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sidepull
Nov 2, 2009, 8:22 AM
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Prelude:
One of the reasons that I really began to pursue climbing (as opposed to other sports I was interested in at the time: beach volleyball, basketball, etc.) was the sense that I could climb at a fairly high level for a longer time period.
One of the ways to ruin the promise of longevity in a climbing career is overuse injuries.
I've tried to be very thoughtful about how I train and how I climb. I've tried to better learn when to stop and not push myself into an injury.
Question:
Shoulders are often a point of weakness for climbers and seem to be an area very susceptible to injury. I know enough to know that "just climbing" won't get my shoulders strong enough in a holistic way to avoid injury.
I know a variety of good shoulder health exercises. My question is, when do you do them in relation to climbing to ensure that you're developing the shoulder rather than tiring it out and thereby increasing the risk of injury.
For example, say I have a hard climbing training day (eg, 30 min ARC, trying a few problems at my limit, finished with 4x4's). Should I exercise my shoulders at the end of this workout or wait until the next day? Or, should I stop climbing for say 3-5 weeks and work my shoulders into a good state of fitness and then go back to climbing?
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chadnsc
Nov 2, 2009, 8:56 AM
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Well here is what I do for my shoulders the morning (before work) of my typical climbing days (climb in the evening). I’ll typically do these exercises two to three times a week. Please keep in mind I do other exercise as well but these are the ones related to specifically to my shoulders.
Internal Shoulder rotations (3 x 15)
External Shoulder Rotations (3 x 15)
Shoulder Press w/ dumbbells ( 3 x 10)
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sidepull
Nov 2, 2009, 7:48 PM
Post #4 of 14
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Thanks.
Soap Box: I find it hilarious (moronic?) that this thread gets two comments and yet another 1-arm pull-up post has 18 in less time.
Okay, I get it. Stepping off the soap box now.
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TheRucat
Nov 2, 2009, 8:58 PM
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sidepull wrote: Thanks. Soap Box: I find it hilarious (moronic?) that this thread gets two comments and yet another 1-arm pull-up post has 18 in less time. Okay, I get it. Stepping off the soap box now.
I wonder if one arm pull ups would be a good way to ensure that you don't injure your shoulder? 
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newguy5000
Nov 3, 2009, 7:07 PM
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I'm no expert but i had a couple of shoulder injuries over the years. I have 4 things i do regularly now and have had no shoulder problems since.
1. Stretch.
Pretty obvious but i was really lazy and only stretched haphazardly before. Warm up with dynamic stretches getting all your joints ready and used to a good range of movement. Warm down with a series of static stretches. One problem i had was the chest gets really tight (i think it's pectorial minor?) from climbing and if you don't stretch that a lot you will bring your shoulders forward ruining your every day posture and possibly leading to impingment on the rotator.
2. Rotator Cuff exercises
I do them on off days. I found i get more out of the exercises if i really focus on muscular control of the area i am working out.
3. Posture
climbing gives you bad posture. How you hold your back and shoulder for climbing can easily develop into a hunched over posture. I started to pay attention to my everyday posture sitting and walking making sure i adopted proper form. It's actually incredibly hard at first if your posture sucks but after while it lines back up.
4. Scapular exercises
these exercises help to pull your shoulders back, correct posture and counterbalance the 'climbing' posture. just a few simple scapular exercises worked wonders on my back.
Since adopting that regime my shoulders have been bulletproof. i do the RC and scapular exercises on off days. But i often finish a climbing session with a couple of static scapular holds as it makes my back feel good.
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lrossi
Nov 3, 2009, 9:57 PM
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newguy5000 wrote: Warm up with dynamic stretches getting all your joints ready and used to a good range of movement.
I'm a layman, and I'm prepared to be spanked by someone who knows something. But that sounds like a really, really bad idea. Dynamic stretches are questionable in any circumstances, but as a warm-up? I think it's not a good plan.
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newguy5000
Nov 3, 2009, 11:48 PM
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lrossi wrote: newguy5000 wrote: Warm up with dynamic stretches getting all your joints ready and used to a good range of movement. I'm a layman, and I'm prepared to be spanked by someone who knows something. But that sounds like a really, really bad idea. Dynamic stretches are questionable in any circumstances, but as a warm-up? I think it's not a good plan.
I'm a layman too, but i don't think you know what dynamic stretches are. This is my understanding of them that i have taken off a simple google search:
In reply to: Dynamic stretches done as part of a motion, usually a very slow motion that uses the body as resistance. To get the most out of a dynamic stretch, do a number of repetitions. Good dynamic stretches for rock climbers include climbing up and down a flight of stairs. The movements need to be deliberate and slow, so the muscles is works against the weight of your body. For another stretch, swing your arms in large circles and rotate your neck from side-to-side and front-to-back. Also, bend at the waste to warm up the muscles in your arms, shoulders, neck and back. Walk 50 yards with very high knees, then perform walking lunges. These are all good examples of dynamic stretches that will help prepare your muscles for rock climbing
We used to do them all the time as part of our warm up when i played state basketball as well as when i boxed. The idea is take it easy with them and loosen up your body and get it prepared for movement. I don't really do most of the ones listed in that quote. I do simple arms swings across body and above body, shoulder rotations, a few different ones to loosen up the lower back then some leg swings and groin openers. Takes about 10 or swings or so of each exercise for me to reach my normal range of motion - all up maybe 5 or 6 minutes before i do my warm up climb.
save the static stretching for your warm down after your climbing session.
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lrossi
Nov 4, 2009, 5:32 AM
Post #9 of 14
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You are right, I was confused. I was thinking of ballistic stretches.
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onceahardman
Nov 4, 2009, 4:20 PM
Post #10 of 14
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newguy5000 wrote: lrossi wrote: newguy5000 wrote: Warm up with dynamic stretches getting all your joints ready and used to a good range of movement. I'm a layman, and I'm prepared to be spanked by someone who knows something. But that sounds like a really, really bad idea. Dynamic stretches are questionable in any circumstances, but as a warm-up? I think it's not a good plan. I'm a layman too, but i don't think you know what dynamic stretches are. This is my understanding of them that i have taken off a simple google search: In reply to: Dynamic stretches done as part of a motion, usually a very slow motion that uses the body as resistance. To get the most out of a dynamic stretch, do a number of repetitions. Good dynamic stretches for rock climbers include climbing up and down a flight of stairs. The movements need to be deliberate and slow, so the muscles is works against the weight of your body. For another stretch, swing your arms in large circles and rotate your neck from side-to-side and front-to-back. Also, bend at the waste to warm up the muscles in your arms, shoulders, neck and back. Walk 50 yards with very high knees, then perform walking lunges. These are all good examples of dynamic stretches that will help prepare your muscles for rock climbing We used to do them all the time as part of our warm up when i played state basketball as well as when i boxed. The idea is take it easy with them and loosen up your body and get it prepared for movement. I don't really do most of the ones listed in that quote. I do simple arms swings across body and above body, shoulder rotations, a few different ones to loosen up the lower back then some leg swings and groin openers. Takes about 10 or swings or so of each exercise for me to reach my normal range of motion - all up maybe 5 or 6 minutes before i do my warm up climb. save the static stretching for your warm down after your climbing session.
newguy, I admit I didn't bother searching to find the source of your cut and pasted google quote, but it really bugs me when someone who is giving advice on health says something like, "bend at the waste"...which has a different (and funnier) meaning than "bend at the waist".
Also, stretching has a specific meaning. It is moving to end-range, statically or dynamically, with the goal of increasing the available ROM. What the writer has described is really active range-of-motion (AROM), which has many valuable uses, but is NOT specifically designed to increase ROM, merely to maintain available ROM.
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onceahardman
Nov 4, 2009, 4:29 PM
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aerili wrote: sidepull wrote: Question: Should I exercise my shoulders at the end of this workout or wait until the next day? Or, should I stop climbing for say 3-5 weeks and work my shoulders into a good state of fitness and then go back to climbing? If you are actively having shoulder pain and limitations due to an already-developed injury, I would take the time off and focus on shoulder rehab. Otherwise I would do RC exercises either way: 1) On off days so that you are less fatigued. 2) AFTER the climbing workout--this may possibly mean you will have to use lighter weights and/or even one less set per exercise, depending on how fatigued you may be. I would never train RC before a climbing training session. Skill may then deteriorate and new/further injury could be more likely when trying to pull down on tired stabilizers. HTH. 
Really good reply, aerili. I would take a minor (and not mutually exclusive) issue with it. I would (and do) warm up with some easy RC strengthening if I had any shoulder problems at all, before climbing/training for climbing. Not "strength training" in the normal sense...but the same motions, with much lower load/set/rep parameters.
In fact, if you watch the World Series tonite, watch the relief pitchers just before they get up to throw. They'll have a bit of theraband, and do the familiar exercises, just a set or two, before throwing, then going out and blowing 98 mph fastballs.
Out of curiousity, have you ever thought about how much force it takes to decelerate an arm traveling 100 mph, in a few hundredths of a second?
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newguy5000
Nov 4, 2009, 5:44 PM
Post #12 of 14
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Yeah the quote is cut and pasted i actually do a set of different motions. As i mentioned i am a layman as well, though i have read lots of books on these kinds of things i don't pretend i have any kind of comprehensive understanding of the science behind it.
I understand the term 'stretching' has a specific meaning, i used the term dynamic stretching because that is the term i have heard people most commonly use and thought people would be more familar with it. But i agree it's more AROM.
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angry
Nov 4, 2009, 6:04 PM
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Starting in about May or June, my right shoulder felt bruised. It felt like I hit it on something and it was sore to the touch and sore to move. It was never swollen. It also never held me back from climbing.
In September I did some seriously lame and unresearched exercises that totally cured the shoulder.
With two 5lbs medicine balls, I'd do 10 front raises and 10 shoulder presses with each arm. I'd do that about 3 times, and 2-3 times a week. I didn't stop climbing or climb less. It fixed the shoulder, it's basically perfect now.
Take this for what it's worth (not much).
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aerili
Nov 4, 2009, 11:56 PM
Post #14 of 14
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onceahardman wrote: Really good reply, aerili. I would take a minor (and not mutually exclusive) issue with it. I would (and do) warm up with some easy RC strengthening if I had any shoulder problems at all, before climbing/training for climbing. Not "strength training" in the normal sense...but the same motions, with much lower load/set/rep parameters.
Yes, I'm familiar with what you're saying and I have and do use those exact same "RC activation" (or so I like to think of it) exercises before and during activity with both myself and clients, especially if the shoulder hurts. Another PT taught it to me and she gave me the impression it helps to immediately assist in maintaining the humeral head in the right position in the joint.
BUT I don't think of those exercises as targeted strengthening/rehab per se...rightly or wrongly.
In reply to: Out of curiousity, have you ever thought about how much force it takes to decelerate an arm traveling 100 mph, in a few hundredths of a second?
Hell yeah! We definitely had to consider those exact such things when I took biomechanics in my undergraduate. The angular velocities in the shoulder joints of pitchers is astounding--like thousands of degrees per second! Then your muscles have to slow it all down just as fast!
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