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ridgeline
Oct 2, 2009, 9:06 PM
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I've been climbing for a few years now, but can't seem to move to the next level/grade. I think I can identify a few reasons why like:
1) my partners climb the same grade as I do (i.e. I don't get to follow harder stuff much)
2) i could probably stand to get out more often
3) arms get pumped too quickly,
4) can't get past the mental/fear part of the game.
Clearly, i hope to find more experienced partners to follow up harder climbs more often (1 & 2). Also i have been more committed to a strength training routine to hopefully address #4.
To those who do climb "harder" ice (WI4 or more), any advice on how to move past this plateau? What's got you to the next level? I imagine most of the same advice one would receive in terms of climbing harder on rock applies but perhaps there are a few different factors which is why i ask.
Just looking for ideas or if I missed something on my list that I should focus on.
thanks
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adam3
Oct 2, 2009, 9:44 PM
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Franks red hot sauce.. I put that S*@% on everything!
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shimanilami
Oct 2, 2009, 10:00 PM
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So let me get this straight. You know you need to (1) find better climbers to hang out with, (2) climb more, (3) get more fit and (4) get your head straight, and you're asking what else you can do to improve?!
It sounds to me like you know what you need to do. Quit making excuses. Get out there and do it.
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smallclimber
Oct 2, 2009, 10:33 PM
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Do you have any areas you can set a top rope? This would allow all of you to attempt harder climbs, remove the need to find a new partner and solve the fear issue, at least while you were getting used to steeper longer route. Then place screws while climbing the steep routes on top rope, give yourself an idea of what that takes. So long as you are not hindering anyone else I've found TRing seems to be more acceptable ice climbing than on rock (Based on a very extensive survey of the two areas I've ever ice climbed....)
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ridgeline
Oct 3, 2009, 11:49 AM
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shimanilami wrote: So let me get this straight. You know you need to (1) find better climbers to hang out with, (2) climb more, (3) get more fit and (4) get your head straight, and you're asking what else you can do to improve?! It sounds to me like you know what you need to do. Quit making excuses. Get out there and do it.
Ha! True, nice for pointing it out.
The toprope suggestion is a really good one too.
I agree that everything I need to do is on the list.
The one I struggle with the most is improving the mental aspect. The others are easily correctable.
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dr_feelgood
Oct 3, 2009, 4:48 PM
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adam3 wrote: Franks red hot sauce.. I put that S*@% on everything!
Sig worthy.
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creemore
Oct 3, 2009, 7:19 PM
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Getting past the head games for climbing steep ice is tough. A few seasons ago, I had "Issues" on W5.
It's just plain scary sometimes!
Who are you climbing for ?
Why do you want steep ice for breakfast ?
Is everything good at home and allowing you to fully give yourself to it ?
Did you really train hard enough in the off season ?
Be honest with yourself then just give'r hell!!!
And reading a few Mark Twight stories (kiss or kill / Twitching with Twight...or just the whole book) should light a good fire under your ass !!!
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 3, 2009, 11:47 PM
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#1 get stronger. that means dry training now and lots of laps on 5+ TR in winter.
#2 DO NOT WASTE YOUR EFFIN BELAYERS TIME AND PATIENTS MOCK LEADING
#3 Ice boulder a lot. like every day after work. find a road cut at least 20ft tall and don't just traverswe, top out on the hardest lines. This is the place to practice your ice screw placements. Do it 3 ft off the deck on vert ice.
#4 Solo lots of grade 3 and that means longer routs. solo Chiounards, RBF etc, etc, etc.
#5 get your racking system totally wired so that grabbing a screw, placeing it and then grabbing screamer and clipping goes smother than cat shit on linolium.
#6, get super proficient at V threads. recognize that once you perfect the art of Bailing as long as the ice is thick enough and solid you can bail off any time you want. this helps keep the fear thing under control and lets you try harder climbs.
#7 call up Alden Pellet, Dave powwers or Guy Lachell Etc and beg them to drag you up Le Promenade on a super cold day... It will open your eyes to the world of steep ice
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julio412
Oct 4, 2009, 5:24 AM
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I've setup a indoor wall in my garage.Tethered a rope below the rafters; so if I pop I don't snap an ancle.
Use a daisy on my harness to connect and slide along the rope, clipping around anchor points.
Use old 'terrors for maximum pump.
Two pullup stations and a corner for situps.
Either Cassin froot boots or rock shoes.
Add some weights and gear on your harness helps.
Even drilled some holes for screws, blocks of hard wood setup for torquing.
Throw in a Moscow winter night , some tunes and you're good to go.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 4, 2009, 12:26 PM
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Mt tools hang from the rafters in the garage. Run out there, jump up, grab em and crank the pull ups. Does not seem to help swing strength though...
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Guran
Oct 5, 2009, 3:25 PM
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One thing about ice (esp with modern tools) is that your climbing level quickly races ahead of your protection level. (So to speak)
I can toprope WI routes that I'm nowhere near skilled enough to lead safely, since I'm simply not experienced enough to judge the quality of the ice and the integrity of the formations.
It does not matter how strong and precise you are with your tools if the whole route collapses under you. (With your carefully placed pro in to a multi-ton block of ice heading south)
So rush slowly, team up with good partners with some sense of judgement. Topy around with hard stuff on top rope and get a lot of mileage leading on safer ground. Don't forget to have fun.
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bandycoot
Oct 5, 2009, 4:44 PM
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Guran wrote: One thing about ice (esp with modern tools) is that your climbing level quickly races ahead of your protection level. (So to speak)
Haha, this is my experience. I went to Ouray for my first ice climbing trip this year. There's a cool hanging ice sheet that traverses up left next to a bridge that's WI4. I thought it would be cool as my first ice lead. I could do the climbing with relative ease, but the protection was non-existant since I don't know how to tell ice quality and it just "dinner plated" around the ice screws I put in. I pretty much soloed the upper half of the route through the crux. Yikes! I'll (hopefully) be much more careful next time....
(This post was edited by bandycoot on Oct 5, 2009, 4:45 PM)
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gunkiemike
Oct 8, 2009, 10:07 PM
Post #13 of 54
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ridgeline wrote: I've been climbing for a few years now, but can't seem to move to the next level/grade. I think I can identify a few reasons why like: 1) my partners climb the same grade as I do (i.e. I don't get to follow harder stuff much) 2) i could probably stand to get out more often 3) arms get pumped too quickly,
4) can't get past the mental/fear part of the game.
Well, it IS hard to be bold when your hands are opening and your arms are not doing what you're telling them to do.
So get busy on the training. To be totally frank, there's nothing surprising about plateauing at WI4 if you're only getting out a couple times a month.
You got any dead trees in the backyard?
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Guran
Oct 9, 2009, 7:43 AM
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Since you define "harder" as "WI4 and more", I might qualify as "hard ice climber" yay.
I'd say there is one single thing that made me comfortable(ish) leading WI4: Never hang from bent arms!
Of course there is no reason to suspect that your noob mistakes are the same as mine, but I used to spend way too much time with straight legs and bent arms, burning away those arm muscles in no time. Once I started to spot the next placement before straightening out (and even more importantly, placing pro at a comfortable waist level with a high axe, instead of trying to place that screw high with my tools at face height...) WI4 was solid.
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qwert
Oct 9, 2009, 9:36 AM
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I also seem to have problems with climbing harder ice, or even leading ice in general.
I can follow multipitch WI5 without many problems, but when it comes to leading 
I totally burn my arms and calves.
I guess i have to work on my technique more.
apart from that: do you think it would help to attach some weights to my wrist (and ankle) when climbing/ bouldering as training?
I get totally pumped from swinging tools. Im totally not used to it.
qwert
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 9, 2009, 11:35 AM
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If you can follow multi pitch WI5 but can't lead WI3 then it is a head thing. Start bouldering and doing higballs and easy solos. Leading ice is all about being able to climb in no fall situations.
Aagain i can not stress enough the importance of haveing a flawless racking system for fireing in screws on verticle terrain.
Plan ahead. break the climb down into short sections. Plan to place screws at stances. Minimize the placeing on harder terrain. Just haveing even one solid foot hold/stem makes placeing the screw 100 times easier than if you just place off the front points.
Ice climbing is all about route finding!!! Find the best way up. Often but not allways the path of least resistance. Look for the stemming, look for the better ice quality. Plan to hit that spot where you can stem and place screw with your strong hand.
Again. have your racking system WIRED! Use ultra large wire gates on the rope end of your screamers so you can clip with gloves under stress. tape the rope end biners so they don't flop arround.. Set those screamers up just like quickdraws. few things stupider than trying to get ahold of, oops its flopped upside dowwn, get it turned arround now and try to clip a fancy ultra light micro biner with wet frozen gloves and a bad pump half way up a 5+ pillar!
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qwert
Oct 9, 2009, 2:43 PM
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yeah, i do know that it is mostly a head thing.
apart from the clipping. I dont have any problems with that, but then i dont use screamers 
I am not shure how i would transfer that to ice, but on rock i can do runout routes without problems - even if they are at my limit - if i know that i can do them, eg. if ive done the route in toprope perfectly before.
however this does not work for multipitch.
So i guess i have to do my other approach: Get stronger, so that i dont have to worry about falling because i am to weak ...
qwert
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bandycoot
Oct 9, 2009, 8:27 PM
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qwert wrote: yeah, i do know that it is mostly a head thing. So i guess i have to do my other approach: Get stronger, so that i dont have to worry about falling because i am to weak ... qwert
If you don't train your brain, you'll always be afraid of falling because you're too weak. It won't matter how strong you get. So you can headpoint on rock. That's much easier than onsighting above gear IMO, and since there is no unknown it's not really applicable. Learn to onsight routes above gear. Learn to go for it. Climb with people with more aggressive attitudes. I find that climbing partners can make or break a climbing career. Do any of your climbing partners go for it? If not, find some that do.
Josh
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 9, 2009, 8:33 PM
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Which brings us back to. If you plan on leading grade 5 ice you need miles and one of the ways you need to get those miles is by soloing grade 3-3+ routs and short sections of grade 4
no partner today= no problem. lets go crank off a bunch of long easy climbs solo and maby a few short pillars for desert
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gargrantuan
Oct 10, 2009, 5:45 PM
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bolted mixed climbing and the rock warrior's way helped my ice leading a ton. you get redicu-strong M-climbing and the mental aspects covered in Ilgner's book really set me up for success. though, i would only consider myself a WI4 climber.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 10, 2009, 10:38 PM
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Just don't practice falling with the poons on
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ridgeline
Oct 11, 2009, 2:28 PM
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Some great feedback, thanks.
tradmanclimbs - you've suggested soloing a couple of times so you must feel it is important. Is this b/c of a) climbing mileage and b) getting your mind to feel more comfortable without pro?
Also, great point about dialing down the rack system. My only lead falls, on rock, i can trace back to a poor system.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 11, 2009, 2:52 PM
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#1 If you plan on leading grade 5 ice you must either be the strongest MF on the planet or you must be able to climb a reasonable distance over your gear. 60m Pitch @ lake willoughby X 1 screw every 3 meters = 20 screws then add 4 to 6 more for back to back screw belays and you should be able to get the picture.
Soloing long moderate pitches is the best way to get comfortable climbing in no fall situations as well as making it easy to run out moderate sections of a big climb safely.
Additionaly You don't allways have a partner but you need serious miles to be a solid grade 5 leader. You could wank off on the internet because you don't have a partner or you could solo all the gullys in the ravine that day
On hard ice it is a good idea to break the climb down into sections instead of looking at it all in one piece. From your stance where you have placed a screw it is crucial to look ahead and plan where you will climb to next and place that next screw. If you are used to soloing short steep sections of grade 4 ice then you can look ahead and tell yourself that the pillar in front of you is no harder than that thing you soloed yesterday. Now you can crank it with ease..
#2 I literaly don't know any grade 5 leaders who don't solo at least grade 3 ice....
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Oct 11, 2009, 2:55 PM)
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brent_e
Oct 11, 2009, 6:05 PM
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I'm still breaking the grade 5 barrier. The trouble I always have is that I stop and hang out for too long instead of just GOING. It's been pretty much a mental thing that leads to me pumping out when I could have finished the climb.
I'm going to try rollies and see if that helps.
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rockprodigy
Oct 14, 2009, 4:45 PM
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About a decade a go there was an ice climbing film starring Alex Lowe, and he had some great advice. His first nugget was that you should accept a long apprenticeship in ice climbing...I kinda skipped that part, but I did do a lot of research (such as finding and watching that video). The second, is when you are leading, you need to believe 100% in every tool placement you make. The instant you move up on a placement that you are not confident in, the whole climb falls apart. If you're hanging on a crappy placement, you will rush the next placement, and it will be crappy, and then you'll be scared to stop and place gear, so on.... Make each placement bomber, and only move up when it is, then you'll be confident placing gear and able to relax.
Soloing can help you learn to trust your tools, but I don't think it's a requirement. I used to do it more when I was "young, dumb and full of XXX", but now I have more to live for. One can make the argument that leading ain't much safer than soloing, but I say, stack the odds in your favor.
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