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yodadave
Oct 5, 2009, 3:00 AM
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So whats the smallest gear you'll bother placing on a free climb. I'm finding that i need to buy some smaller gear for NC trad routes but i don't know how small to go and it actually be worth putting in.
Oh and i'm asking with regards to nuts and cams.
my smallest gear right now is the largest DMM peanut and a .3 camalot
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coolcat83
Oct 5, 2009, 3:11 AM
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0 TCU, I've placed it often, have a friend who took a 20 footer onto one and it held, so i guess it was worth placing. I carry nuts down to #3 bd usually, they are light and have a chance of holding a small fall, or at least dampening one. That's about the smallest that I bother with placing, the others would probably be more of a risk to take the time to fiddle and place than their benefit unless it's the only pro on the route.
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climbingaggie03
Oct 5, 2009, 3:27 AM
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I carry down to #1 C3, i've never whipped on it, but used it for aiding and anchors enough to trust it.
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billcoe_
Oct 5, 2009, 3:30 AM
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Small RPs and micro brass nuts from @ #3 and up. The DMM brass offsets have good wires and free climbing #2 and up.
Since Malcom hasn't jumped in here I'll sell this as well.
"Trango BallNutz are thin crack protection at its finest. Using a sliding ball-and-ramp design, BallNutz protect parallel sided cracks, flares, and bombays. With size options that range from flake security to small cam replacements, they'll be an invaluable addition to your rack.
Features:
* Sized with a range from 3 to 16 millimeters, they are used regularly for parallel-sided cracks, pin scars, and flares
* Get unmatched expanding flake security from the 3 smallest sizes while size 4 and 5 provide a great rack replacement for tiny cams
* You'll have security from the 2 to 1 expansion ratio and rapid-fire function gets them placed in a flash
* Use it with a quickdraw for secure placements while free climbing
Specifications:
* Range (mm): 3 - 6 (1, blue); 4.5 - 9 (2, red); 6 - 12 (3, gold); 9 - 13 (4, green); 11 - 16 (5, purple)
* Weight (g): 29 (1, blue); 39 (2, red); 48 (3, gold); 61 (4, green); 71 (5, purple)
* Strength (kN): 4.5 (1, blue); 4.5 (2, red); 8 (3, gold); 8 (4, green); 8 (5, purple) "
Buy them here
http://www.mountaingear.com/.../902450/N/4294967230
and here:
http://www.backcountrygear.com/sale.cfm?code=ccc
You're welcome.
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Oct 6, 2009, 2:44 AM)
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moof
Oct 5, 2009, 3:39 AM
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Brass and Big Bro's, love to have them, hate to use them.
I've placed #2 HB offset brass, plenty of black aliens (including 3 lobe jobs) that I was damn happy to have under me, as the alternative was a massive runout. I've also taken along screamers in certain areas and certain routes where the rock is iffy, or where I know the crux is thin.
For example Deception Direct at the Leap is rated 5.9R, but you get a couple solid pieces of brass right before the crux, and an iffy alien (3 lobes of a black alien) just after the crux while still pulling 5.8 moves. I put a long runner on the black alien and keep my hand over, but not touching it, in case I slip. I'd rather get the A0 than fall on the piece, likely pulling it, and taking the 15' slab fall onto the brass below.
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el_layclimber
Oct 5, 2009, 3:58 AM
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Had a friend who went 60 feet onto a #3 BD nut, which was only rated to 2 or 3 kn. Had that pulled, he would have been dead. Ya never know...
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Durin
Oct 5, 2009, 4:08 AM
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"It depends" always seems to be the answer...
Really strong rock makes the piece's integrity the limiting factor, as well as the placement itself.
The smaller the fall factor, the less force on the piece -- a 10 foot fall 180 feet from the anchor won't put a crazy amount of force on the piece.
Granite is usually pretty strong, but it can be rotten. Haven't experienced any NC granite. Wingate sandstone is pretty weak universally.
I bring C4 .4(and up of course), and C3's 2, 1, 0, 00 (all but the smallest) for free climbing. Black aliens too, but I don't think there's an alien smaller than black.
I believe the two largest DMM peenuts are rated to the same strength -- I'd place both, though the larger one is probably easier to place well.
Something else to think about: once I made an anchor off of 4 C3's, including the 00. One by itself would have sucked, of course. But 4 of them, reasonably well equalized, was probably pretty decent. Didn't have to put more than bodyweight on it though.
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sungam
Oct 5, 2009, 9:27 AM
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Gry blue and purple Mastercams are pretty much the shit for small gear. The place well in NC granite, too.
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davidbr
Oct 5, 2009, 10:22 AM
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As long as it isn't exhausting to place the piece, any decent placement, no matter how small, is better than none. Even if it doesn't support a fall, it will absorb some of the shock before you hit your next piece, and,as long as it will support body-weight, should you get into trouble, you may be able to climb back to it and sit.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 5, 2009, 11:58 AM
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Sitting on crap gear can be deadly! Small gear depends entirely on the rock quality and placement quality.
Once fell on P38 at the gunks. Ripped a #3 Chiounard silver soldered micro wire, hooked the rope on my leg, went upside down and was caught by the #2 soldered wire that was in a perfect placement. It was a hard fall with not a lot of rope out and that little tiny piece of metal saved my life big time! I was left hanging upside down over rocky ground, no helmet, 2 feet off the deck. serious head, neck or both injury gaurenteed if that wire did not hold.
I have ripped several #3 stoppers over the years and the #0 purple TCU so it is obvious to me that the placements of the small stuff have to be perfect and in good rock..
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patto
Oct 5, 2009, 1:52 PM
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I have placed my green WC ZERO multiple times. It is the second smallest cam made. It still holds a beefy 4.5kN so it isn't going to break in a hurry. I've place small peenuts and RPs multiple times and have seen falls onto small RPs.
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lemon_boy
Oct 5, 2009, 2:05 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Sitting on crap gear can be deadly! Small gear depends entirely on the rock quality and placement quality. Once fell on P38 at the gunks. Ripped a #3 Chiounard silver soldered micro wire, hooked the rope on my leg, went upside down and was caught by the #2 soldered wire that was in a perfect placement. It was a hard fall with not a lot of rope out and that little tiny piece of metal saved my life big time! I was left hanging upside down over rocky ground, no helmet, 2 feet off the deck. serious head, neck or both injury gaurenteed if that wire did not hold. I have ripped several #3 stoppers over the years and the #0 purple TCU so it is obvious to me that the placements of the small stuff have to be perfect and in good rock..
on p38? i don't remember any particularly small gear on that route?
in response to the OP, learn to be extremely proficient at placing very small gear, and have a good selection of various small pieces. also, develop the guns to be able to hang in there and place the best gear that you can. this takes a lot of time and a lot of discipline to develop, but it is essential to breaking into harder grades at a lot of areas.
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shrug7
Oct 5, 2009, 2:24 PM
Post #13 of 103
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I second ballnutz, they are great thin crack pro. (Though I believe that this piece is body weight only rated)
I have a set of C3s that are standard on my rack, I don't carry the 000 though. I've fallen on the #0 with no problems.
The smallest piece i've placed was a #4 BD mirco. That was "fun".
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petsfed
Oct 5, 2009, 2:26 PM
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patto wrote: I have placed my green WC ZERO multiple times. It is the second smallest cam made. It still holds a beefy 4.5kN so it isn't going to break in a hurry. I've place small peenuts and RPs multiple times and have seen falls onto small RPs.
I just can't bring myself to climb above the gray zero, which is the next size up. Its rated to 6kn, but I just can't ever seem to get a good placement for it. Cams that small are just hard to place.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 5, 2009, 2:31 PM
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lemmon boy, I don't remember any large gear on tha rout  it is possible that i was on the wrong climb? It was a super thin seam up a super shallow left faceing corner? i only made it 15 or 20ft up the thing.... maby the gear gets bigger up higher?
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potreroed
Oct 5, 2009, 2:40 PM
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I've taken a hard 20 footer on a #2 rp and had a ball nut pull right out on a fall. Like others said, it all depends on the quality of the rock and the placement.
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davidbr
Oct 5, 2009, 2:43 PM
Post #17 of 103
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Tradman -
Who said anything about sitting on crap gear? The word i used was 'decent'. It's pretty tough to see how that can be interpreted as 'crap'.
There are plenty of placements which are safe enough to take body weight, but which a person wouldn't want to whip onto.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 5, 2009, 2:51 PM
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Its all good, just keep in mind that if you string a few of those body weight placements together and then sit on one of them that you may have plopped yourself into the middle of a C3 aid pitch and not have a clue... seen some interesting zippers in my time
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j_ung
Oct 5, 2009, 2:55 PM
Post #19 of 103
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Registered: Nov 21, 2003
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yodadave wrote: So whats the smallest gear you'll bother placing on a free climb. I'm finding that i need to buy some smaller gear for NC trad routes but i don't know how small to go and it actually be worth putting in. Oh and i'm asking with regards to nuts and cams. my smallest gear right now is the largest DMM peanut and a .3 camalot
NC climbing often consists of gear-protected face climbing, which is typically when the little stuff comes in handy. While a lot of those tiny pieces aren't officially strong enough to hold a hard fall alone, don't discount the value of placing them in concert with each other. I can't count the number of times I've built equalized mini life stations out of copper-steel nuts or placed a couple 0/00 TCUs right next to each other in a horizontal. If you're going to break into 5.9, 5.10 and above in NC (apologies if you already have) then yeah, go smaller. WAY smaller.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Oct 5, 2009, 2:57 PM)
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bandycoot
Oct 5, 2009, 2:55 PM
Post #20 of 103
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00 TCU
#1 HB offset
000 C3
#1 Ballnut
I've fallen on some tiny gear and it has essentially always held. I haven't had a large fall on the small stuff yet though...
Josh
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 5, 2009, 3:18 PM
Post #21 of 103
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Can't stress how important perfect placement is with micro gear! There is a 10C pitch in northern VT that has a spot where you have to commit to the buisness. It takes a perfect bottle neck #5 BD stopper. I have caught falls on that piece in that spot.. Last year a kid went for the #00 tcu instead of the #5 stopper. it ripped and he decked on the belay ledge 400ft off the deck. They self rescued but he was messed up for no reason other than blind dependance on cams. Yesterday there was a guy falling his way up a 5.6+ at my local crag. The landing is horrible, Big pointy boulder that you will hit if you rip even one piece of gear. Folks have gotten hurt here! I see the guy fish in a small can and i know that there are bomber bottleneck stopper placements up there.. just the kind of spot your cam can creep up in and umbrella.. i holler up at him to place stoppers and i get a dirty look... Oh well....
Just remember that you can get seriously fckin killed at this game
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wannabe
Oct 5, 2009, 3:21 PM
Post #22 of 103
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I reccomend the steel BD micros and a set of Astro nuts. Both of these in the free climb rating will take care of most of the small pro needs. I have Taken good whips on both the #3 BD and #6 Astronut. They are fantastic when placed well and compliment each other nicely.
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joshy8200
Oct 5, 2009, 3:30 PM
Post #23 of 103
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I've fallen twice on a 00 TCU (grey). Both times it was the first piece on the same route, within 15 feet of the deck. I'm guessing the placement is at about 12-15ft and I took 6-8ft falls on the piece.
So...pretty short fall, but pretty high fall factor. This was in very nice granite.
Shortly before taking fall, you can see the TCU at my waist. I climb up just a little bit past:
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 5, 2009, 3:50 PM
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Not sayin yoou shouldn't use micro cams just pointing out that wwith all small micro gear the placement has to be perfect for it to hold a real fall. Sometimes people get so cam happy they place a marginal cam in a spot that would have taken a perfect stopper.
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drytooler
Oct 5, 2009, 3:51 PM
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petsfed wrote: patto wrote: I have placed my green WC ZERO multiple times. It is the second smallest cam made. It still holds a beefy 4.5kN so it isn't going to break in a hurry. I've place small peenuts and RPs multiple times and have seen falls onto small RPs. I just can't bring myself to climb above the gray zero, which is the next size up. Its rated to 6kn, but I just can't ever seem to get a good placement for it. Cams that small are just hard to place.
Climb a bit in Chamonix en the small Wc gray blue yellow make all the difference off the world.
Just great those zero's(i don't bring the purple and green doh)
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