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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 10, 2009, 3:14 PM
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Hey everyone, so I am getting some ropes and just have a question of curiosity.
I love the grigri for its safety if something should happen to the belayer (hit by a rock etc) but I also love half ropes for their safety against cuts and long falls from pulling slack etc, so is there a belay devices out there to work like a grigri but for half ropes???
I had found an old page with a Trango TRE but I don't think they make that anymore, whatever it was.
Thanks for the help !!
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acorneau
Nov 10, 2009, 3:59 PM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: Hey everyone, so I am getting some ropes and just have a question of curiosity. I love the grigri for its safety if something should happen to the belayer (hit by a rock etc) but I also love half ropes for their safety against cuts and long falls from pulling slack etc, so is there a belay devices out there to work like a grigri but for half ropes??? I had found an old page with a Trango TRE but I don't think they make that anymore, whatever it was. Thanks for the help !!
The TRE Sirius wasn't a Trango product, TRE was the company (German) and the device name was the Sirius.
http://storrick.cnchost.com/...es/MiscBelay772.html
You are correct that they don't make them any more.
Don't know of any other dual-rope device like it.
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qwert
Nov 10, 2009, 3:59 PM
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I am not going into the whole "if you think you are safe just because you bought "the safest" doesnt automatically mean you are safe ..." talk, and simply hope you know that.
As far is i know there is no autolocker for halves. Maybe the hewbolt double, but that is also out of production i think.
the TRE would kinda work, but it is not an autolocker! I think the term is "assisted locker" or something. It has a very high braking power, and there is a chance that i will lock a fall automatically, but that is not garanteed!
Aslo with (thin) halv ropes, it doesnt lock up very often. Its still a nice device, and i would guess it can offer some additional safety over a standart tube, but its not an autolocker.
also not produced anymore. Edelrid has bought the patent, and used it for their zapomat, and rumors are that they will make a double rope version of it, but when?
Maybe take a look around here: http://storrick.cnchost.com/...e/VerticalHome.shtml
Probably about every belay device on the planet to be found on this page.
qwert
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 10, 2009, 4:31 PM
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Well yes I know I am not completely safe, but every added benefit helps :)
This is a real shame that they don't make either of these two products, especially the hewbolt anymore. It seems to be exactly what I am looking for. Having a completely redundant climbing system is attractive to me...
Is there somewhere a hewbolt can be purchased I wonder?
Thanks !
Come on British people, masters of the double rope :)
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acorneau
Nov 10, 2009, 4:36 PM
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Ok, just thought about something...
Has anyone tried using an auto-blocking device (R3, ATC-G) putting the "anchoring" biner on their harness and leaving the rope biner loose? Basically an upside-down version of it's autoblock function.
It seems that as long as there is no weight on the rope you can feed slack to the leader, but if they fall you can pull up on the break side (a la Münter hitch or TRE) and it will lock up. If the belayer was incapacitated then there is a chance that the autoblock would lock up on it's own (purely conjecture on my part).
Of course, lowering a climber in this configuration would be a pain in the ass, but it's just a thought.
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johnwesely
Nov 10, 2009, 4:39 PM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: Having a completely redundant climbing system is attractive to me...
Good luck with that.
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 10, 2009, 4:42 PM
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I had thought about and went to the petzl reverso instructions to see if they had ANYTHING on it but of course they don't. I imagine its possible though like you say.. although the difficulty of lowering I think rules this out for normal use.
Call me crazy but has anyone thought about two grigri's next to each other or two cinches?
Not that I am going to try it but in my head it seems completely controllable with half ropes. You use the same technique for belaying a leader with one grigri except you might have to press the cam with your thumb on the grigri that is Over the other, little awkward maybe but probably doable... of course both ropes in brake hand at all times...
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 10, 2009, 4:57 PM
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johnwesely wrote: Good luck with that.
Why the sarcasm? It is completely possible for ever piece of gear in the chain to be redundant in some way, and mostly is except usually the rope, biners and harness. Of course anchor designs are redundant, as are your draws in leads.
I use a strap of webbing around me like a swami belt to make my harness redundant, and half ropes so that bit is redundant (of course the lower drag is nice too :D). Biners are easy to make redundant where needed on anchors.
I don't know why anyone Wouldn't want such a system... of course there are those that don't value their life over climbing haha. I still don't know why most people don't use half ropes. Learning curve I imagine, but I think that is a poor excuse as are most reasons for accidents in climbing (which have been involved with every peice of equipment through the years).
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qtm
Nov 10, 2009, 5:08 PM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: Call me crazy but has anyone thought about two grigri's next to each other or two cinches?
Won't work with skinny half ropes. For skinny singles, you have to treat the GriGri like an ATC, even more so for skinner halfs.
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qwert
Nov 10, 2009, 5:16 PM
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qtm wrote: jonathan.gaillard wrote: Call me crazy but has anyone thought about two grigri's next to each other or two cinches? Won't work with skinny half ropes. For skinny singles, you have to treat the GriGri like an ATC, even more so for skinner halfs.
The chinch is probably better, but handling would still be a pain in the ass.
qwert
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johnwesely
Nov 10, 2009, 5:16 PM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: Why the sarcasm? It is completely possible for ever piece of gear in the chain to be redundant in some way, and mostly is except usually the rope, biners and harness. Of course anchor designs are redundant, as are your draws in leads. I use a strap of webbing around me like a swami belt to make my harness redundant, and half ropes so that bit is redundant (of course the lower drag is nice too :D). Biners are easy to make redundant where needed on anchors. I don't know why anyone Wouldn't want such a system... of course there are those that don't value their life over climbing haha. I still don't know why most people don't use half ropes. Learning curve I imagine, but I think that is a poor excuse as are most reasons for accidents in climbing (which have been involved with every peice of equipment through the years).
User error will get you killed, not backing up your harness with webbing will not. Plus I am sarcastic person, and this is the internet.
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 10, 2009, 5:25 PM
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I don't think backing ANYTHING up is excessive, since every peice of climbing gear has failed at some point, often times in an unexpected way. I have read of harness failures (belay loop, and other parts), rope failures (cuts and snaps), biner failures (in lots of ways), bolt failures etc etc...
And thats not even including failures based on user error.
---
Ya I forgot about the smaller ropes being an issue, how about the Faders SUM, I believe that handles 9mm ropes just fine, but I haven't used one. Although I do like the aspect that it pinches the rope in two places, less rope damage.
Just to see how easy it is, does anyone have two grigris? I only have one and I am wondering how easy it is to hold both ropes and touch either cam (or handle on devices like SUM) to feed rope quickly on only one rope.
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qwert
Nov 10, 2009, 5:33 PM
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Generally speaking backups and redundancy are a good thing. Hence most climbers do it in some way or another.
But backing up you harness? Please correct me if i am wrong, but there is no way a harness will fail, apart from uzser error.
And with some of your ideas, you will make the chance for user error bigger!
Take you 2grigris idea. I dare to say that the chances that you fuck up with that, and injure/kill someone in the process are much higher than a single rope or a single harness failing.
Again: I do see you point for double ropes, and also can understand why you would want a "rockffall proof" belay, but dont overdo it!
qwert
ps.: and prepare to get some really harsh replys!
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coastal_climber
Nov 10, 2009, 5:47 PM
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I think you need to rely on yourself, not just on your gear.
Have fun belaying with 2 gri gri's if you ever get into ice climbing.
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 10, 2009, 5:50 PM
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Has anyone used the SUM? According to their advertising, one can feed rope quickly without touching the lever, hopefully that is so!
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 10, 2009, 5:55 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: I think you need to rely on yourself, not just on your gear. Have fun belaying with 2 gri gri's if you ever get into ice climbing.
I won't ever ice climb :P Or trad climb for that matter, I prefer sport. Everyone has their risk tolerance.
And of course if we didn't rely on our gear we would all already be dead, that is like the silly motto "don't fall".
There has always been some resistance to things that are safer in climbing, and I will never understand that. Obviously testing needs to be done extensively by competent engineers before things are put into practice, but half ropes are a great example on human convenience going before safety.
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bill413
Nov 10, 2009, 5:58 PM
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acorneau wrote: Ok, just thought about something... Has anyone tried using an auto-blocking device (R3, ATC-G) putting the "anchoring" biner on their harness and leaving the rope biner loose? Basically an upside-down version of it's autoblock function. It seems that as long as there is no weight on the rope you can feed slack to the leader, but if they fall you can pull up on the break side (a la Münter hitch or TRE) and it will lock up. If the belayer was incapacitated then there is a chance that the autoblock would lock up on it's own (purely conjecture on my part). Of course, lowering a climber in this configuration would be a pain in the ass, but it's just a thought.
For the reverso to block up, it needs to be able to move freely & orient correctly to the ropes. I'm not sure I'd trust it to do that all the time while on the belay loop, what with other things going on there.
Plus, as you said, lowering will be a PITA.
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coastal_climber
Nov 10, 2009, 6:03 PM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: coastal_climber wrote: I think you need to rely on yourself, not just on your gear. And of course if we didn't rely on our gear we would all already be dead, that is like the silly motto "don't fall".
But the proper equipment, along with good judgement can prevent most, but not all, climbing accidents.
jonathan.gaillard wrote: There has always been some resistance to things that are safer in climbing, and I will never understand that.
From your perspective, obviously.
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qwert
Nov 10, 2009, 6:16 PM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: I won't ever ice climb :P Or trad climb for that matter, I prefer sport. Everyone has their risk tolerance.
There is nothing really "wrong" with that, but be prepared to have them clusterfuck!
Also the halfs softer catch can be an issue on short routes (longer falls!), and you wont be really redundant anyways most of the time.
If one rope gets cut (not likely with a single, but a valid concern nevertheless) all the bolts you clipped that rope into are "away". so say this happens above your 3rd bolt. so you fall into your 2nd, with lots of slack, a high stretch rope and a belayer wo cant pull in slack, because the grigris lock up, and he ist to confused which rope to pull.
Guess where that will end ...
In reply to: There has always been some resistance to things that are safer in climbing, and I will never understand that. Obviously testing needs to be done extensively by competent engineers before things are put into practice, but half ropes are a great example on human convenience going before safety.
Also the "i am safe!" mindset is a rather dangerous one ...
qwert
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 10, 2009, 6:31 PM
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qwert wrote: So you really want to use half ropes for sport? single pitch sport even i guess? There is nothing really "wrong" with that, but be prepared to have them clusterfuck! Also the halfs softer catch can be an issue on short routes (longer falls!), and you wont be really redundant anyways most of the time. If one rope gets cut (not likely with a single, but a valid concern nevertheless) all the bolts you clipped that rope into are "away". so say this happens above your 3rd bolt. so you fall into your 2nd, with lots of slack, a high stretch rope and a belayer wo cant pull in slack, because the grigris lock up, and he ist to confused which rope to pull. Guess where that will end ...
ALIVE. What happens when a single rope gets cut, well that would be death.
Why would there be any slack? There shouldn't ever be excessive slack if the belayer is doing his job.
As far as I have read, the SUM can be fed without touching the lever effectively, so I think this might be possible to handle, with training, but would require some testing.
qwert wrote: Climbing gear gets safer and safer all the time. Most problems are due to human error. And you give human error a greater chance, the more complicated you make something. Also the "i am safe!" mindset is a rather dangerous one ... qwert
I am not in that mindset as I have said. And your right human error is the greatest cause of accidents, but equipment accidents and especially belay accidents DO happen and the problem with our sport is the worst consequences are higher than other sports. You don't die in soccer, just break stuff. So I think this kind of scrutiny and redundancy necessary, but there will always be nutty soloers.
If you indeed can feed SUMs without hitting the lever, well the operation should be as simple as a tube. I will go to the store and see how they are.
(This post was edited by jonathan.gaillard on Nov 10, 2009, 6:45 PM)
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coastal_climber
Nov 10, 2009, 6:35 PM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: qwert wrote: So you really want to use half ropes for sport? single pitch sport even i guess? There is nothing really "wrong" with that, but be prepared to have them clusterfuck! Also the halfs softer catch can be an issue on short routes (longer falls!), and you wont be really redundant anyways most of the time. If one rope gets cut (not likely with a single, but a valid concern nevertheless) all the bolts you clipped that rope into are "away". so say this happens above your 3rd bolt. so you fall into your 2nd, with lots of slack, a high stretch rope and a belayer wo cant pull in slack, because the grigris lock up, and he ist to confused which rope to pull. Guess where that will end ... ALIVE. What happens when a single rope gets cut, well that would be death. Why would there be any slack? There shouldn't ever be excessive slack if the belayer is doing his job. As far as I have read, the SUM can be feed without touching the lever effectively, so I think this might be possible to handle, with training, but would require some testing. qwert wrote: Climbing gear gets safer and safer all the time. Most problems are due to human error. And you give human error a greater chance, the more complicated you make something. Also the "i am safe!" mindset is a rather dangerous one ... qwert I am not in that mindset as I have said. And your right human error is the greatest cause of accidents, but equipment accidents and especially belay accidents DO happen and the problem with our sport is the worst consequences are higher than other sports. You don't die in soccer, just break stuff. So I think this kind of scrutiny and redundancy necessary, but there will always be nutty soloers. If you indeed can feed SUMs without hitting the lever, well the operation should be as simple as a tube. I will go to the store and see how they are.
Wow, you are a control freak. What's it like being wrong?
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jonathan.gaillard
Nov 10, 2009, 6:44 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: Wow, you are a control freak. What's it like being wrong?
Are you just here to insult or do you have something useful to add?
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dugl33
Nov 10, 2009, 6:51 PM
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qtm wrote: jonathan.gaillard wrote: Call me crazy but has anyone thought about two grigri's next to each other or two cinches? Won't work with skinny half ropes. For skinny singles, you have to treat the GriGri like an ATC, even more so for skinner halfs.
Petzl grigris are not suitable for ropes less than 9.8 mm, per the manufacturer.
Get a guide atc, and use it in high friction mode. You can use it in autoblock mode to belay the second, for the leader, well, just hold on.
I faced a situation similar to your worry once, where the second pitch had zero pro worth a shit right off the belay, and this was also a sustained crux section. We anchored in a way that I was about 15 feet below the bolts, clipped the lead rope through the anchor, and I tied a back up knot a ways down the rope, in case the leader landed on me and knocked me out. You could also extend the belay device with a sling, and put a friction knot such as a klemheist* on the rope below the atc and attach to a leg loop. It would act as an extra hand if you were incapacitated. Of course, this is a pain in the ass, and pointless unless the situation really demands it.
* edit add, actually, a knot called the autoblock would feed the easiest.
of course, the load is upward, so picture this upside down.
* second edit add -- most of my climbing on two ropes has been on twins, where both ropes are clipped into each piece, and feed out together. For doubles clipped alternately this idea would be beyond stupid.
(This post was edited by dugl33 on Nov 11, 2009, 11:27 PM)
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coastal_climber
Nov 10, 2009, 6:55 PM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: coastal_climber wrote: Wow, you are a control freak. What's it like being wrong? Are you just here to insult or do you have something useful to add?
Both.
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