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Munter Hitch Use - Belay
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Poll: Munter Hitch Use - Belay
Never, I carry 3 belay devices while leading. 8 / 9%
Only when I leave my belay device on the previous anchor or drop it. 48 / 54%
I'll sometimes use the munter when belaying the second off the anchors. 27 / 30%
I use the munter exclusively cause I'm light, fast, and awesome. 6 / 7%
89 total votes
 

johndevitis


Oct 17, 2009, 11:26 AM
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Munter Hitch Use - Belay
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So lately I've been trying to cut the weight of my rack down and get away with as little as possible. One of the things I'm contemplating doing away with is my belay device.. or having one belay device for a team of two.

Obviously one of the big concerns is the rope kink.. but I've been using a Petzl Nomad this season and have not been able to put a single kink in this thing.

I'm wondering... how many here use the munter on a regular basis?


jmeizis


Oct 17, 2009, 11:33 AM
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Re: [johndevitis] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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I'll use it if I forget a belay device or because I'm trying to be fast or it just works for a particular situation but I try to avoid it because of the rope twisting and it can be a real pain on climbs with a lot of drag or a struggling second.


Partner climboard


Oct 17, 2009, 11:50 AM
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Re: [johndevitis] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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I used it for belaying the second for years before Reversos were available. It works great and won't kink the ropes if you pay attention and keep the strands running in parallel.

It is more difficult to prevent twists in the rope when rappelling so I still carried a tube device.

It'd be a practical set up if you didn't have to rap, it was a single rap, or you were willing to do a tandem rappel off your partner's device.


pazzo


Oct 17, 2009, 11:56 AM
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Re: [johndevitis] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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There really is no point on using the munter unless you're saving weight - which is silly cause the Reverso≥/Attache 3D (for what I use) is so light to begin with, you wouldn't really notice it. Not to mention it takes 10 seconds to set up when belaying off the anchors.

If you are really trying to save weight you should try using a thinner rope. The Nomad feels thick(?) for a 9.8mm rope.
Depending on your/and your partner's ability, try using a Beal Joker 9.1mm or Mammut Revealtion 9.2mm.

Also try shedding weight by using the Black Diamond OZ biners with their skinny dogbones (for standard draws) or use the OZ biners with the super skinny Mammut slings for the trad draws. Put OZ biners on all your cams as well.

Do all that and you won't need to use the munter to belay Wink


johndevitis


Oct 17, 2009, 12:43 PM
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Re: [climboard] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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climboard wrote:
It'd be a practical set up if you didn't have to rap, it was a single rap, or you were willing to do a tandem rappel off your partner's device.

With one belay device per team it'd be pretty efficient to lower one climber and have the second rap off the one belay device, imo. To quote Alen Jolley.. "lowering your partner is the next best thing to jumping off the ledge"

... and I tend to shy away from tandem rappels.. especially if I'm not rapping off bolts.


johndevitis


Oct 17, 2009, 12:56 PM
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Re: [pazzo] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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pazzo wrote:

If you are really trying to save weight you should try using a thinner rope. The Nomad feels thick(?) for a 9.8mm rope.
Depending on your/and your partner's ability, try using a Beal Joker 9.1mm or Mammut Revealtion 9.2mm.

Yea, the Nomad feels thick, esp for a 9.8. I caught it on a super deal for real cheap. But thinner ropes tend to be more expensive and I'm poor.

Plus with the beatings I put on my ropes, I think 9.8 is probably the thinnest single I'd go with for multipitch.

pazzo wrote:
Also try shedding weight by using the Black Diamond OZ biners with their skinny dogbones (for standard draws) or use the OZ biners with the super skinny Mammut slings for the trad draws. Put OZ biners on all your cams as well.

Do all that and you won't need to use the munter to belay Wink

So yea, now that we've established that I'm super poor... new, light, expensive biners are pretty much out of the question. I'm using hotwires now, and on a whole they're not too heavy.

pazzo wrote:
There really is no point on using the munter unless you're saving weight

Well, that's the reason for the whole post. But its not just weight you would be saving. You would have 1 less belay device as well as 2 less biners clogging up your harness.



Where are all these euro's at that I hear so much about?


ShibbyShane


Oct 17, 2009, 4:47 PM
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Re: [johndevitis] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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 I don't think it's worth the hassle. An atc and a small pear locking biner don't weight enough to leave it behind.


johnwesely


Oct 17, 2009, 5:53 PM
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Re: [johndevitis] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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I belayed my second with a munter once because I had to set and anchor and do a top belay when I thought there were rings, and it sucked.


altelis


Oct 17, 2009, 7:11 PM
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Re: [ShibbyShane] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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ShibbyShane wrote:
I don't think it's worth the hassle. An atc and a small pear locking biner don't weight enough to leave it behind.

Even more to the point- you need the locker anyway for the munter, so the only weight savings comes from the belay device itself!


pazzo


Oct 17, 2009, 8:41 PM
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Re: [johndevitis] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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johndevitis wrote:
Plus with the beatings I put on my ropes, I think 9.8 is probably the thinnest single I'd go with for multipitch.

Reconsider the Beal Booster 9.7mm. It is a far better rope, imo, than the Petzl Nomad (I have both and have taken huge whippers on each of them so I'm speaking on experience).

The durability/handling of the Booster is probably the best of any rope I've used (that's not to say there isn't equal or better ropes available on the market).


paulraphael


Oct 17, 2009, 8:52 PM
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Re: [pazzo] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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I like the munter. I don't use it often, but find it perfect for a second who might have trouble, need to hang, be lowered, etc...

Despite autoblocking devices being advertised as "perfect for guiding," they're a nuissance if there's a good chance you'll have to lower.

Munter is also great if you lose your belay device, or in a feat of idiocy, leave it at the last belay with your partner (i've done this ...).

Good to have in your trickbag even if you only pull it out once in a while.


qwert


Oct 18, 2009, 2:59 AM
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Re: [paulraphael] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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If you know how to use it, the munter is perfectly fine as a belay "device".
And if it twists your rope, you are doing it wrong!

However there are two things it sucks for: belaying with double ropes (If you want independent rope control you have to use two munters, wich is a pain in the ass, and kills the weight advantage) and for rappeling. While rappeling is possible, it is rather hard to do without twisting the rope.

Nowadays i mostly use the TRE for everything. sometimes for lead belaying also the ATC or the munter.
for belaying directly from the anchor (another can of worms) its either the TRE when there is enough space for it to move, or the Munter wich works well in confined spots.

But you have to bring another device for rappeling anyway, so just using the munter for its weight savings is useless (unless you rappel with biner brakes). Use it for its versality and brake power.

qwert


john_itis


Oct 18, 2009, 7:59 AM
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Re: [qwert] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
But you have to bring another device for rappeling anyway, so just using the munter for its weight savings is useless (unless you rappel with biner brakes). Use it for its versality and brake power.

qwert

But what about the lowering/rappelling system? There has to be some validity in that, no?


qwert


Oct 18, 2009, 10:27 AM
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Re: [john_itis] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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john_itis wrote:
qwert wrote:
But you have to bring another device for rappeling anyway, so just using the munter for its weight savings is useless (unless you rappel with biner brakes). Use it for its versality and brake power.

qwert

But what about the lowering/rappelling system? There has to be some validity in that, no?
Oh, forgot about that!

Yes, will work. However if it will be slower or faster than a "traditional" rappel would depend on the situation.

Personally i really dislike being lowerd, since i dont have control over whats happening, and especially on long pitches, or when its noisy (wind etc.) and you cant communicate with the one lowering you.

Two little - slightly thread drifting - stories on getting lowerd:

Multipitch icefall. Two lower pitches, one more or less walking pitch in the middle and 2 upper pitches.
We rappeled the upper pitches normally, and had a good bolted belay above the two lower pitches. We had double ropes, and we had to hurry to get down.
so my partner lowered me the whole two pitches (double ropes tied together - you can feed an EDK through a large munter ) so that i could already pack my stuff at the base, and he could rappel the two pitches rather fast, since i wasnt tied to a belay, but walked away from the base, so that i was safe from ice fall.
So there this technique was an advantage.

Next example: climbing next to a waterfall. I was following and at the end of the first pitch we decided to get down, since the next pitch didnt look attractive at all. since the ledge was rather small, i was getting lowered.
Problem was the climb was going sideways, so the belay was directly above the waterfall.
- can you guess what that leads to ? -
Soon i realized that, but it was to late anyways, and my buddy couldnt hear me anyways, so i was going into the waterfall Crazy
In the middle i found a ledge, and stood on that, trying to get out of the waterfall. I didnt get slack, so i though my belayer realized that i was stopping. Turns out the waterfall was pulling on the rope on his side, so he kept lowering me (or he thought he was) while i was standing there. went a bit to the side and wheighted the rope again.
The whole thing resulted in a nice victory wipper Laugh and a pendulum right into the waterfall again, scraping alle over the - luckily quite polished - wall, and then some toprope swimming, much to the amusement of my friends at the base.

So you see: it has advantages and disadvantages, but i would say for most situations a standart rappel is best.

qwert


Partner rgold


Oct 18, 2009, 11:46 AM
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Re: [qwert] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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A Petzl Verso weighs 2 ounces. There is no way that your body could detect a two-ounce variation in the weight you are carrying, so I think you are looking in the wrong place for weight savings.

There's nothing the matter with a Munter for single rope belaying. Rappelling is another matter; twisting and kinking of the ropes, and the various problems that are consequences, are likely, so some alternate rappel strategy is needed.

Lowering the first person down has some advantages, but can also cause a host of problems if communication is bad. Trading for these possible problems to save an undetectable two ounces doesn't make sense to me.

A better strategy would be to do carabiner brake rappels. These might unacceptably wear some of the modern featherweight biners. Having on hand eight burlier biners for the purpose imposes a much greater weight penalty than using lighter gear and a Verso.

Bottom line: find weight savings somewhere else.


jaablink


Oct 18, 2009, 2:22 PM
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Re: [johndevitis] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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I am partial to the guide or reverso devices on MP climbs. Cragging , an ATC works well enough. The munter and super munter are very good backups to know. There are many other ways to lighten your rack without giving up the modern advantages of a verso device. Including but not limited to, changing over to the lightest carabineers and lockers on the market with super thin slings, and not carrying cordage for anchoring, use the rope instead. Or , bring as much shit as you want then make your partner carry what you donít need for the pitch .

If you are talking about remote alpine or a less frequently trafficked area - that you donít want to keep packing gear in time and time again. Just put together another set and stash it somewhere, or have a local community stash of gearÖ


healyje


Oct 18, 2009, 3:18 PM
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Re: [johndevitis] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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Skip the next donut and cheeseburger instead.


bennydh


Oct 18, 2009, 3:59 PM
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healyje wrote:
Skip the next donut and cheeseburger instead.
Add: dropping the kids off before climbing, and climbing dehydrated.


notapplicable


Oct 18, 2009, 8:56 PM
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Re: [john_itis] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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john_itis wrote:
qwert wrote:
But you have to bring another device for rappeling anyway, so just using the munter for its weight savings is useless (unless you rappel with biner brakes). Use it for its versality and brake power.

qwert

But what about the lowering/rappelling system? There has to be some validity in that, no?


No. Not when it's only two ounces standing between the team and a more efficient, versatile and safe system.


hendo


Nov 2, 2009, 7:22 AM
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I voted for #4 (because I especially liked the "awesome" bit), though in actual practice I'm more in-between #3 and #4. I do carry an ATC Guide but I use a Munter just as often.

One advantage of a Munter that has not been mentioned yet: it has greater braking power than the ATC-style setup. The ATC slips at about 1.5 kN, the Munter at about 2.5 kn.

As for eliminating a braking device to get the weight of your gear down ...

Worrying about the weight of a basic belay device is neurotic. Please, don't be a neurotic.


qtm


Nov 2, 2009, 7:50 AM
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Re: [rgold] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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2 ounces? LoL... you could cut 3 feet off your lead rope to save that weight, that's only 1.5 feet shorter on a single rope rap.


blueeyedclimber


Nov 4, 2009, 12:41 PM
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Re: [johndevitis] Munter Hitch Use - Belay [In reply to]
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I voted never, although you didn't really have MY answer: Never, because I never drop or leave my atc behind.

Josh


cfnubbler


Nov 6, 2009, 9:39 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
I voted never, although you didn't really have MY answer: Never, because I never drop or leave my atc behind.

Josh

Never say never....


blueeyedclimber


Nov 6, 2009, 11:38 AM
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cfnubbler wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
I voted never, although you didn't really have MY answer: Never, because I never drop or leave my atc behind.

Josh

Never say never....

Well, if I ever did drop mine, I know how to set up and use a munter. But I also know how important it is not to drop stuff, so I don't.

What i am curious about, is for those of you who have dropped your belay device, Have you done it more than once?

Josh


TarHeelEMT


Nov 6, 2009, 3:18 PM
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I've never dropped it, but I have flat-out forgotten it.

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