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Munter mod?
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coolcat83


Oct 26, 2009, 10:46 AM
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Munter mod?
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Anyone ever seen this before? I don't know what the guy is saying so that might help me too.

http://www.youtube.com/...ure=rec-HM-fresh+div


joeforte


Oct 26, 2009, 10:56 AM
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It looks like the first 'biner gets loaded way off axis (near it's nose) when the thing locks up. I've never seen this before!


moose_droppings


Oct 26, 2009, 11:05 AM
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coolcat83 wrote:
Anyone ever seen this before? I don't know what the guy is saying so that might help me too.

http://www.youtube.com/...ure=rec-HM-fresh+div

He said, "Unicorns are pretty when they run, also, I like peanut butter."



I agree with Joe, looks a little sketch to me.


johnwesely


Oct 26, 2009, 12:01 PM
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His carabiner is not even closed.


justroberto


Oct 26, 2009, 12:03 PM
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Aside from acting like an atc-guide (an unnecessary luxury), it doesn't seem to add anything to the munter that can't be achieved simply through other techniques (munter-mule). I wouldn't be worried about either of the biners magically exploding upon loading, though. I wouldn't use it, but wouldn't feel uncomfortable if a partner did.


coolcat83


Oct 26, 2009, 12:04 PM
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yup it does look pretty sketchy. and I agree the loading on the gate doesn't look good either.


Partner abe_ascends


Oct 26, 2009, 12:13 PM
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He is clearly quite skilled. Just look at how he locks his biners.

Edit: Dammit, beat to the punch.


(This post was edited by abe_ascends on Oct 26, 2009, 12:14 PM)


justroberto


Oct 26, 2009, 12:13 PM
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coolcat83 wrote:
and I agree the loading on the gate doesn't look good either.
the simple solution being to turn the main biner around and keep an eye on everything.


justroberto


Oct 26, 2009, 12:15 PM
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abe_ascends wrote:
Just look at how he locks his biners.
The simple solution being to lock the biners.


coolcat83


Oct 26, 2009, 12:16 PM
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true, still I wouldn't use it, and it seems this guy does a lot of things that are rescue oriented, at rescue loads It could be an issue.


justroberto


Oct 26, 2009, 12:21 PM
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coolcat83 wrote:
true, still I wouldn't use it, and it seems this guy does a lot of things that are rescue oriented, at rescue loads It could be an issue.

very true. like i said, i wouldn't ever find a need to use it. i still think it's kind of a clever braking mechanism.


Partner philbox
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Oct 26, 2009, 12:35 PM
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I thought this worth moving in here as it contains some worthwhile discussion on an innovation to the muenter.

It's also topical for me as I am currently engaged in an advanced rope rigging and rescue course down at the Blue Mountains. I'm having a lot of my preconceived notions challenged. Awesome course too.


kachoong


Oct 26, 2009, 12:45 PM
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Interesting.... I'm not at home to practice but I wonder what the results would be if his second carabiner was either smaller or larger than the first? How would that affect the locking? Should they be the same size?


freerangequark


Nov 2, 2009, 10:19 AM
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It looks like he's (poorly) rigged two biners through the munter to get something that functions like a garda.

I'll stick to my Guide ATC.

-Glenn


Partner xtrmecat


Nov 2, 2009, 11:47 AM
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Re: [freerangequark] Munter mod? [In reply to]
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  I see another issue. If I need to lock off with a mule on anything, once loaded I have control over the releasing and can lower at will. This appears to me that once locked up, would take some shenanigans to take off the brake and start lowering the load, say a second needed lowering.

Bob


maldaly


Nov 2, 2009, 11:57 AM
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Re: [freerangequark] Munter mod? [In reply to]
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Look like he's just figured out a way to make a Munter an autoblock. If he was more careful about which way the primary 'biner was rigged the gate-load thing would go away. Very interesting and another good tool for the toolbox.

What he doesn't show, however, is how to release a load under tension. From the video I can't tell if it would be possible, even with a re-directed body haul. This problem, of course, it the flaw in the whole auto-block method of belaying a second. While everyone claims that they can do it (or that at least they've read the instructions) I see very few setups in the field which I think would be safely releasable under control with a full load.

My advise for belaying directly off the anchors? Use a plain Munter hitch and don't let go of the brake strand.

Climb safe,
Mal


bennydh


Nov 2, 2009, 12:21 PM
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freerangequark wrote:
It looks like he's (poorly) rigged two biners through the munter to get something that functions like a garda.

I'll stick to my Guide ATC.

-Glenn

These were my thoughts exactly, It autolocks, and you can't feed anything, so there is no advantage over the much safer Garda.


knudenoggin


Nov 5, 2009, 10:11 AM
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Re: [maldaly] Munter mod? [In reply to]
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maldaly wrote:
Very interesting and another good tool for the toolbox.

Frankly, this looks quite dubious: the orientation of the added
'biner seems to be dependent upon its particular size/shape AND
the nature of the anchor ring into which it's clipped -- at least,
to my eyes, those factors play a big role in putting the 'biner
to where it has that locking effect.

As for not locking the biners, geeesh, notice that w/o holding
the first one, it doesn't close fully, sufficient to let the locking
sleave encompass the nose?


But, eureka(!), there IS a neat lock to be had for the
Mezzo Barcaiolo (M.B.) (aka "Munter"), but not releasable:


UNclip that video's added 'biner from the ring -- leaving
it clipped through the M.B. --, and clip into it the haul
line; this 'biner floats beneath the M.B., thus.

So clipped (and it could be clipped through the M.B. at
a right angle to this, going through the other two spaces
on the quad formed by the "X" of the M.B.), this 'biner
I think aids the free flow of rope through the structure,
but on release and load on the fall line only, the M.B. will
collapse and bind around the 'biner snug, looking good.

I just took a few pics of this, which I'll try to post soon.
But it should be easy to figure out. At the crossing point
of the Demi-Cabestan / M.B. / Halbmastwurf / Munter,
clip around it (one way or the other),
and then clip the line that holds the braked load.
(One can regard the crossing point --were rope collars itself--
of the M.B. as an "+" compass axes; clip through either the
NE+SW or else NW+SE quadrants. I believe that clipping
through the quadrant that the Spanish video shows clipped
is best for keeping the M.B. open & flowing for pulling through
rope; clipping the other side doesn't seem to provide as nice
a movement.)

.:. QED

*knudeNoggin*

Angelic


knudenoggin


Nov 5, 2009, 9:36 PM
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Promised photos, voici!

Photo 1 shows what I think is the preferable clip (of two ways).
Photos 2..4 show the locked structure from front-side-rear.
Photo 5 shows a re-opened structure with the haul line taking
an arc, absent tension.

The only release-under-tension I can think of is outside of the
mechanism, securing the haul line w/friction hitches and then
releasing the anchor of the M.B.brake onto their hold,
and then undoing the brake.

*kN*
Attachments: MB_Brake1_open-LM.jpg (34.3 KB)
  MB_Brake2_locked-front-LM.jpg (32.0 KB)
  MB_Brake3-locked-side-LM.jpg (32.7 KB)
  MB_Brake4_locked-rear-LM.jpg (35.0 KB)
  MB_Brake5_open-rear-LM.jpg (34.5 KB)


yokese


Nov 6, 2009, 12:32 AM
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Re: [coolcat83] Munter mod? [In reply to]
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As Malday said, he made an autoblock from a Munter.
I do understand what he is saying (albeit he has a strong accent). It's basically a method for hauling a second, not belaying. So (in theory) no need for a method to release the load.
It is similar to this other knot, that I learned for exactly the same purpose:



I do agree he should have been more careful about the biners gates before uploading the video to youtube.


adatesman


Nov 6, 2009, 6:22 AM
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dugl33


Nov 8, 2009, 3:32 PM
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Re: [adatesman] Munter mod? [In reply to]
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Funny - I can understand the spaniard perfectly, now knudennoggin on the other hand, not so much.

Check this out. Something new for you to test. The nine knot (nudo de nueve)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrBFkxJYTtY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmZzqZikYGQ

presumably their test results are in kilos.

Figure 8 vs nudo de nueve, mano a mano... can't wait.
Cheers.

(p.s. interesting to note the breakage was a few inches from the knot, and not at the edge of the knot.)


(This post was edited by dugl33 on Nov 8, 2009, 3:40 PM)


knudenoggin


Nov 9, 2009, 8:04 AM
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dugl33 wrote:
Funny - I can understand the spaniard perfectly, now knudennoggin on the other hand, not so much.

Well, ask, and maybe I can help you re the latter. Re the former,
there seems to be an exclamation in the Fig.9 testing that leads to
the camera being directed from the lefthand knot to the right on,
which in fact is which breaks!? -- being able to predict breakage
lie that verges on mystical: can you understand what was said then?

In reply to:
Figure 8 vs nudo de nueve, mano a mano... can't wait.

Nor do you need to: cf. http://www.hse.gov.uk/...df/2001/crr01364.pdf

After which you can speculate on how the dubious difference will matter.

In reply to:
(p.s. interesting to note the breakage was a few inches from the knot, and not at the edge of the knot.)

Look again. The rope breaks within the knot where the standing part
bends against eye legs, parts moving in opposite directions, too.
Too bad the video isn't of better quality, as some of the movement
of knot parts prior to rupture seem odd, but ... .

*kN*


(This post was edited by knudenoggin on Nov 12, 2009, 9:33 AM)


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