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dingus
Sep 27, 2009, 12:46 PM
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What do you do? This happened to me yesterday on a beginners climb. Angus and I were climbing with my daughter Kaity for her very first multi-pitch climb ever. She's 12. At the base of the route we chatted with the 2nd of the party ahead. That person was clearly nervous. The leader chose to go a way that included a few more difficult moves than might have been necessary and the 2nd could not manage some slabby mantle move. Standing, fear, knee knocking, 'can't do its', voice quavering and finally tears and outright panic. The leader was oblivious as if often the case. I was on some face moves some 30 feet below this saga... they were up and off to the side on a route variant and in order to get there I'd have to pretty much run it out all the way, there was no intermetiate pro between us. What would you do? DMT
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dudemanbu
Sep 27, 2009, 12:55 PM
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Tell her to sack up and climb. she's on a top rope.
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dingus
Sep 27, 2009, 12:56 PM
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LOL! DMT
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coolcat83
Sep 27, 2009, 12:59 PM
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dingus wrote: What do you do? This happened to me yesterday on a beginners climb. Angus and I were climbing with my daughter Kaity for her very first multi-pitch climb ever. She's 12. At the base of the route we chatted with the 2nd of the party ahead. That person was clearly nervous. The leader chose to go a way that included a few more difficult moves than might have been necessary and the 2nd could not manage some slabby mantle move. Standing, fear, knee knocking, 'can't do its', voice quavering and finally tears and outright panic. The leader was oblivious as if often the case. I was on some face moves some 30 feet below this saga... they were up and off to the side on a route variant and in order to get there I'd have to pretty much run it out all the way, there was no intermetiate pro between us. What would you do? DMT First I wouldn't run it out and endanger myself, especially to get over to a 2nd who was probably in no danger if he/she falls. If you were close enough to talk I'd start by talking to the person, telling them they are on the rope and that it will hold them and that we've all been there and it's ok. I'd see if there was a way to get the leader's attention and maybe have them give the 2nd a really tight belay so they feel like they are not just going to plummet. It's pretty amazing what a little confidence and support will do sometimes. If really needed perhaps I'd get to the belay (if the routes share a belay, or if I can safely get to the other route's), see if I could talk to the leader then. Maybe the smart thing would be to have the leader to lower the 2nd down and bail my anchor, leaving them to work on the issue for another day.
(This post was edited by coolcat83 on Sep 27, 2009, 1:07 PM)
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sween345
Sep 27, 2009, 1:21 PM
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Tell her to sack up and climb. she's on a top rope. He didn't say it was a female.
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mheyman
Sep 27, 2009, 2:04 PM
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sween345 wrote: Tell her to sack up and climb. she's on a top rope. He didn't say it was a female. True, but this "Standing, fear, knee knocking, 'can't do its', voice quavering and finally tears and outright panic. The leader was oblivious as if often the case. " is a story where an oblivious male leader and new female 2nd is all to common. Is this not the case? What to do about doesn't change. Bring up your daughter and let her try to talk some calmness into them if your encouagemnt doesn't help? Assist from the anchor if you can't get to the 2nd safely?
(This post was edited by mheyman on Sep 27, 2009, 2:10 PM)
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lostlazy
Sep 27, 2009, 2:12 PM
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This persons toprope issues should have been worked out way before this happened. Orr perhaps, she had no confidence in the leaders belay anchor. Either way, to answer the question, i would lock off the belay, and have he/she hang a little bit to relax and catch their breath, give them a bit of a pep talk, if that don't work, start the procedure to lower them off and bail...go back to the TR wall edit: damn, missed the premise, i was talking in the view of the leader of the first party. If I was the leader of the second party, I would ask permission to climb passed them, I don't have all day for them to work out their communication or psychological issues...weekend is short, go back to the TR wall
(This post was edited by lostlazy on Sep 27, 2009, 2:18 PM)
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dingus
Sep 27, 2009, 2:38 PM
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Well at first I just stayed where I was, cause I was in the shade and the 2nd was in the sun. It was hot over there. Tried the talking thing from 30 feet away - nothing doing. I could have continued my lead, got to the belay ledge and been right above her but I didn't know that at the time. In all my days at this location this was only the 2nd time I'd done this route. Weird. She fell skidding a couple of times, slack belay, lost ground. She wouldn't weight her feet, leaning in against the rocks, all the basic errors. Yall know the drill. Once you get 'weak feet' you're toast in this game. She had weak feet really bad, refused to weight them. Dada. And as she started to flame out she panicked a bit. In my younger days I would have been a tad less empathetic. As it was her surge of panic made tears well up in my eyes. I really felt bad for her prediciment and knew I had to do sometime. Its a hard feeling I gotta tell you, to see a daughter of your own absolutely terrified of something you yourself love. And yet having felt similar feelings you know it all too well. Anyway, I couldn't climb up under her with that slack belay. If she fell and hit me I risked about a 40 slabby footer back into the corner, no good for an old man like me. Dada. So I stopped about 10 feet down and left and talked to her really quietly. Quiet enough she had to ask me 'what?' twice. She had to get a grip on herself just to hear me. It wasn't exactly 'the plan' but that bit worked out nicely... Anyway, she could not do the move. I could see it was beyond her belief to do it and to continue to try at this point would only make her worse. I hollered up to Mr Oblivion and told him to take hard, and to pull. At the same time I urged her to GO! Quietly, though. Go. She'd put her foot up. Start that pawing business, we all do it when we're scared. No! "Step on it and go, go now!" I almost whispered. She did. Then the next foot... dude stopped pulling what a moron. "I'm SLIPPING!" Her panic surged again. But this time somehow she found the will to readjust her foot, and she stood up on it. That last effort gave he the reach to get a good hold. 2 moves later she was on the ledge. PHEW! I started reversing my traverse with a hitch in my throat. About halfway back down she looks down toward me and said meekly, 'thank you.' I replied, (I had to catch myself a couple of times, weird, but I was near tears myself at that point)... "I didn't do anything." I was still talking very quietly to her, conversationally or even a bit lower. "You did that. Not me. I didn't do a thing there. You did it. You did. Believe in yourself." I told her that 2 or 3 more times, to believe in herself. "You climbed out of that, not me. Hold on to that. Believe in yourself." We didn't talk again. Higher up she came to another crux I already knew she couldn't do. I was curious as to what would happen. As soon as she got into the crux she demanded in a clear voice for her belayer to take her and give a pull. She topped out and they were gone. DMT
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el_layclimber
Sep 27, 2009, 3:06 PM
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Her leader needed a serious talking to, and speaking to him yourself would have come across as rude and likely been ignored. I think that getting her to be more assertive was good. I have on occasion (when on the ground) moved to where I was in eyesight of a belayer to communicate with them about their second, but that doesn't sound possible here. I am assuming that Mr. Confidence thought he was going to get some nookie out of this. Nothing fixes a situation like his second getting loud enough that he could hear his chances diminishing. I think that getting to yell at the belayer probably also made her feel better too. It's always hard to tell the difference between a spell of being gripped and genuine get that person off the rock bona-fide terror.
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camhead
Sep 27, 2009, 3:17 PM
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Well, if I saw that happen, I would just climb up to the panicking person, tie him/her into my harness, and then cut their rope! It worked at the Gunks. Seriously, the idea of letting the panicking follower rest on the rope, to gain confidence in the system before doing the moves, is probably a very good idea. The trouble, obviously, with multipitch as opposed to off-the-ground toproping is that there is usually much less communication between climbers, and if the follower weights the rope, often long swings or stretches happen, putting them off the route. I had a similar situation happen a couple years ago, though panic wasn't really involved. I was belaying my follower up a Moab-area tower that had a pretty wide section right off the belay at pitch 2. I was 140 feet up, and set back in an alcove for the belay, and there were high winds and traffic noise, so there was communication between us. My partner fell a couple times, and given the length of rope that was out, she was probably falling 15 feet every time she blew the OW moves. All I knew at the time was that the rope was not moving, and I just kept locking off inch by inch (fortunately had a gri gri) for well over an hour. Finally, from my end, it appeared that she had gotten the move and was climbing quickly up the rest of the pitch, since the rope started moving freely. Imagine my surprise as I pulled in an untied end of the rope! Turns out that my partner, in frustration, had made herself a three piece anchor and just untied, since that seemed the only option given the lack of communication. I suppose that she could have used the same gear to just aid past the tough spot, but she obviously was not psyched on the climb by that point. I wound up having to make a single rope rap down to bail, and had to aid solo back up the next day to get my rope and gear. ugh.
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milesenoell
Sep 27, 2009, 5:27 PM
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People here are getting too serious if we have made it this far and nobody has suggested either offering intoxicants or throwing things at them. If it had been family members of mine in your shoes it would have started with taunting and progressed from there. Not that those tactics have ever been successful mind you, but that is what they do. I probably would have tried to reach the belayer and convince them to bail or haul. PS-- While noble that you tried to leave the 2nd genderless, the scenario is one that few people would hear without assuming the 2nd to be female.
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fxgranite
Sep 27, 2009, 5:36 PM
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camhead wrote: Finally, from my end, it appeared that she had gotten the move and was climbing quickly up the rest of the pitch, since the rope started moving freely. Imagine my surprise as I pulled in an untied end of the rope! Turns out that my partner, in frustration, had made herself a three piece anchor and just untied, since that seemed the only option given the lack of communication. I suppose that she could have used the same gear to just aid past the tough spot, but she obviously was not psyched on the climb by that point. I wound up having to make a single rope rap down to bail, and had to aid solo back up the next day to get my rope and gear. ugh. Lol. Thats a new way for a second to tell the leader to go fuck themselves
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smallclimber
Sep 27, 2009, 5:47 PM
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You see a minor version of this almost every weekend in the Gunks, and I guess any easily accessible climbing area. Not quite so extreme, but macho male climber (often not all that good really, if he were good he would do a better mentoring job.....) and new non-climber girlfriend who ends up stuck and scared. While there is no reason for the genders not to be reversed you just don't see it so often (or even never??). Thoughts?
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vendelkrakker
Sep 27, 2009, 6:57 PM
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Actually a similar situation happened to me on Cathedral Peak just the other day. My partner and I got a late start, around 1 from the trail head and were climbing by 2:30 up the 5 pitch buttress, planning on descending as the sun set and hiking out in the dark. The first several pitches of this stellar route went smoothly. Then traffic jam developed at the bottleneck of the last couple pitches. The topmost party's second was panicking and wouldn't climb from fear, cold, and fatigue, while a 3rd party waited patiently behind them. When we caught up to them, the situation appeared not to be getting any better, so, with the others' permissions, I passed on a variation to the left of the panic stricken girl and set up a belay on top. For some reason, she then chose to follow behind me up a wide 5.8 variation, rather than stay in the easy 5.6 crack she was already on. This put her rope under mine where it became pinned once I took my second, and then she couldn't move. I gave my rope slack, unpinning her rope but she still wouldn't budge. At this point, I couldn't bring up my partner, and the other party's leader had to help the scared 2nd up the last 50 feet of the route to get her past my rope so my buddy could climb. We'd have made it down by dusk if not for the length of time taken up waiting for this party in trouble. As soon as it was dark the 4th and 3rd class descent became invisible and treacherous and we had to do several raps adding to our already rediculous car-to-car time. After summitting, all 6 of us decided to stay together to facilitate a safe descent in pitch dark (we all had headlamps except for one fellow from the 3rd party, whose lamp was in his pack at the base of the climb). While it was chilly for some, the weather was good and none of us were in any imminent danger, just horribly inconvenienced. When we finally made it to camp, it was past 11. Had the leader of the slow party been more thoughtful, he'd have taken one of several escapes down lower on the route (which is when the trouble apparently began). Unfortunately, he was not sympathetic to either his girlfriend's ordeal or to the plight of the other parties on the route; instead he kept saying things like, "Ugh! This is the longest day of my life!" (perhaps it is no matter, but this fellow is actually a park ranger back in the valley!). This experience was enlightening since it demonstrated the teamwork necessary not only within a party but between adjacent parties on a route. Leaders shouldn't drag inexperienced persons up a route when it may jeopardize others' safety and success on that route. Or if they do, they should at least have a backup plan in case retreat becomes the most polite and safest course of action to take with an inexperienced climber on a crowded route.
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rgold
Sep 27, 2009, 7:13 PM
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I've told this before, but I'm old so get to repeat myself. Thirty some years ago, on a rest day in Banff from some days in the Bugaboos, Joe Kelsey and I went off one afternoon to do a climb on a local crag (I really don't know what it was or where it is any more, but I think it is in or very near the town.) The route was, I think, three pitches, the middle one being mostly a 5.5 traverse under an overhang. At the top of the first pitch where the traverse begins, we encountered a totally panicked young woman, dressed in brand-new climbing clothes (knickers, patterned socks, the whole deal) and shod in brand new heavy mountaineering boots. We learned that she had engaged a guide for this, her first experience, and the genius took her on this climb with a long traverse above an undercut wall and just underneath an overhang, with a single piton perhaps half-way along protecting the second. At the end of the traverse, the guide had climbed up and disappeared above the overhang. He couldn't see anything, but could be heard exhorting her to just do it with encouraging words like, "you could ride a bicycle across there!" The young woman was looking at a twenty foot pendulum if she fell off the opening moves, after which she'd be hanging in space. This was in pre-harness days, when someone hanging in a waist tie-in who didn't know the inversion trick or know how to fashion a foot loop would suffocate withing twenty minutes or so. In other words, her "panic" was totally rational. We explained to her that she had, through no fault of her own, engaged an incompetent idiot. We tied her to our rope with an improvised seat harness, had her untie from the guide's worthless belay, and lowered her to the ground. We could hear her sobbing as she walked out through the woods. Probably the guide could too, although I don't think he knew we were there and so was perhaps mystified at how his client ended up in one piece (one quite miserable but also intact and healthy piece) back on the ground. We finished the climb, apprehensive about possibly being attacked by an irate guide, but he was nowhere to be seen, having soloed off after his client left the scene. This was at a time before there were more professional standards for guides. But we still see non-professional idiots all the time taking out beginners, and then doing long leads with belays out of sight and no communication possible. I figure this lack of consideration and empathy for someone in a stressful and possibly dangerous situation makes these people highly unsuitable candidates for even a decent friendship, much less something more. Dingus, it sounds to me like you absolutely did the right and decent thing, going beyond a bystander's duty to help someone in a mess.
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robdotcalm
Sep 27, 2009, 8:56 PM
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The OP brings to mind a question I have had for some time. What do you do if your partner completely panics? If any professional guide is reading here, I’d appreciate your chiming in since I assume this is something guides train for. A couple of years ago, I had a partner panic, and it was a real surprise. We had met at a gym and both gym climbed at about the same level (easy 10), maybe he a bit more strongly than I. He mentioned a number of one-pitch (that’s the important phrase) sport routes he had successfully climbed, and I have no reason, even now, to believe he was anything other than accurate. He wanted to learn more about traditional climbing and multi-pitch so we got on a 5.5 climb at Eldorado State Park in Boulder with my leading. As he was belaying me, and I was about to move left and over a short overhang and out-of-sight he began telling me how nervous it was making him that he couldn’t see me. I cut the pitch short (there was a rappel station about 10’ higher) so we could communicate better. It took some encouragement to get him to start climbing and to keep climbing. Eventually he could see me and that calmed him down somewhat. I decided at this point the best thing was for us to rappel off, and I suggested he could lead the 10’ of low fifth class to get to the bolts. No way. If he rappelled he would lose sight of me. He was very panicked. We finally decided I would lower him to the ledge on which we started, and we went over in detail how he would use the gear to anchor himself to the rock, while I pulled up the rope to set a rappel for myself. This went as planned. It took a lot more encouragement for him to climb down the fourth class approach to the climb. This left me wondering, What are the preferred courses of action, if a partner has a full blown panic attack? Anyway, here’s a curious incident that happened in Eldorado about 30 years ago. My partner and I were climbing the Bastille Crack (5 pitches, 8-). As I was belaying my partner on the second pitch, I looked down and could see a guy walking back and forth at the base of the climb looking at a guidebook and then up at the climb. As my partner got near to the belay, the guy started soloing the route. Nothing unusual here, as locals frequently solo the route. We decided to wait and let him pass us at the belay. He gets up to us and doesn’t say a word and traverses right to Outer Space (10c) and gets to the base of a 10a dihedral, the start of the hard stuff. Suddenly he starts screaming for help. Within a short time, some strong climbers had gotten to him but were unable to calm him down as he kept screaming and now was thrashing. They managed to tie a rope around him to keep him anchored to the rock. Soon some SAR types arrived and climbed up with a straight jacket. With 4 people there, they wrapped him up and then holding him still put on a full body harness and managed to lower him to the ground. I later found out he had a history of mental illness (no surprise). He was a good climber but had not climbed for 3 years and decided the way to get back into climbing was to solo a 10c. Thank goodness his self-preservation instincts got the better of his craziness. Gratias et valete bene! RobertusPunctumPacificus
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tradrenn
Sep 27, 2009, 9:36 PM
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I would do nothing. You know: to promote ones self responsibility for self/team.
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el_layclimber
Sep 27, 2009, 9:46 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: Anyway, here’s a curious incident that happened in Eldorado about 30 years ago.... Soon some SAR types arrived and climbed up with a straight jacket. With 4 people there, they wrapped him up and then holding him still put on a full body harness and managed to lower him to the ground. I later found out he had a history of mental illness (no surprise). He was a good climber but had not climbed for 3 years and decided the way to get back into climbing was to solo a 10c. Thank goodness his self-preservation instincts got the better of his craziness. Gratias et valete bene! RobertusPunctumPacificus I want the John Long fish-storied version of this.
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mheyman
Sep 28, 2009, 12:02 AM
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Sounds as if you not only did good, you did it as well as could have been done! Really, you tought her something and gave her the confidence to continue, even later when you just observed.
(This post was edited by mheyman on Sep 28, 2009, 3:52 AM)
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rockandlice
Sep 28, 2009, 1:59 AM
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Good stuff Milk Toast. Good on ya for saving someone from a truly shitty day and possibly fostering a new love and understanding for the sport.
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the_leech
Sep 28, 2009, 3:36 AM
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dingus wrote: Well at first I just stayed where I was, cause I was in the shade and the 2nd was in the sun. It was hot over there. Tried the talking thing from 30 feet away - nothing doing. I could have continued my lead, got to the belay ledge and been right above her but I didn't know that at the time. In all my days at this location this was only the 2nd time I'd done this route. Weird. She fell skidding a couple of times, slack belay, lost ground. She wouldn't weight her feet, leaning in against the rocks, all the basic errors. Yall know the drill. Once you get 'weak feet' you're toast in this game. She had weak feet really bad, refused to weight them. Dada. And as she started to flame out she panicked a bit. In my younger days I would have been a tad less empathetic. As it was her surge of panic made tears well up in my eyes. I really felt bad for her prediciment and knew I had to do sometime. Its a hard feeling I gotta tell you, to see a daughter of your own absolutely terrified of something you yourself love. And yet having felt similar feelings you know it all too well. Anyway, I couldn't climb up under her with that slack belay. If she fell and hit me I risked about a 40 slabby footer back into the corner, no good for an old man like me. Dada. So I stopped about 10 feet down and left and talked to her really quietly. Quiet enough she had to ask me 'what?' twice. She had to get a grip on herself just to hear me. It wasn't exactly 'the plan' but that bit worked out nicely... Anyway, she could not do the move. I could see it was beyond her belief to do it and to continue to try at this point would only make her worse. I hollered up to Mr Oblivion and told him to take hard, and to pull. At the same time I urged her to GO! Quietly, though. Go. She'd put her foot up. Start that pawing business, we all do it when we're scared. No! "Step on it and go, go now!" I almost whispered. She did. Then the next foot... dude stopped pulling what a moron. "I'm SLIPPING!" Her panic surged again. But this time somehow she found the will to readjust her foot, and she stood up on it. That last effort gave he the reach to get a good hold. 2 moves later she was on the ledge. PHEW! I started reversing my traverse with a hitch in my throat. About halfway back down she looks down toward me and said meekly, 'thank you.' I replied, (I had to catch myself a couple of times, weird, but I was near tears myself at that point)... "I didn't do anything." I was still talking very quietly to her, conversationally or even a bit lower. "You did that. Not me. I didn't do a thing there. You did it. You did. Believe in yourself." I told her that 2 or 3 more times, to believe in herself. "You climbed out of that, not me. Hold on to that. Believe in yourself." We didn't talk again. Higher up she came to another crux I already knew she couldn't do. I was curious as to what would happen. As soon as she got into the crux she demanded in a clear voice for her belayer to take her and give a pull. She topped out and they were gone. DMT Not descriptive enough. You forgot the most important part of the story. Was she HAWT?
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dingus
Sep 28, 2009, 4:14 AM
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Yes she was hot. DMT
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curt
Sep 28, 2009, 4:16 AM
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dingus wrote: Yes she was hot. DMT Ahhh, the plot thickens... Curt
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dan2see
Sep 28, 2009, 4:34 AM
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Sometimes we forget that climbing is recreation. Mind you it's serious, extreme sport, but it's still recreation. We do it for fun. But if you aren't having fun out there, then it's not fun anymore.
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blueeyedclimber
Sep 28, 2009, 1:01 PM
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Sounds like you did exactly what you should have done. The particulars of what you did are not as important here. Should anyone come into a situation like this (I have 2 or 3 times), the MOST important thing is the safety of you and your party. More so, if you have a child with you. She was on toprope, so there was NO urgency (you didn't mention an avalanche or lightning storm). So, you get to a safe place and if you can help in any way, then you do. I would be really curious if those people who say they would do nothing, actually do nothing if they are in a position to help. Josh
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