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brendeneng
Nov 6, 2009, 10:52 PM
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I'm a student researching accidents involving guides with their clients. If you know of any accident reports which I could look at it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Brenden
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colatownkid
Nov 6, 2009, 11:12 PM
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brendeneng wrote: I'm a student researching accidents involving guides with their clients. If you know of any accident reports which I could look at it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Brenden
Accidents in North American Mountaineering. Years of information. I'm sure there's some involving a guided expedition. Also, any of the relatively recent stuff on K2, Everest, etc.
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ClimbClimb
Nov 7, 2009, 3:33 AM
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brendeneng wrote: I'm a student researching accidents involving guides with their clients.
If you haven't already read it, for a detailed examination of a terrible tragedy and some viewpoints on possible pitfalls of guided expeditions, Jon Krakauer's "Into Thin Air" is a classic, of course, and a natural starting point. (As an aside, it helps to know that Krakauer is not just some writer, apparently he still climbs 5.11/5.12 at 50+ and is an accomplished mountaineer in his own right).
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billykent24
Nov 7, 2009, 5:53 AM
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Where's Majid???
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sungam
Nov 7, 2009, 10:27 AM
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billykent24 wrote: Where's Majid???
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dlintz
Nov 7, 2009, 1:29 PM
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sungam wrote: billykent24 wrote: Where's Majid??? Climbing around the great trango tower.
Looking to bag the FA complete traverse? Solid Majid!!
d.
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socalclimber
Nov 7, 2009, 2:34 PM
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brendeneng wrote: I'm a student researching accidents involving guides with their clients. If you know of any accident reports which I could look at it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Brenden
This should be interesting. Will you publish your paper here when you're done?
I think you'll have to look hard. Guide/client accidents are fairly rare, but they do indeed occur. Clients getting injured on a guides watch can be a career ender.
I think you will find that most of the deaths and accidents tend to occur on big mountains rather than the more main stream crag areas.
The most important skill in guiding has little to do with your climbing ability (say 5.12) as opposed to your skills in risk assessment and management.
Please post your research and sources when you're done. As a guide, I'd love to read it.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Nov 7, 2009, 2:35 PM)
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taydude
Nov 7, 2009, 3:48 PM
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From the handful of guides I've seen outdoors and the numerous gyms offering outdoor classes you'd think that there would be more injuries reported involving guides/ gym groups.
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tradmanclimbs
Nov 7, 2009, 4:25 PM
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Didn't the Bird get hurt pretty bad while guideing in the Tetons?
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socalclimber
Nov 7, 2009, 5:35 PM
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taydude wrote: From the handful of guides I've seen outdoors and the numerous gyms offering outdoor classes you'd think that there would be more injuries reported involving guides/ gym groups.
Why?
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hacksaw
Nov 7, 2009, 5:52 PM
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No, I think the Bird was the guide when the guy had the accident in the Chounaird harness that came unbuckled...
(This post was edited by hacksaw on Nov 7, 2009, 5:55 PM)
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maldaly
Nov 7, 2009, 6:36 PM
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Chouinard harness didn't COME unbuckled. Client went to take a leak and forgot to buckle it back up or didn't get it buckled correctly.
Kim Schmitz was guiding in the Tetons and was pulled off by his client. Took an 80' grounder. I think Mugs Stump was guiding when the crevasse lip collapsed, killing him. Craig Luebben was killed while training for a Guide's exam. Lot's of other stories like that.
Guiding is like climbing with a partner who is always on the lookout for clever and unexpected ways to kill you.
If you really want to plumb a deep well, dig up all the accident reports that involve Boy Scout climbing trips.
Climb safe,
Mal
(This post was edited by maldaly on Nov 7, 2009, 6:38 PM)
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hacksaw
Nov 7, 2009, 7:18 PM
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maldaly wrote: Chouinard harness didn't COME unbuckled. Client went to take a leak and forgot to buckle it back up or didn't get it buckled correctly. Mal
You are correct. I should have taken longer to write my answer. Sorry.
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johnwesely
Nov 7, 2009, 8:37 PM
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maldaly wrote: Guiding is like climbing with a partner who is always on the lookout for clever and unexpected ways to kill you.
If I were a guide, I would make the my signature.
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Lazlo
Nov 7, 2009, 8:50 PM
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johnwesely wrote: maldaly wrote: Guiding is like climbing with a partner who is always on the lookout for clever and unexpected ways to kill you. If I were a guide, I would make the my signature.
Heh.
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shockabuku
Nov 8, 2009, 4:08 AM
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I witnessed one. Turned out to be minor but didn't seem like it at first.
It was at Poison Ivy Wall, West Point, NY about June or July, 1994. Local news guy was shooting some video of climbing. He was on a TR belayed by a guide while parallel to him was a climber being belayed by another person. I still don't know exactly what happened. There were two other people at the top of the cliff so maybe they set the cameraman's rope up from the top and tied him in up there and lowered the other end down to the guide. Whatever, it turned out the ropes were of different length and the short rope was the one the camera guy was on. While lowering the cameraman the end of the rope went through the guide's hand, through the belay device, and the cameraman fell flat on his back from maybe 20 feet up or so. Based on the amount of pain he appeared to be in I thought he was pretty jacked up but he ended up checking out of the hospital the next day (or so I heard). Next time I saw the guide he was pulling harnesses out of the back of his car at the parking lot at the Gunks.
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rgold
Nov 8, 2009, 4:51 AM
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There have been several guided accidents in the Tetons over the years. The most recent ones I remember was a rappelling fatality that occurred after the guide retied an EDK between client descents and the knot came untied while a client was rappelling.
There was another one that didn't prove to be very serious, amazingly enough, when a guide was belaying a client directly on an anchor utilizing in-situ sling material that broke.
My experiences guiding BITD convinced me of the truth of Mal's crack about clients looking for clever ways to get the guide killed. I got especially good at stopping mid-move when no rope was forthcoming from my client's less-than-proficient belay.
A second issue is that many clients, although quite reasonably skilled at rock climbing, often have exceptionally little ability to move safely on easy ground, with the result that you can absolutely never be sure they won't fall on fourth, third, or even second-class territory. This observation comes from before the time of climbing gyms and sport climbing, which can only have made the discrepancy greater, and it is no wonder that guides nowadays put some effort into developing short-roping technique.
Some lapses are inexcusable, however. A guide who lets the rope run through his device and drops a client is simply unfit for the job.
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taydude
Nov 8, 2009, 6:55 AM
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hahaha I've never thought about that. Client short ropes you and rips you off the wall but they don't know what they're doing so they end up dropping you. guides that lead are brave mofo's
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socalclimber
Nov 8, 2009, 12:29 PM
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taydude wrote: hahaha I've never thought about that. Client short ropes you and rips you off the wall but they don't know what they're doing so they end up dropping you. guides that lead are brave mofo's
When you are guiding and leading, you are soloing. Period.
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juliacoreyburns
Nov 12, 2009, 4:08 AM
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you should read Accidents in North American Mountaineering. the American Alpine Club publishes it each year. i believe you can order it (if not access it) from their website. it would be a great resource- and it is qute interesting to read.
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skiclimb
Nov 16, 2009, 2:47 AM
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A guides job is to keep everyone safe. A clients job is to get everyone killed. Some people are better at theirs jobs than others.
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pfwein
Nov 16, 2009, 4:08 AM
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maldaly wrote: Craig Luebben was killed while training for a Guide's exam. Lot's of other stories like that.
I'm having a hard time seeing how that's relevant to anything. Can't really blame non-existent clients.
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treemonkey
Nov 16, 2009, 4:43 AM
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Thanks for the new Signature
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cfnubbler
Nov 16, 2009, 2:14 PM
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socalclimber wrote: taydude wrote: hahaha I've never thought about that. Client short ropes you and rips you off the wall but they don't know what they're doing so they end up dropping you. guides that lead are brave mofo's When you are guiding and leading, you are soloing. Period.
With all due respect, I disagree. I know of several incidents where guides have been caught by clients' belays.
If a guide feels s/he is soloing when belayed by a client, the fault is with the guide. I would argue that the guide has done a lousy job of teaching the fundamental skill of belaying.
What I take to be the spirit of your point is valid: Guides should do everything in their power not to fall when working. We are not payed to whip left and right, possibly get hurt and strand our clients, ect. This is a fundamental part of risk management and client care and comfort.
That said, clients can be (and should be!) taught to belay effectively, and we do a disservice to ourselves and them if we fail to do so.
Clients are by definition inexperienced. With the occasional exceptions however, they are not hopeless fools who cannot be taught fundamental skills.
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socalclimber
Nov 16, 2009, 9:42 PM
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cfnubbler wrote: socalclimber wrote: taydude wrote: hahaha I've never thought about that. Client short ropes you and rips you off the wall but they don't know what they're doing so they end up dropping you. guides that lead are brave mofo's When you are guiding and leading, you are soloing. Period. With all due respect, I disagree. I know of several incidents where guides have been caught by clients' belays. If a guide feels s/he is soloing when belayed by a client, the fault is with the guide. I would argue that the guide has done a lousy job of teaching the fundamental skill of belaying. What I take to be the spirit of your point is valid: Guides should do everything in their power not to fall when working. We are not payed to whip left and right, possibly get hurt and strand our clients, ect. This is a fundamental part of risk management and client care and comfort. That said, clients can be (and should be!) taught to belay effectively, and we do a disservice to ourselves and them if we fail to do so. Clients are by definition inexperienced. With the occasional exceptions however, they are not hopeless fools who cannot be taught fundamental skills.
I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. I just tend to be more extreme in my expression of my thoughts than others.
While I agree it's important to teach a client to belay properly, I don't think it's smart to start leading with a client who's just learning to belay (unless there is a backup belayer). To do otherwise is foolish.
Once YOU (the guide) leaves the ground, you no longer have control over what the client is doing. You can bark orders all you like, but it's of little use when you 50 feet off the ground. This includes intermediate clients as well.
Most of my partners/friends are big names in the yosemite lore of guides. I have heard horror stories of what clients are capable of once you leave the ground. One in particular (think Yosemite Facelift) and you'll know who I am talking about, told me a tail of a client who started tearing down the anchor in the name of efficiency while he was just finishing a pitch (still on belay). If you think this guys is careless or not capable of assessing his clients then you're just being foolish for the sake of argument.
I'm not willing to take this risk with clients. I'll lead, but I'm not trusting them. Hence, why I only lead routes I'm very comfortable on.
This is why I say that you might as well be soloing.
I say all of this because a big part of risk management is being able to assess yourself and what you are getting the client into. It's every bit as important as assessing and training the client.
That's proper risk management.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Nov 16, 2009, 9:47 PM)
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