|
nh_ranger
Nov 7, 2009, 1:53 PM
Post #1 of 16
(8163 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 36
|
What is the most efficient way to manage leader tradeoffs when you are leading on double ropes with a second on the end of each rope? If one of the seconds is going to lead the next pitch, it seems like a rope management nightmare!
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Nov 7, 2009, 1:56 PM
Post #2 of 16
(8156 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
Flake both ropes separately.
|
|
|
|
|
shoo
Nov 7, 2009, 2:04 PM
Post #3 of 16
(8155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501
|
nh_ranger wrote: What is the most efficient way to manage leader tradeoffs when you are leading on double ropes with a second on the end of each rope? If one of the seconds is going to lead the next pitch, it seems like a rope management nightmare! If you absolutely must climb in a group of three, one person does all the leading, period. Otherwise, you'll have to constantly have people tie and untie, reflake, and untangle.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Nov 7, 2009, 2:39 PM
Post #4 of 16
(8138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
The best you could hope for would be to lead in blocks. One person gets 3 pitches, the next gets 3, then the next gets 3, etc. For a really long multipitch you might consider bringing ascenders. Example, first person leads, belays up second as usual but trails a static line. Once the second is up, he fixes it and the third begins jugging. The leader then puts the second on belay who proceeds to lead the next pitch. The guy on jugs should be up before the other guy is done leading. You can then untie and trade jugs or switch it up however you see fit. Or some other such nonsense. Without the need to haul a bunch of shit though, climbing in 3 is just slow.
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Nov 7, 2009, 5:08 PM
Post #5 of 16
(8092 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
If done right it's not that big of a deal...but will always be slower. Consider bvelaying one person up...they then take over the lead. Put the second follower on belay using a grigri attached to the anchor. The leader starts up and the follower below climbs up belayed by the grigri. If the pitch below is steep the follower can even maintain their own slack once they get far enough into the pitch. Or belay both folowers up at the same time, keeping the ropes seprate(at least 1 auto locking belay device is nice) then one of the 2 followers leads the next pitch. I've used both of these methods a bunch, neither is that tough to do. Speed will still come down to the skills of the climbers involved. josh
|
|
|
|
|
AntinJ
Nov 7, 2009, 6:56 PM
Post #6 of 16
(8044 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 4, 2008
Posts: 475
|
NH Ranger, For shorter routes (2-3 pitches) my climbing buddies and I usually have one leader per route. However if you really want to swing leads, stack the ropes separately as you bring up the seconds, without tangling them with belay anchors and untie/re-tie when everyone reaches the belay safely.
|
|
|
|
|
dugl33
Nov 7, 2009, 8:09 PM
Post #7 of 16
(8015 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2009
Posts: 740
|
As already mentioned, nice to lead in blocks, but if everyone consistently anchors independently of the ropes, its really not a big deal to untie and retie. Certainly not a nightmare. Build anchor with cordellete or similar, and belay both seconds climbing at the same time with a guide atc directly off anchor, with about 15 feet of offset between them. Each climber only cleans gear they come to on their own line. [Ropes should be rated for climbing en fleche, as the frenchies call it. (meaning doubles, not twins, typically)] Each second clips in with slings, PAS, or similar upon arrival. New leader ties into other lead line, taken from the other follower. (already tied to one, right?) Old leader simply unties one of two ropes and passes to other next pitch follower. Reflake if necessary and you're off. If everyone is tuned into what's going on, its quick. You have three people to organize and manage the ropes. New leader is probably organizing the rack, while someone else reflakes. Also, personally I think separate rope stacks are over-rated. Quicker and easier to reflake (into a single non-separated pile*) or just let ropes adjust on the feed out. *edit add for clarity
(This post was edited by dugl33 on Nov 7, 2009, 11:09 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
patto
Nov 7, 2009, 8:35 PM
Post #8 of 16
(7992 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
angry wrote: The best you could hope for would be to lead in blocks. One person gets 3 pitches, the next gets 3, then the next gets 3, etc. For a really long multipitch you might consider bringing ascenders. Example, first person leads, belays up second as usual but trails a static line. Once the second is up, he fixes it and the third begins jugging. The leader then puts the second on belay who proceeds to lead the next pitch. The guy on jugs should be up before the other guy is done leading. You can then untie and trade jugs or switch it up however you see fit. Or some other such nonsense. Without the need to haul a bunch of shit though, climbing in 3 is just slow. WTF!? Ascenders!? Haven't you heard of autoblock belay devices? I see it get repeated over and over on this site that climbing in 3s is slow. This just isn't the case and obviously is just repeated by the inexperienced. (inexperienced in 3s) The other day myself and two others did a 9 pitch 5.10a in 4 hours. I'm not sure how fast you guys normally move but I would consider reasonably fast. Both followers get belayed at the same time with an autoblock. It adds maybe 5 minutes to each pitch at the most.
(This post was edited by patto on Nov 7, 2009, 8:36 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
marc801
Nov 7, 2009, 8:50 PM
Post #9 of 16
(7984 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2005
Posts: 2806
|
patto wrote: I see it get repeated over and over on this site that climbing in 3s is slow. This just isn't the case and obviously is just repeated by the inexperienced. (inexperienced in 3s) My regular partners and I, climbing in a party of 3 with two single ropes, each person climbing individually, regularly climbed routes faster than many parties of 2. Quite simply, we had our system dialed in, swung leads, managed ropes appropriately, and kept our belay change-overs to under 2 minutes. We also never racked anything on our harness other than perhaps a biner or two of larger cams. Everything was on gear slings. This has a huge impact on minimizing change-over time at belays.
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Nov 7, 2009, 9:51 PM
Post #10 of 16
(7955 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
Another vote for not a big deal, certainly not a nightmare, only marginally slower than two. Doug133 has already said what to do. Leading in blocks isn't necessarily the best idea and may well be slightly slower because the ropes will have to be reflaked. If they've been piled or flaked right to begin with and a second takes over the lead, then no rearranging will be necessary. Trying to create separate rope piles while belaying, or sorting the rope into two piles later is a waste of time. The two ropes will feed fine out of a single pile. The one thing that I've found helpful, even though everyone sneers at it (until they've tried it) is using Metolius rope hooks for flaking the ropes. It is much better than lap coils over the tie-in, eliminating the need (or at least the desirability) of arranging loops in descending size order. I find it better to actually throw ordinary coils on the hook rather than alternating lap coils. You then simply lift each coil off the hook when needed, keeping fifteen feet or so of rope hanging.
|
|
|
|
|
dugl33
Nov 7, 2009, 10:44 PM
Post #11 of 16
(7932 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2009
Posts: 740
|
rgold wrote: Leading in blocks isn't necessarily the best idea and may well be slightly slower because the ropes will have to be reflaked. If they've been piled or flaked right to begin with and a second takes over the lead, then no rearranging will be necessary. True. I guess when I really think about it, the only time blocking is really required is when there is only one leader. Otherwise, makes no big diff either way. Nice when its cold though, less time at the belay, smaller temp swings from climbing to sitting around. Generally, I'm only reflaking if the ropes are clustering for some reason, even when leading in blocks. Usually with blocks, I'll do the big rope stack pancake flip if at a ledge, carefully picking up the rope pile and flipping it over. With rope stacked in a sling, you can usually just roll the whole stack to put the lead end back on top. Metolious rope hook would work great for this. If in doubt, I'll reflake -- more paranoid about it if the next pitch is difficult or run-out.
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Nov 7, 2009, 11:08 PM
Post #12 of 16
(7916 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
cut the rope on one of your seconds. Problem solved.
|
|
|
|
|
jkd159
Nov 7, 2009, 11:49 PM
Post #14 of 16
(7882 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 29, 2007
Posts: 64
|
+1 on Dugl33 and RG's responses. I've done this a ton. Leading in blocks is preferred, but retying takes very little time. Only two rope ends need to be retied. Be sure you are anchored with something other than the rope when retying. I will say that I like to reflake the rope each pitch. The time it takes is much less than the time to fix a rope cluster caused by trying to flip two piles. Two seconds coming up at a different rate means that you have to create two separate stacks when they are coming up, but you can flake back into a single stack before the leader starts up the next pitch. Reflaking can be the job of whomever isn't busy swapping gear or preparing to belay. It can take almost no extra time.
|
|
|
|
|
josiahdood
Nov 30, 2009, 9:51 AM
Post #15 of 16
(7464 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 4, 2005
Posts: 51
|
As far as rope management goes, if you are belaying at ledge, and using twin/half ropes, belay both 2nd's up at the same time and feed the rope into a (relatively) neat pile. When they get up to the belay, simply take the pile, and turn it over - now you're ready to lead the next pitch. It takes a little practice, but it is faster than hell and works.
|
|
|
|
|
qtm
Nov 30, 2009, 9:11 PM
Post #16 of 16
(7371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 8, 2004
Posts: 548
|
josiahdood wrote: As far as rope management goes, if you are belaying at ledge, and using twin/half ropes, belay both 2nd's up at the same time and feed the rope into a (relatively) neat pile. When they get up to the belay, simply take the pile, and turn it over - now you're ready to lead the next pitch. It takes a little practice, but it is faster than hell and works. The OP asked about swapping leads with a 2nd, not doing block leads. To swap leads, you wouldn't flip the pile(s) over. Just move the rope from the 3rd to the new leader (ensuring the 3rd is on the anchor of course), and move your end of the same rope to the 3rd. While it's nice to keep the ropes neat, you also have a spare set of hands at the belay... if there's enough room on the ledge to pile up the rope, there's enough room for the 3rd to pull rope out the piles and remove any tangles. I like stacking the rope over the edge rather than in piles on the ground. Long to short loops for swapping leads, shorter to longer for block leads. Just keeps the rope out of the way of other parties who are rapping through or sharing a belay ledge.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|