



I am Dr. Piton,

and I have hung from many a hook in my time


russwalling


Dec 19, 2002, 2:24 PM
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Pete writes:
>>SLING 'EM THICK!
You should sling your hook with the thickest webbing you can force through the hole. Typically this is 9/16" webbing. One of my hooks made by Russ Walling, either the Fish or the Captain, has too small of a hole, and I had to use 1/2". This kind of sucks as I use this hook regularly for protection on hard aid. BETTER WAY is to try harder. Hard to belive you of all people had a tough time cramming something huge into a little hole;) All our hooks are designed to use 9/16" webbing... and to really clarify, 9/16" SUPERTAPE, not just 9/16" webbing as described in this thread. The supertape is miles stronger than the 9/16" regular, which is commonly used as tie-off webbing.
Now... to get the SUPERTAPE through the hole (which has been the same size since day one) on the FISH Hook is to get a 16" piece of supertape webbing, tie an overhand with a nice long set of tails, fold the webbing to where you would clip in, stuff this into the FISH hook hole. Notice it is nowhere near going through, but..... a very small corner of the loop will poke through the hole.... grab this with a GOOD pair of pliers and use some leverage to pull the webbing through the hole. Be careful not to let the pliers slip and damage or fray the webbing. It will take some force, but any aspiring wall fool can get it done in about 25 seconds start to finish. Voila! NOw you are ready to take some giant whippers onto the ultra bomber FISH hook. Don't be shy... let 'er rip!
adios,
Russ


copperhead


Dec 19, 2002, 5:06 PM
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PTPP wrote:
Quote:Half-inch webbing is too rinky dink for your hooks! It abrades too easily! Don't use it! If you have half-inch webbing on your hooks, cut it off.

A while back, I took a full-length daisy fall (Doh!!) onto a Cliffhanger tied with ˝” webbing and it was bomber. I’m surprised that the hook didn’t bend open and the flake didn’t break. The Petzl version of the Cliffhanger is stronger, due to the ‘v-fold’ bend in the top of the arc of the hook. ˝” webbing works better for Leeper (pointed and flat) hooks and Cliffhangers because it is thinner. Two layers of 9/16” supertape is thicker than the amount of clearance provided by the feet of these hooks, meaning that the webbing is in contact with the rock rather than the feet. This increases abrasion on the webbing. When hooking on the tip of the hook (as opposed to a wrapper flake), the hook will be unstable and rock from side to side with any body movement… sometimes scary. Talons, as well as the larger hooks such as Grappling Hooks, Fish Hooks, and the larger Vermin hooks, have greater clearance and are best slung with 9/16” supertape for strength and durability.

My hooks are threaded as shown by punk’s pic of the Grappling Hook, except for Leeper hooks, which I thread as shown on the Fish Hook. A water-knot is less likely to slip than an overhand knot on a bight. ˝” tie-off webbing will slip through the holes in the hooks so tie an overhand “keeper knot” on a bight, just above the clip-in loop when slinging, like the above mentioned Fish Hook.

I rack hooks on a 5th gear loop tied to the back of my A5 gear sling; the loop is tied between the bottoms of the two shoulder pads/straps, and keeps the hooks separate from the rest of my gear. I usually have two or three biners, each with ˝ to a full set of hooks, depending on the climbing. Color code each hook by size and type, instead of by set. This way you always know what color to look for, depending on which type of hook you need. If you see two of the same color in one set then you know that you have redundancies.

Ditto the rest of what The Dr. ordered.

Don’t drop stuff!

[ This Message was edited by: copperhead on 2002-12-19 22:21 ]


passthepitonspete


Dec 20, 2002, 2:51 PM
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Good comments on the slings, Bryan. Cheers, mate!

The main thing to remember is to watch for abrasion on your hooks' slings!

Interesting comments re. racking your hooks. Bryan's racking for redundancy is opposite to the way I do it. But what counts is to make sure you NEVER have two of the same thing on a single carabiner.

As for where to rack these tangly little buggers, you can click here to Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack. I rack mine on the front subrack of my modified big wall rack.

Cheers,

Pete

[Note: Both of the posts linked in the paragraph above are Dr. Piton SIGNATURE POSTS, and well worth reading if you are not yet familiar with them.]


grippedclimber


Feb 8, 2003, 8:18 AM
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I like to rack my hooks in a small bag. A chalk bag works well since it stays open and can be cinched shut. I clip the bag to my harness and the hooks to the bag, pig style. This keeps those tangly bastards from being so tangly. Since you don't unclip the bag, just the set of hooks you need, you don't drop the whole mess. (Of course the rest of the hooks are waiting to be tagged). Color coded slings are key cause you can't see which hooks you have without digging in the bag, which is really not that big a deal. I wouldn't use this if I was about to set out on a long hooking pitch, I would put my hooks at the ready on my front subracks. But, this works really well for pitches that start with hooking and then go to something else. This is also a great way to store the hooks on the tag rack.


diesel___smoke


Sep 2, 2003, 12:18 PM
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Hooks [In reply to]
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I learned something new... *goes to tape the tails of his hooks*
John-Paul


Mee0tch


Sep 24, 2009, 8:48 PM
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Re: [passthepitonspete] Slings for hooks [In reply to]
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Sorry to bring up an old thread, but can someone post some images of pete's description? Can't seem to find any of the pics mentioned in this thread.


billcoe_


Nov 6, 2009, 10:58 PM
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Re: [Mee0tch] Slings for hooks [In reply to]
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Mee0tch wrote:
Sorry to bring up an old thread, but can someone post some images of pete's description? Can't seem to find any of the pics mentioned in this thread.



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