|
p8ntballsk8r
Oct 12, 2009, 5:59 AM
Post #1 of 24
(12250 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 12, 2009
Posts: 81
|
Would tying an alpine butterfly underneath an ATC be safe to take off ones break hand in both rappelling and belaying someone?
I figure it would, since if tied correctly there is no way the knot will pass through the ATC and it will act as a break. It also is a big enough not that when it bears a load it won't shrink or have a possibility of passing through.
My one concern would be the knot tightening too much when a load is put on it, and the difficulty of untieing it afterwards.
Let me know what you think - Would you be comfortable with your partner/belayer tying this to take his/her hands off the rope.
|
|
|
|
|
patto
Oct 12, 2009, 7:21 AM
Post #2 of 24
(12237 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
An overhand is fine, plus it is easy to untie!
|
|
|
|
|
cilohabmilc
Oct 12, 2009, 7:58 AM
Post #3 of 24
(12226 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 36
|
While tying a knot below your ATC will stop a fall by jamming itself in the device, it will get messy when you need to remove the knot.
My preferred method is a mule knot. This illustration isn't exactly how I learned it, but it should work none the less. 
This way you are securing the rope in the break position instead of jamming a knot into your belay device.
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Oct 12, 2009, 11:55 AM
Post #4 of 24
(12184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
|
Is this the butterfly knot that you mean?
http://en.wikipedia.org/...lpine_butterfly_knot
I guess it is okay so long as something is clipped through the loop. In a fat single rope, it otherwise seems too loose to trust.
As mentioned by cilohabmilc, mule knot is good for either situation ... probably mandatory if the knot might need to be released while loaded. But my usual for tieing off the belay is a figure eight on a bite pulled tight into a hard knot (i.e., don't leave it loose).
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Oct 12, 2009, 12:35 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Oct 12, 2009, 1:01 PM
Post #5 of 24
(12155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
Learn the mule knot, and practice it till you can do it with out even looking. I imagine that purposefully tying a knot to get stuck in your belay device would be a bad idea and almost impossible to undue without prusiks.
|
|
|
|
|
MS1
Oct 12, 2009, 2:20 PM
Post #6 of 24
(12118 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 24, 2009
Posts: 560
|
Another vote for the mule knot backed up with a half-hitch.
First of all, a butterfly is quite hard to tie one-handed. The mule is comparatively fast and easy.
Second, once it jams into your belay device, you will never get it untied while the rope is weighted.
For briefly going hands free on a rappel, you can also wrap the rope around your leg three times.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Oct 12, 2009, 3:39 PM
Post #8 of 24
(12064 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
The butterfly knot requires two hands to tie and two hands to unite, so is the wrong knot for the applications described.
Rappelling and belaying are different situations and ought to be considered separately.
Rappelling.
Using a stopper knot that is pulled tight up against the device and has to be untied is a very bad idea, because there will be substantial problems releasing it.
Using something releasable like an overhand slip knot is also dicey, because the rope weight can easily pull the knot out. An overhand backup would be required, and the tightening of the knot against the belay device while hanging might still make release problematic.
For safer and more effective ways, there are two considerations: Are we speaking of a brief impromptu stops, for example to untangle rappel ropes, or is it known ahead of time that there will be many periods of hanging, some of which might be long?
For brief pauses, by far the best technique is several wraps around the leg. Extremely easy to put on and take off and about as foolproof as any procedure can be. If the weight of the rope seems to be pulling the wraps down the leg, one can bring the rope from the last wrap up and over the opposite shoulder.
For long hanging sessions, one ought to use one of the several friction-knot backup systems rather than any kind of releasable knot set-up. Such systems are easier to deploy and provide some protection against accidental release by the braking hand. Some people do like to back up the friction knot by clipping an overhand loop back to their harness if they will be hanging and working for a long time.
Belaying.
Although a fairly common procedure, it is probably best not to use a stopper knot that will be pulled up against the belay device as a way for the belayer to go hands free, usually at the belay stance when gear is being passed back and forth. The reason is that the belayed person is really in a factor-2 fall situation, and testing by Attaway indicates a substantial danger of serious rope damage if a fall has to be caught.
Considering that it is virtually always a simple matter to just clip the other climber in to the anchor, either with the rope or with a tether worn by the climber, it is hard to see any good reason to tie off the belay device directly.
If the belayer wants to go hands-free in a situation in which the other climber is still on the pitch or is actually hanging on the belay, then the illustrated munter mule or one of several variations are the typical solutions. However, for a belayer who has held a leader fall and now has to escape the belay, the leg wrap is a faster and more foolproof way.
The critical principle here is that a rope that is or will become weighted should always be tied off with an appropriate releasable hitch, otherwise the party will encounter substantial difficulties getting the load on the anchor untied when it becomes necessary.
(This post was edited by rgold on Oct 12, 2009, 3:42 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
p8ntballsk8r
Oct 12, 2009, 8:04 PM
Post #9 of 24
(11981 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 12, 2009
Posts: 81
|
Ok so that makes sense, don't use it because after it is loaded it will be near impossible to take out.
rgold wrote: The butterfly knot requires two hands to tie and two hands to unite, so is the wrong knot for the applications described.
The way I learned how to tie the butterfly, was one handed. I was in a situation where we were replacing holds on a climbing wall and my belayer needed to leave the wall area.
He taught me the 1handed butterfly and tossed me an atc so I could self-belay (rapel but not really) myself down the wall.
I did this by tying the butterfly on the belay end of the rope, then clipping it into a biner attached to my harness.
I'm not sure if I'll be any good at describing this knot in words, but I'll give it a shot.
Wrap the rope 3 times around your free hand. Take the lowest of the 3 wraps, pull it up and over the other two. next take the originally middle wrap (now the bottom, and pull it up and over the other two, followed by pulling it through the two that you just pulled it up and over. This becomes the bite that you can clip a a biner into to safely hang.
Hope this made sense, the way I tie it is to wrap it around my hand/base of my fingers, using my thumb to pull up the bottom wraps and working the bite through where I can switch and pull with my thumb and forefinger all the way through the two other wraps of rope.
|
|
|
|
|
testrosa
Oct 12, 2009, 8:39 PM
Post #10 of 24
(11956 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 12, 2009
Posts: 2
|
ditto on mule, but do fined alpine butterfly easy to tie one handed and often reason I use it for an inline knot
(This post was edited by testrosa on Oct 12, 2009, 8:41 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Oct 13, 2009, 12:41 AM
Post #11 of 24
(11920 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
The method described for tying the butterfly is one of the two standard methods. Have fun doing this one-handed with the full weight of a pair of ropes while on rappel. It can be done, but there is no point in view of the much better available options.
Anyway, my point wasn't about one-handed tying. The munter mule and leg wraps take two hands to tie (but not to untie) too. One of the main points is to have something that is releasable when loaded, and a butterfly tied as a stopper knot is a bad choice for this purpose.
|
|
|
|
|
p8ntballsk8r
Oct 13, 2009, 5:35 AM
Post #12 of 24
(11880 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 12, 2009
Posts: 81
|
I agree the buttlerfly is not a good solution. I went to the gym here at school and tried it out. I like it, and after tying it and looking at exactly how it works am very confident in this knot doing exactly what I wanted to accomplish.
I showed the guy working at the gym, (it's pretty small so there was only 1 guy working) he wasn't really a fan and said it should only be used for emergencies and blah blah blah... not a fan of gym rules, but I guess I just won't use it there
|
|
|
|
|
king_rat
Oct 13, 2009, 11:23 AM
Post #13 of 24
(11849 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 20, 2005
Posts: 365
|
I was going to answer this, but rgold has said exactly what I would have said so ill just quote from him to reinforce his point, take his advice:
rgold wrote: The butterfly knot requires two hands to tie and two hands to unite, so is the wrong knot for the applications described. Rappelling and belaying are different situations and ought to be considered separately. Rappelling. Using a stopper knot that is pulled tight up against the device and has to be untied is a very bad idea, because there will be substantial problems releasing it. Using something releasable like an overhand slip knot is also dicey, because the rope weight can easily pull the knot out. An overhand backup would be required, and the tightening of the knot against the belay device while hanging might still make release problematic. For safer and more effective ways, there are two considerations: Are we speaking of a brief impromptu stops, for example to untangle rappel ropes, or is it known ahead of time that there will be many periods of hanging, some of which might be long? For brief pauses, by far the best technique is several wraps around the leg. Extremely easy to put on and take off and about as foolproof as any procedure can be. If the weight of the rope seems to be pulling the wraps down the leg, one can bring the rope from the last wrap up and over the opposite shoulder. For long hanging sessions, one ought to use one of the several friction-knot backup systems rather than any kind of releasable knot set-up. Such systems are easier to deploy and provide some protection against accidental release by the braking hand. Some people do like to back up the friction knot by clipping an overhand loop back to their harness if they will be hanging and working for a long time. Belaying. Although a fairly common procedure, it is probably best not to use a stopper knot that will be pulled up against the belay device as a way for the belayer to go hands free, usually at the belay stance when gear is being passed back and forth. The reason is that the belayed person is really in a factor-2 fall situation, and testing by Attaway indicates a substantial danger of serious rope damage if a fall has to be caught. Considering that it is virtually always a simple matter to just clip the other climber in to the anchor, either with the rope or with a tether worn by the climber, it is hard to see any good reason to tie off the belay device directly. If the belayer wants to go hands-free in a situation in which the other climber is still on the pitch or is actually hanging on the belay, then the illustrated munter mule or one of several variations are the typical solutions. However, for a belayer who has held a leader fall and now has to escape the belay, the leg wrap is a faster and more foolproof way. The critical principle here is that a rope that is or will become weighted should always be tied off with an appropriate releasable hitch, otherwise the party will encounter substantial difficulties getting the load on the anchor untied when it becomes necessary. |
|
|
|
|
billl7
Oct 13, 2009, 12:28 PM
Post #14 of 24
(11830 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
|
"Although a fairly common procedure, it is probably best not to use a stopper knot that will be pulled up against the belay device as a way for the belayer to go hands free, usually at the belay stance when gear is being passed back and forth. The reason is that the belayed person is really in a factor-2 fall situation, and testing by Attaway indicates a substantial danger of serious rope damage if a fall has to be caught."
I'll reconsider this usual practice of mine. Often, I do it because I want to get hands free to do something else and partner is also busy (impatience?).
I don't mean to nit-pick but I suspect most of the time the forces from a fall would be significantly less than from a fall factor 1. Also, my intuition is that if a fall at the belay is probable then my partner and I are usually tethered in and hanging - still, nothing to sneeze at.
This common procedure also brings to mind stopper knots on rappel (less than 10% usage for me). We sometimes do it as a last resort in case something unexpected happens on rappel. I view this common procedure at the belay anchor in a similar light - as a last resort when a fall is quite unexpected. (I'm using the words "last restor" rather loosely since it is obviously not the only option at the belay anchor.)
Bill L
|
|
|
|
|
patto
Oct 13, 2009, 12:37 PM
Post #15 of 24
(11824 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
I mostly agree with Rgold. Except for his comment about factor 2 falls from the belay, it seems more like a factor 1 fall to me!
That said I often use an overhand to tie off a belay/rappell.
Rappelling. Leg wrapps are the bomb. However if I'm hanging for any significant amount of time in one spot my paranoia insists on extra redundancy. A knot keeps me happy.
Belaying. I can tie an overhand on a bight in about 2 seconds. It is the fastest way to go hands free. There are numerous reasons why the belayer may need to go hands free and why bother screwing around. If there is almost no risk of weighting the belay then I see no reason to bother with anything else. If the person on the belay is at the anchor then I'll tie attach them to that.
Of course like others have said you really really don't want to be having the knot pulled tight against the belay device.
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Oct 13, 2009, 1:03 PM
Post #16 of 24
(11820 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
patto wrote: Of course like others have said you really really don't want to be having the knot pulled tight against the belay device.
Then why not use the mule and not risk it. The mule is fast and easy to tie.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Oct 13, 2009, 1:11 PM
Post #17 of 24
(11814 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
Knot craft is a peculiar form of gear envy.
The knots I use for climbing - fig 8, double bowline, half hitch, clove hitch, fisherman's, overhand knot, prussik and prussik-variants, and granny knot for my shoes.
I never saw a good reason for an alpine butterfly. I assumed it was french.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Oct 13, 2009, 1:12 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Oct 13, 2009, 1:13 PM
Post #18 of 24
(11810 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
|
johnwesely wrote: patto wrote: Of course like others have said you really really don't want to be having the knot pulled tight against the belay device. Then why not use the mule and not risk it. The mule is fast and easy to tie.
For me the mule feels either a) a little dicey to tie OR b) somewhat tedious ... with the difference between 'a' and 'b' being how much time/care I spend in doing it. That said, the more I do it the more it seems to tend towards 'b'. But it is still not fast and easy to me ... especially when the load strand is loaded; edit to add: but it is the obvious choice when the load strand is loaded.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Oct 13, 2009, 1:15 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
patto
Oct 13, 2009, 1:55 PM
Post #19 of 24
(11788 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
johnwesely wrote: patto wrote: Of course like others have said you really really don't want to be having the knot pulled tight against the belay device. Then why not use the mule and not risk it. The mule is fast and easy to tie.
Because the risk of having the know pulled tight is extremely remote! I am prepared to deal with it if it does.
The mule is a better knot. But it isn't faster.
|
|
|
|
|
dugl33
Oct 21, 2009, 5:23 AM
Post #20 of 24
(11591 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2009
Posts: 740
|
Kid -- you've received some excellent advice including an animation of a mule knot, and a spot on write up from rgold, and yet you seem to blow off the advice and even want to dispense your own.
You obviously have very little real climbing knowledge, experience, or even common sense, so do the world a favor and take some amga certified classes and for christ sake don't dispense your own advice to even less knowledgable people.
The most serious, valid reason to need to let go of your belay (not rappel) is to help an injured partner, in which case you will need the mule knot to be able to escape the belay completely if need be. In this situation the belay is loaded the entire time, and you need a releasable knot. Otherwise, a simple overhand as previously suggested should work fine assuming you're using an atc or similar device.
Pick out the good advice and run with it, or stop posting bull-shit and then going off in the wrong direction anyway.
(This post was edited by dugl33 on Oct 21, 2009, 5:57 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
sburns4
Oct 21, 2009, 5:58 AM
Post #21 of 24
(11578 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 8, 2007
Posts: 17
|
A great way to go hands free on a rappell is to set up a third hand. Essentailly what this is is a prussik hitch tied below the rappell/belay device. Whenever i climb i have a carabiner and about a loop of 6mm cord about 3 feet long on my leg loop. What this allows me to do is go hands free on the rappell.
When I start the rappell i initially tie a prussik hitch of some kind (i use a kleimheist, but a normal prussik hitch will do) around both strands of the rope and then attach it to the carabiner on the leg loop. Then above the hitch i put my device in. This allows the climber to go hands free at any point in time. It is great for cleaning routes and can be used to suss moves. And even if the hitch does not catch it will jam the device (not fun to deal with so tie it well).
As far as going hands free on the belay the leg wrap is great to pause for a second but i think that if you have a climber on keep your hand on unless you have to rescue. If you are worried about a climber chilling on your rope for a long time get a grigri (learn to use it correctly) and simply tie an overhand below the device once it is weigthed.
|
|
|
|
|
dynosore
Oct 21, 2009, 12:10 PM
Post #22 of 24
(11524 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 1768
|
sburns4 wrote: A great way to go hands free on a rappell is to set up a third hand. Essentailly what this is is a prussik hitch tied below the rappell/belay device. Whenever i climb i have a carabiner and about a loop of 6mm cord about 3 feet long on my leg loop. What this allows me to do is go hands free on the rappell. When I start the rappell i initially tie a prussik hitch of some kind (i use a kleimheist, but a normal prussik hitch will do) around both strands of the rope and then attach it to the carabiner on the leg loop. Then above the hitch i put my device in. This allows the climber to go hands free at any point in time. It is great for cleaning routes and can be used to suss moves. And even if the hitch does not catch it will jam the device (not fun to deal with so tie it well).
Wow, I've never heard of this.
|
|
|
|
|
thepuddlestore
Oct 22, 2009, 1:22 AM
Post #23 of 24
(11462 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2008
Posts: 22
|
I highly recommend the auto-block over the kleimheist/prussik because it is easier to unload once it is weighted, it feeds easier during the rap and is just as secure.
my$.02
|
|
|
|
|
patmay81
Oct 22, 2009, 2:33 AM
Post #24 of 24
(11434 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2006
Posts: 1081
|
cilohabmilc wrote: While tying a knot below your ATC will stop a fall by jamming itself in the device, it will get messy when you need to remove the knot. My preferred method is a mule knot. This illustration isn't exactly how I learned it, but it should work none the less. [image]http://laffers.net/images/ropedup/mule_knot_on_atc_250px.gif[/image] This way you are securing the rope in the break position instead of jamming a knot into your belay device.
|
|
|
|
|
|
